Tagganaro Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 39 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said: Did Jon betray his vows to the Watch to save his sister? Hadn't fArya already escaped when he decided to march against Ramsay? Yes now this is a really interesting question. The way GRRM wrote Jon's final chapter, it's not entirely clear why he decides to march on Winterfell. Like, he immediately thinks of his family upon reading the PL, but like you said, the PL is saying Arya's gone, so it's tough to conceive of Jon marching just to rescue Arya...I guess maybe Jon could be thinking that since Arya didn't show up at the Wall like Ramsay thinks she did, maybe he recaptured her and Jon is going to save her? But this is not explicitly said or thought of by Jon. The other avenue to explore is that not only is Ramsay pushing Jon's buttons by calling him bastard, etc. (in a very Mance-ian way I might add), but he's just threatened him and the NW to return hostages Jon does not have or is unwilling to give up. Jon does sort of sell the march on Winterfell as a response to Ramsay's threat, saying that "this creature has sworn to cut out my heart, I mean to hold him to it" or something to that effect. Quote I was thinking about the Marsh and co. conspiracy. Wasn't there a theory with possible letters going back and forth with KL? And maybe they didn't want Jon to help Stannis or to hurt the Boltons? Essentially taking the side of the crown. This is a thing people tend to forget about Marsh- he conspired to make Janos Slynt the LC just to appease Tywin Lannister. He is a very politically-motivated person and he sees Tywin and the Crown as the NW's major faction that they have to keep happy. Which I find really interesting in certain respects since Marsh is a Northman who follows the Old Gods..You'd think maybe he'd have more respect for the Starks as it seems like most of the North does with respect to the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 57 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said: That's great! Ah, I see, I can fence sit on both! I admit I do have more sympathy for Jon than Marsh. Did Jon betray his vows to the Watch to save his sister? Hadn't fArya already escaped when he decided to march against Ramsay? Yes, yes, but as an organization they have more options available to them than a traditional liege relationship. Certainly something more elegant than assassination. Some avenues may be more difficult with divided loyalties but they are seriously risking external imposition with two killings of a LC in so short a span, a time of war. It's not hard to talk to people, they like to have a say. Oh, that's right I forgot about that. Thanks Shouldve Taken The Black! I was thinking about the Marsh and co. conspiracy. Wasn't there a theory with possible letters going back and forth with KL? And maybe they didn't want Jon to help Stannis or to hurt the Boltons? Essentially taking the side of the crown. One side question, how much is the crown allowed to interfere with the NW? Like they kill deserters in the king's name but did they have the right to kill Yoren? If my reading of the law is correct (I've not yet passed the bar in the North, but I have a license to practice in the iron islands), Jon crossed the line as soon as he decided to put himself at the head of an army marching south. What do you think the other options are other than assassination? The LC is like a pope rather than a prime minister. He's elected but then that's the end of it. As to Marsh, he saw a letter from Tywin favouring Slynt, and reacted to it, but I don't think he's in cahoots with anyone. Cersei never gave any indication of any cahooting. I think the iron throne and lords generally are expected to enforce the customs of the NW, ie, kill deserters, etc. But they are expected not to drag brothers into civil conflict like Porch did with Yoren. Still, the NW vows are their vows. Noone else is bound by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said: Oh, that's right I forgot about that. Thanks Shouldve Taken The Black! I'm here to serve :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said: One side question, how much is the crown allowed to interfere with the NW? Like they kill deserters in the king's name but did they have the right to kill Yoren? No, the Lannister regime didn't have the right to kill a NW's recruiter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said: Yes, and even in this scene the author shows again the Frey as the worst of the two. Hosteen could have slap Manderly for the insult, instead he slashes a disarmed and disabled man… If a man had made fun of Bran's nde in earshot of Ned would you chastise Ned for reacting violently? Do you think Allister's taunting of Jon violent about Ned's death showed him to be the worse man? What do you suppose most noblemen would react to someone saying an 8 year old boy who was of kin of them would have done to a man who said it was a good thing the boy was murdered because the blood in his veins would have turned him into scum anyway? Hosteen by no means is a saint but neither is the man who feeds people their kin(even a pregnant women) and gets his chuckles off the murder of a 8 year old boy because them being from a family whose wronged him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowy Tends Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: If a man had made fun of Bran's nde in earshot of Ned would you chastise Ned for reacting violently? Do you think Allister's taunting of Jon violent about Ned's death showed him to be the worse man? What do you suppose most noblemen would react to someone saying an 8 year old boy who was of kin of them would have done to a man who said it was a good thing the boy was murdered because the blood in his veins would have turned him into scum anyway? Hosteen by no means is a saint but neither is the man who feeds people their kin(even a pregnant women) and gets his chuckles off the murder of a 8 year old boy because them being from a family whose wronged him. I'm not saying Manderly didn't deserve a retribution, but the scene doesn't take place at the Twins or some Frey vassal's holdfast. Hosteen unsheathe his sword in a place where he is a "guest", this is an insult to the host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 4 hours ago, Tagganaro said: Again, I'll say that I'm not sure Tyrion broke "guest right" in the Westerosi conception. From what we know of it it only runs from host to the guest and not vice versa...I'll dare say that we have not seen a single instance of a guest being able to violate guest right...indeed you could argue it should be called "host right" if it actually exists. There may be something in the books that describes or hints at reciprocal obligations of both host and guest, but on simple common sense grounds I don't see how guest right can only go in one direction and still be something that is taken so seriously by the citizens (even if it is more honored in the breach lately). What would possibly induce any host to offer guest right to anybody unless he was pretty certain that he also was protected by it? Also, correlation is not causation. Simply because we haven't seen guests attack their hosts doesn't mean that it's an acceptable thing for them to do. Unless guest right imposes obligations upon guests as well as hosts, such a norm could never have been successfully perpetuated in the society the way it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said: Yes, and even in this scene the author shows again the Frey as the worst of the two. Hosteen could have slap Manderly for the insult, instead he slashes a disarmed and disabled man… In another circumstances, people wouldn't feel symphaty for someone who mock death of child. 2 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said: but did they have the right to kill Yoren? They didn't. Lorch commited crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said: I'm not saying Manderly didn't deserve a retribution, but the scene doesn't take place at the Twins or some Frey vassal's holdfast. Hosteen unsheathe his sword in a place where he is a "guest", this is an insult to the host. You're saying it showed Holdenfast being the worse man-it didn't. The worse man is still the man whose so poisoned with desires of revenge he would get off on any sort of suffering(no matter how grotesque) being enacted on people who've the fate to be related to a family whose Lord had wronged him no matter their innocence. The man came off looking like a pure monster obsessed with his own want for vengeance it is literally making him toxic.I dont see that many noblemen acting that differently in Holdfest's shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowy Tends Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: You're saying it showed Holdenfast being the worse man-it didn't. The worse man is still the man whose so poisoned with desires of revenge he would get off on any sort of suffering(no matter how grotesque) being enacted on people who've the fate to be related to a family whose Lord had wronged him no matter their innocence. The man came off looking like a pure monster obsessed with his own want for vengeance it is literally making him toxic.I dont see that many noblemen acting that differently in Holdfest's shoes. You just forget that the "Frey pies" is not an established fact; so far it's only an extremely plausible theory, and even if it's proved true we have two Freys killed – two morons who had the guts to say that Robb Stark was a werewolf , when the Frey killed several thousands "guests". Don't try to sell me Manderly as the bad guy in this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 22 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said: Don't try to sell me Manderly as the bad guy in this story. Damn fucking straight, don't try cos it ain't gonna fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 30 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said: Don't try to sell me Manderly as the bad guy in this story. Of course he is, he murdered his guests and cannibalized them, these are not the actions of the good or even the grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said: You just forget that the "Frey pies" is not an established fact; so far it's only an extremely plausible theory, and even if it's proved true we have two Freys killed – two morons who had the guts to say that Robb Stark was a werewolf , when the Frey killed several thousands "guests". Don't try to sell me Manderly as the bad guy in this story. Let's say it is-which we can say it's 99.9% certain of already-so as certian as Robert strong being Gregore cleagane. some how an innocent like Fat Walda is open season for the crimes of her kin lol? It's not revolting to make her eat her kin when she has never done anything against against Manderly and pregnant? Being of the Frey blood warrants death in manderly's book,he clearly has no ability to differentiate them. I would say he is a bad guy and it is ridiculous to try to sanitize him. Honestly I would find it disgusting if someone after hearing someone murdered Tommen or any of the kids at Casterly Rock someone having thought "good, better they die before they grow up to become Lanisters". I don't care what sins their forefathers and committed even against your family-they're children. The man did not come out mocking the murder of a child looking as anything but a disgusting revenge posoined monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Of course he is, he murdered his guests and cannibalized them, these are not the actions of the good or even the grey. Correction: the Freys in his custody stopped being his guest on his departure to Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Damn fucking straight, don't try cos it ain't gonna fly. You're a scumbag if you think children deserve a death sentence for the crimes of their family by virtue of having been related to them-you're a scum bag for tricking a pregnant woman whose never done anything to you into eating her kin to get some chuckles. If you disagree(I'm sure you don't of course), explain why saying Manderrly is bad or immoral or a monster is so woefully unfair, if not I don't see any real reason to see Manderly as something else than foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: You're a scumbag if you think children deserve a death sentence for the crimes of their family by virtue of having been related to them-you're a scum bag for tricking a pregnant woman whose never done anything to you into eating her kin to get some chuckles. If you disagree(I'm sure you don't of course), explain why saying Manderrly is bad or immoral or a monster is so woefully unfair, if not I don't see any real reason to see Manderly as something else than foul. You're gonna have to rephrase your whole post if you want a reply. I can tell you I'm not fussed either way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I totally get a kick out of lurking/browsing a thread, hit upon a thread that I want to add my penny worth to, sign in and end up at a thread I did not intend to go to. Does that happen to anyone else? 23 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: You're a scumbag if you think children deserve a death sentence for the crimes of their family by virtue of having been related to them-you're a scum bag for tricking a pregnant woman whose never done anything to you into eating her kin to get some chuckles. Slow your roll, please. ^ Can you give a bit of context? 1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said: Don't try to sell me Manderly as the bad guy in this story. 59 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Damn fucking straight, don't try cos it ain't gonna fly. 50 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Of course he is, he murdered his guests and cannibalized them, these are not the actions of the good or even the grey. Did he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: You're gonna have to rephrase your whole post if you want a reply. I can tell you I'm not fussed either way Do you think it's morally repugnant for a man to rejoice at the murder of a child because the child is related to people who've done him harm? I'm sure you do. Do you think a man feeding a pregnant woman whose never done anything him her murdered kin just for a chuckle horrific? I'm sure you do. Why then do you find it so outrageous to call such a man who'd do both these things a monster or a bad guy? I cannot find justification for Manderly committing such acts so I call him a monster, a bad guy, gross. Why am I wrong to call him such things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: Did he? did he what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: did he what? Did Manderly actually kill and cook Frey pies? 1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said: Of course he is, he murdered his guests and cannibalized them, these are not the actions of the good or even the grey. I assume the above is in reference to to below. 1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said: Don't try to sell me Manderly as the bad guy in this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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