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ladyD

Wex, Manderly, and Glover Lied to Davos

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Posted (edited)

There was no way Wex was in that tree. Too many inconsistencies like hearing 6 voices? If he was in the tree he would have heard 7 voices because Lewyn was still alive and speaking. Manderly may or may not know. I did a video about this but want to know if anyone else pulled out this detail. Where did he go? He also said that Ramsey's men did a sweep through the Godswood to kill survivors but the only dead person in the Godswood that Bran & Co. encounter is a dying Lewyn. It seems like Wex went somewhere and then came back to assess the situation and maybe track the Stark kids?
 

Case in writing :-) : @Dorian Martell's son

Remember when Bran, Osha, Rickon, Hodor, Bran, Meera, Summer, and Shaggydog all did that circuit in WF? Well they saw the same things that Manderly mentions to Davos, with the exception of Rodrik being killed by Boltons. None of the other info had to be witnessed first hand and could be surmised from reviewing the site at least 3 days later - which is what Bran and company do. Remember Bran and Rickon were in Summer and Shaggydog for 3 days watching winterfell burn and then smolder out.

 

Let’s review what everyone sees

 

Wex actually sees Rodrick killed from the battlements

Bran notes the Winterfell men when he comes out of the crypts and immediately blames Theon

But Osha notes the Ironborn being killed and takes the time to flip one over to view his sigil

 

They also pass a burned man with no weapon burned in front of the sept with his hands drawn up looking like he was ready to punch anyone that came near him - but that could easily be someone on their knees begging shot with an arrow and burned.

 

But whats most important here for the unraveling of the manderly lie is  what they dont see. What they don’t see is bodies in the Gods wood.

 

And What Bran and company don’t see directly conflicts with Wex’s story and leads me to believe that he could not have been there when they left. And must have used his tracking ability to piece the information together.

 

Hell, we saw how he helped Theon when they were tracking Bran and Rickon- What stopped Wex from running and simply going back to Winterfell to track where everyone had gone? Especially if it were advantageous for him and the iron born? To capture Bran and Rickon?

 

So According to Manderly- Wex sees Ramsey kill Rodrik Cassel - witnesses the movements of the bolton men through the castle- and then he books it up the heart tree and stays up there for a minimum of 2 days maximum of 3 - we know because Bran is in Summer watching Winterfell burn and smolder out for that long.

 

Wex then supposedly follows Osha and Rickon somewhere and Shaggydog doesn't smell him - and he knows they ended up on Skagos because, we don’t know. I mean they could have taken a ship anywhere how does he know it was to Skagos?

 

But if nothing else I have said is convincing or It makes no sense.

Answer this If the Bolton forces searched the woods twice, and murdered who they found why the hell didn’t they find Master Luwin? I mean he literally dragged himself from the great hall where he got the spear shoved through his shoulder all the way to the Godswood...Seriously?

Not to mention - on Bran’s circuit around Winterfell - the broken tower is unscathed and so is the Gods wood. Jojen mentions the power of living wood- but what about the tower? If you ask me - the Boltons basically tired of burning the place out and stopped just short of the already ruined broken tower and the Godswood.

So we have an unburnt Godswood and an unarmed and dying witness who can still spread the tale- this means Ramsey's men didn’t go inside the Godswood at all.   Lord Manderly is lying. Or Wex? Or Both?

 

Additionally, if Wex was there he would have counted 7 voices instead of six. He counts 6 including Bran and Rickon, Meera and Jojen, and Hodor and Osha because they along with the wolves are the only TRACKS he finds leading away from the Luwin’s dead body - which if Wex was present in WF when the gates where open he would have probably seen Luwin stabbed and not assumed he was killed in a godswood sweep. And again if he was in the tree when everyone split up - he would have heard 7 people because LUWIN was alive and speaking!

And Manderly, he never tells us how Wex came to him- and gives no details on how Wex knows (a woman) “Osha”  and Bran went to Skagos. And He’s also leaving out the little detail that his own forces were present at the battle at winterfell/in the wintertown---he has men that would have returned home and told him the tale first hand - all though confused. 

I just find it hard to believe that a mute Ironborn pre-teen would feel comfortable going to Manderly on his own like that to give up his only bargaining chip - the whereabouts of Rickon. 

Again, thanks for commenting. New in the forum so my apologies for the length and again, you do not have to watch the video - I just wanted to know if anyone noticed the inconsistencies from Wex and Manderly and if so what does this mean?. The video is just a lot of granular info about what I think happened. Also, I can't get bold to turn off, so if there's a trick for that I'd really appreciate you guys letting me know how. I think it's stuck because I copy and pasted? 

Edited by ladyD
i was asked to put it in writing, not sure which post to put it in so I added it here so everyone could see it

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There is no reason to believe he was lying. Although it may seem improbable, it is a plot device. Also, who has time to watch a 38 minute video on wether wex is lying or not?  Make your case in writing so every single point can be responded to. 

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11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is no reason to believe he was lying. Although it may seem improbable, it is a plot device.

:agree:

We also have the dream - in ADwD Jon I I think - where Ghost/Jon sees Shaggy and a unicorn. So why would Wex lie about how/where he came across Bran & co and learned about Rickon going to Skagos, but still pass on the correct info? It serves no purpose whatsoever. 

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Posted (edited)

Well, the fact that he said he only heard 6 voices when there would have been 7 and his description of the killings in the Godswood are my reasons for asking. What about those? Can anyone actually comment on those inconsistencies? Why did he say he heard 6 voices when there were 7? Why did he say there was a godswoods sweep where Ramsey's men killed men in the Godswood if Bran and Co. didn't see any other bodies in the Godswood? These 2 things he said are obviously lies...

I didn't say anything about Skagos (I think Wex tracked them to a certain point and the rest of the info comes from Manderly?) and I specifically said "if you want to watch it" as in you don't have to, I just wanted your opinions on the inconsistencies so you guys def do not have to watch all that - but I think it's possible that Wex simply tracked them there...we know he's a great tracker. I think the purpose would be to keep Davos out of the fact that there is some collusion between the Ironborn and Manderly. Thanks for your input anyways. 

Edited by ladyD
clarifying for kissedbyfire

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is no reason to believe he was lying. Although it may seem improbable, it is a plot device. Also, who has time to watch a 38 minute video on wether wex is lying or not?  Make your case in writing so every single point can be responded to. 

3

Case in writing :-) :

Remember when Bran, Osha, Rickon, Hodor, Bran, Meera, Summer, and Shaggydog all did that circuit in WF? Well they saw the same things that Manderly mentions to Davos, with the exception of Rodrik being killed by Boltons. None of the other info had to be witnessed first hand and could be surmised from reviewing the site at least 3 days later - which is what Bran and company do. Remember Bran and Rickon were in Summer and Shaggydog for 3 days watching winterfell burn and then smolder out.

 

Let’s review what everyone sees

 

Wex actually sees Rodrick killed from the battlements

Bran notes the Winterfell men when he comes out of the crypts and immediately blames Theon

But Osha notes the Ironborn being killed and takes the time to flip one over to view his sigil

 

They also pass a burned man with no weapon burned in front of the sept with his hands drawn up looking like he was ready to punch anyone that came near him - but that could easily be someone on their knees begging shot with an arrow and burned.

 

But whats most important here for the unraveling of the manderly lie is  what they dont see. What they don’t see is bodies in the Gods wood.

 

And What Bran and company don’t see directly conflicts with Wex’s story and leads me to believe that he could not have been there when they left. And must have used his tracking ability to piece the information together.

 

Hell, we saw how he helped Theon when they were tracking Bran and Rickon- What stopped Wex from running and simply going back to Winterfell to track where everyone had gone? Especially if it were advantageous for him and the iron born? To capture Bran and Rickon?

 

So According to Manderly- Wex sees Ramsey kill Rodrik Cassel - witnesses the movements of the bolton men through the castle- and then he books it up the heart tree and stays up there for a minimum of 2 days maximum of 3 - we know because Bran is in Summer watching Winterfell burn and smolder out for that long.

 

Wex then supposedly follows Osha and Rickon somewhere and Shaggydog doesn't smell him - and he knows they ended up on Skagos because, we don’t know. I mean they could have taken a ship anywhere how does he know it was to Skagos?

 

But if nothing else I have said is convincing or It makes no sense.

Answer this If the Bolton forces searched the woods twice, and murdered who they found why the hell didn’t they find Master Luwin? I mean he literally dragged himself from the great hall where he got the spear shoved through his shoulder all the way to the Godswood...Seriously?

Not to mention - on Bran’s circuit around Winterfell - the broken tower is unscathed and so is the Gods wood. Jojen mentions the power of living wood- but what about the tower? If you ask me - the Boltons basically tired of burning the place out and stopped just short of the already ruined broken tower and the Godswood.

So we have an unburnt Godswood and an unarmed and dying witness who can still spread the tale- this means Ramsey's men didn’t go inside the Godswood at all.   Lord Manderly is lying. Or Wex? Or Both?

 

Additionally, if Wex was there he would have counted 7 voices instead of six. He counts 6 including Bran and Rickon, Meera and Jojen, and Hodor and Osha because they along with the wolves are the only TRACKS he finds leading away from the Luwin’s dead body - which if Wex was present in WF when the gates where open he would have probably seen Luwin stabbed and not assumed he was killed in a godswood sweep. And again if he was in the tree when everyone split up - he would have heard 7 people because LUWIN was alive and speaking!

And Manderly, he never tells us how Wex came to him- and gives no details on how Wex knows (a woman) “Osha”  and Bran went to Skagos. And He’s also leaving out the little detail that his own forces were present at the battle at winterfell/in the wintertown---he has men that would have returned home and told him the tale first hand - all though confused. 

I just find it hard to believe that a mute Ironborn pre-teen would feel comfortable going to Manderly on his own like that to give up his only bargaining chip - the whereabouts of Rickon. 

Again, thanks for commenting. New in the forum so my apologies for the length and again, you do not have to watch the video - I just wanted to know if anyone noticed the inconsistencies from Wex and Manderly and if so what does this mean?. The video is just a lot of granular info about what I think happened. Also, I can't get bold to turn off, so if there's a trick for that I'd really appreciate you guys letting me know how. I think it's stuck because I copy and pasted? 

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Oh I believe Manderly was lying, just about swearing fealty to Stannis once Davos recovers Rickon.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Oh I believe Manderly was lying, just about swearing fealty to Stannis once Davos recovers Rickon.

Oh yea he's definitely lying about that. The whole north is lying about that one. I agree! 

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30 minutes ago, ladyD said:

Why did he say he heard 6 voices when there were 7? Why did he say there was a godswoods sweep where Ramsey's men killed men in the Godswood if Bran and Co. didn't see any other bodies in the Godswood?

Wex is supposedly a mute. He cannot speak.

The assumption is that while Wex was up the tree above Luwin, Wex saw Osha, Hodor, Rickon, Bran, and two direwolves.  Then Wex followed Osha, Rickon and Shaggy. Then Wex somehow ended up in Manderly’s grasp.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV     Wex held up five fingers, tapped each one with the dagger, then folded four away and tapped the last again.   "Six of them," asked Davos. "There were six."       "Two of them Ned Stark's murdered sons."

A person would need to read the DwD chapter to get the context of what was being discussed.   I have problems with the Davos, Manderly, Wex stuff for reasons you have not mentioned.

I didn't watch the video.

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3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Wex is supposedly a mute. He cannot speak.

The assumption is that while Wex was up the tree above Luwin, Wex saw Osha, Hodor, Rickon, Bran, and two direwolves.  Then Wex followed Osha, Rickon and Shaggy. Then Wex somehow ended up in Manderly’s grasp.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV     Wex held up five fingers, tapped each one with the dagger, then folded four away and tapped the last again.   "Six of them," asked Davos. "There were six."       "Two of them Ned Stark's murdered sons."

A person would need to read the DwD chapter to get the context of what was being discussed.   I have problems with the Davos, Manderly, Wex stuff for reasons you have not mentioned.

I didn't watch the video.

Wex is mute yes (i believe he's mute) but according to Manderly he said he heard 6 voices. You have part of the quote up there. So he "communicated" that he heard 6 voices from the tree but there were 7 voices not 6. If he was in the tree he would have heard Luwin. There were 6 pairs of tracks...but there were 7 voices. What other problems do you have with the Manderly story? I think the whole thing is weird and don't worry about the video - it's not required I just want to know what everyone thinks about the inconsistencies of Wex and Manderly and I guess Glover too technically. 

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How can Manderly know all that stuff if Wex wasn't in the tree? I'm not going to say Manderly told Davos the truth in every regard, but at least part of it was likely true or he had some other source.

I never watch video's about this stuff, I don't think video is a good media to discuss literature. 

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I think the six is in reference to the number of people he saw leave the castle.  And even if he heard only 6 voices, one of the people was Hodor, who isn't very talkative.  I don't have the books handy, so I don't know if he said "Hodor" during that time.

As for the rest of his tale, I too have problems with it, especially in how he knows they went to Skagos, since all he would have seen was a boat's departure.  I expect the answer lies in the difficulty in getting a coherent story out of an illiterate mute more than anything else.  My guess is that he heard the name "Skagos" mentioned.  I am firmly of the belief that Osha and Rickon are indeed on Skagos, and suspect that they went there without Manderly collusion.

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8 minutes ago, Makk said:

How can Manderly know all that stuff if Wex wasn't in the tree? I'm not going to say Manderly told Davos the truth in every regard, but at least part of it was likely true or he had some other source.

I never watch video's about this stuff, I don't think video is a good media to discuss literature. 

Remember when Bran, Osha, Rickon, Hodor, Bran, Meera, Summer, and Shaggydog all did that circuit in WF? Well they saw the same things that Manderly mentions to Davos, with the exception of Rodrik being killed by Boltons. None of the other info had to be witnessed first hand and could be surmised from reviewing the site at least 3 days later - which is what Bran and company do. Remember Bran and Rickon were in Summer and Shaggydog for 3 days watching winterfell burn and then smolder out.

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4 minutes ago, ladyD said:

You have part of the quote up there

Hey now, peace to ya ----

The seven are -----

Luwin, Osha, Bran, Rickon, Jojen, Meera and Hodor.

 

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9 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think the six is in reference to the number of people he saw leave the castle.  And even if he heard only 6 voices, one of the people was Hodor, who isn't very talkative.  I don't have the books handy, so I don't know if he said "Hodor" during that time.

As for the rest of his tale, I too have problems with it, especially in how he knows they went to Skagos, since all he would have seen was a boat's departure.  I expect the answer lies in the difficulty in getting a coherent story out of an illiterate mute more than anything else.  My guess is that he heard the name "Skagos" mentioned.  I am firmly of the belief that Osha and Rickon are indeed on Skagos, and suspect that they went there without Manderly collusion.

I agree!! They are on Skagos and did it without Manderly but a mute kid who is an enemy of the state lol going over to Manderly and expecting a fair shake after what everyone believes Theon did is def unbelievable. And how did Shaggy not hear or smell Wex. Hodor does say Hodor when Luwin tells them Hodor has to stay close to Bran to be his legs. Everyone speaks in the exchange - 7 voices. It makes no sense Wex went there without a person to help speak for him though, totally agree. 

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9 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Hey now, peace to ya ----

The seven are -----

Luwin, Osha, Bran, Rickon, Jojen, Meera and Hodor.

 

That's exactly my point...if Wex was actually there he would have heard all 7 of them speaking. He wasn't there he found 6 pairs of tracks leaving WF and Luwins dead body :-). 

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13 minutes ago, ladyD said:

That's exactly my point...if Wex was actually there he would have heard all 7 of them speaking. He wasn't there he found 6 pairs of tracks leaving WF and Luwins dead body :-). 

Then how did he know about Skagos?

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Then how did he know about Skagos?

How would he know if he was there? How could he have known that the ship or boat or whatever he saw Osha and Rickon and a huge direwolf get on was going to Skagos? Osha wouldn't have told him...he's the enemy. And how do you smuggle a direwolf onto a ship? I think Manderly found out because of all the ships and talk coming into and out of WH. I don't have an answer for how they know where they ended up but if Wex was there he would have heard all 7 voices, would have seen Luwin get stabbed and not assumed he was killed in a sweep, and if Ramsey's crew did sweep the godswood they would not have left someone alive who could tell what really happened. They've got to be lying. I just don't know why - that's what I was hoping you guys could fill in as experts who have been analyzing this for years. But they are lying. Wex wasn't there. 

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14 minutes ago, ladyD said:

That's exactly my point...if Wex was actually there he would have heard all 7 of them speaking. He wasn't there he found 6 pairs of tracks leaving WF and Luwins dead body :-). 

This may turn into an interesting thread for me. Can I get back to you tomorrow? I would need to look up the chapter when Ban & companions found Luwin.

:idea:   AND you have yet to supply a textual quote.   Peace out.

 

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This may turn into an interesting thread for me. Can I get back to you tomorrow? I would need to look up the chapter when Ban & companions found Luwin.

:idea:   AND you have yet to supply a textual quote.   Peace out.

 

Yea no prob, and what quote do you want the entire exchange between Luwin, Bran, and the rest? Or Manderly and Co.'s story to Davos? I have searchoficeandfire up let me know I can copy it in here. Thanks for commenting! 

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6 minutes ago, ladyD said:

How would he know if he was there? How could he have known that the ship or boat or whatever he saw Osha and Rickon and a huge direwolf get on was going to Skagos? Osha wouldn't have told him...he's the enemy. And how do you smuggle a direwolf onto a ship? I think Manderly found out because of all the ships and talk coming into and out of WH. I don't have an answer for how they know where they ended up but if Wex was there he would have heard all 7 voices, would have seen Luwin get stabbed and not assumed he was killed in a sweep, and if Ramsey's crew did sweep the godswood they would not have left someone alive who could tell what really happened. They've got to be lying. I just don't know why - that's what I was hoping you guys could fill in as experts who have been analyzing this for years. But they are lying. Wex wasn't there. 

I'm too lazy to read through right now. But your first line was enough to make me realise I was wrong! 

:cheers:

 

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