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Lyanna's condition.

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On 23/04/2018 at 1:05 PM, Widow's Watch said:

When Ned arrived at the tower, the three men were already well aware of everything that had happened. They knew Rhaegar had died, they knew King's Landing had been sacked, they knew Aerys and the babies had been killed, they knew Rhaella was on Dragonstone with Viserys. These guys were not cut off from the world or what was happening in it. I personally don't think they remained at the tower while the war was going on. 

Is that right? I don't have GOT to hand, but I thought that they simply responded to Ned, as he described what had been happening.

That being said, I would expect they at least knew the broad strokes - Trident lost, Rhaegar dead, Aerys dead. You would expect someone knew where they were (else Ned would not have found them), and Rhaegar would arrange to have some word sent to them if the worst happened. You'd think Rhaegar would have set it up so that they could get Lyanna and Jon out of dodge if things went south, and the only reason they didn't was because it was too risky to move Lyanna.

As to the question of Stockholm Syndrome - as others have said, it's possible. However, it's no more possible than three or four other theories floating around there, the front runner being that she went willingly and stayed willingly. I struggle to see how we would find out exactly what was going through her head throughout the months she was away. Unlike Dany we aren't going to get a POV. All we're likely to get is observers' accounts - Howland Reed, Wylla - or Bran's supernatural insights. From these we're most likely to get a basic outline of events - whether she was taken by force in the Riverlands, what they were up to for the months they were absent, who else was involved, and what they both said to explain their actions. 

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19 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Is that right? I don't have GOT to hand, but I thought that they simply responded to Ned, as he described what had been happening.

That being said, I would expect they at least knew the broad strokes - Trident lost, Rhaegar dead, Aerys dead. You would expect someone knew where they were (else Ned would not have found them), and Rhaegar would arrange to have some word sent to them if the worst happened. You'd think Rhaegar would have set it up so that they could get Lyanna and Jon out of dodge if things went south, and the only reason they didn't was because it was too risky to move Lyanna.

This is the dialogue. 

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.
"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.
"Woe the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."
"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."
"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."
"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."
"Ser Willem Darry is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.
"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard to not flee."
"Then or now," Said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold. 
(Eddard X, AGOT 39)

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18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

This is the dialogue. 

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.
"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.
"Woe the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."
"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."
"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."
"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."
"Ser Willem Darry is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.
"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard to not flee."
"Then or now," Said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold. 
(Eddard X, AGOT 39)

Thanks. So yeah, there's no real indication that they knew all the details, but they don't act like everything Ned is saying is breaking news to them. 

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A couple of things:

1) Barristan and Jorah also speak favorably of Rhaegar.

2) In my book group, while reading an unrelated book, one of our readers made the succinct point: Even if the character is an ass, it doesn't mean they're guilty of a crime. I think we need to apply this same principle to Rhaegar.  GRRM has frequently stated that his characters are not purely black or white; he prefers to work in the areas of gray.  Based on the available knowledge that we have from the texts in ASOIAF, it is most likely that Rhaegar was a thoughtful, nice guy, albeit a bit obsessed with prophecy (but as a commenter above mentioned, given that the Others are back, it may have been warranted!), who was fond of his wife (I believe that was Barristan's choice of words) but met someone that he fell madly in love with. Sure, it alienated his wife's family, the Martell's.  It doesn't mean that he was "mad", that Lyanna had "Stockholm syndrome", or that he was an evil rapist and murderer.   I think it was more than likely that he just fell in love with someone outside of his arranged marriage.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Barristan and Jorah also speak favorably of Rhaegar.

Very good point. In fact, the only person who seemed to genuinely dislike Rhaegar was Robert.

5 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

In my book group, while reading an unrelated book, one of our readers made the succinct point: Even if the character is an ass, it doesn't mean they're guilty of a crime. I think we need to apply this same principle to Rhaegar.  GRRM has frequently stated that his characters are not purely black or white; he prefers to work in the areas of gray.  Based on the available knowledge that we have from the texts in ASOIAF, it is most likely that Rhaegar was a thoughtful, nice guy, albeit a bit obsessed with prophecy (but as a commenter above mentioned, given that the Others are back, it may have been warranted!), who was fond of his wife (I believe that was Barristan's choice of words) but met someone that he fell madly in love with. Sure, it alienated his wife's family, the Martell's.  It doesn't mean that he was "mad", that Lyanna had "Stockholm syndrome", or that he was an evil rapist and murderer.   I think it was more than likely that he just fell in love with someone outside of his arranged marriage.

These are all excellent points. 

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34 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Thanks. So yeah, there's no real indication that they knew all the details, but they don't act like everything Ned is saying is breaking news to them. 

No, it's not. They seemed up to date with the information as well.

21 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

A couple of things:

1) Barristan and Jorah also speak favorably of Rhaegar.

Barristan, Jorah who fought on opposite side at the Trident, Wyman Manderly who doesn't seem to take too kindly that a Frey is named Rhaegar, and a bunch of other characters. 

Quote

2) In my book group, while reading an unrelated book, one of our readers made the succinct point: Even if the character is an ass, it doesn't mean they're guilty of a crime. I think we need to apply this same principle to Rhaegar.  GRRM has frequently stated that his characters are not purely black or white; he prefers to work in the areas of gray.  Based on the available knowledge that we have from the texts in ASOIAF, it is most likely that Rhaegar was a thoughtful, nice guy, albeit a bit obsessed with prophecy (but as a commenter above mentioned, given that the Others are back, it may have been warranted!), who was fond of his wife (I believe that was Barristan's choice of words) but met someone that he fell madly in love with. Sure, it alienated his wife's family, the Martell's.  It doesn't mean that he was "mad", that Lyanna had "Stockholm syndrome", or that he was an evil rapist and murderer.   I think it was more than likely that he just fell in love with someone outside of his arranged marriage.

I believe that Barristan's below passage is the broad strokes of what happened with Rhaegar. 

Quote

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. (The Kingbreaker, ADWD)

As far as passages that can hold a double meaning, I think this one is it.

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42 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Very good point. In fact, the only person who seemed to genuinely dislike Rhaegar was Robert.

These are all excellent points. 

Thank you!

17 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, it's not. They seemed up to date with the information as well.

Barristan, Jorah who fought on opposite side at the Trident, Wyman Manderly who doesn't seem to take too kindly that a Frey is named Rhaegar, and a bunch of other characters. 

I believe that Barristan's below passage is the broad strokes of what happened with Rhaegar. 

As far as passages that can hold a double meaning, I think this one is it.

This is an excellent passage to accompany Barristan's thoughts on Rhaegar's relationship with Elia.  Marrying for love has been associated with atrocities across the seven kingdoms. But, we cannot have a conversation about this without discussing Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling.  He married for the honor of his bride, and the North paid dearly for this. In truth, I think GRRM may have used Robb Stark situation as a juxtaposition for Rhaegar that we will discover later on. While we may think Robb stupid and an idiot for his actions, I feel most readers understand why he did it - for honor and a higher purpose that simply a strategic political alliance. It becomes a lot harder for us to criticize or demonize Rhaegar for something when Robb did basically the same thing.

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