Mance Rayder violated guest rights!

[Clegane'sPup]

6 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Farlen also eat Theon's bread. Did Theon break GR by killing him?

 

 

12 hours ago, Kandrax said:

we don't know if a guest killing guest is against guest right. Ramsay was never Theon's guest.

 

7 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

I don't know. Does Gr affect a whole host's household or just members of his family?

 

12 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Neither of them did it. Roose was also guest, we don't know if a guest killing guest is against guest right. Ramsay was never Theon's guest.

Those are actually good one liners.

[Son of Man]

On 4/25/2018 at 1:15 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I can't understand how people can't comprehend this and even go as far as blaming Jon'so Let's take baby steps into the guess rights. Today's lesson, required parties for a guest right. "You obviously need guests but what else?" I hear you ask. Well my sweet summer child, you need a host too.

Roose is the host, right?

No.

Ramsay then?

NO!

Well now, who the fleck is the host?

No one. Arya is the host but she is not Arya so...

Still stubborn enough to blind yourself to reason? Well then, bitter summer child;

Winterfell is Arya's home so she is the host. Ramsay's claim comes through her, so even if he is a host, it is only through her. Arya is a fake so no host, no host means no guest, which means no guest right.

Simple as that.

" Weevil John stole Pewr wemsay's fakee bride, he broke gest rides!" 

Yeah fer sure!

The Starks are homeless vagabonds.  Roose was the host at Winterfell.  He was given the North by the king on the iron throne.  Roose defeated the previous governors of the North, the Starks.  Roose rebuilt Winterfell.  He is not only occupying Winterfell but he is the Warden of the North.  Mance violated the laws of guest rights when he murdered the Bolton soldiers and servants. 

[Nowy Tends]

17 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

The Starks are homeless vagabonds.  Roose was the host at Winterfell.  He was given the North by the king on the iron throne.  Roose defeated the previous governors of the North, the Starks.  Roose rebuilt Winterfell.  He is not only occupying Winterfell but he is the Warden of the North.  Mance violated the laws of guest rights when he murdered the Bolton soldiers and servants. 

Saturday night trolling. Pathetic and painful.

[The Sunland Lord]

Guest right? I wonder why those who lost someone at the RW by the bolton and frey men, didn't pay the "hosts" a visit in the night. 

Maybe they are not that hot headed and have some better plan. We should see. After all they are outnumbered so far.

[Bowen 747]

Jon swore an oath to stay at the wall and stay out of politics.  He had no right to interfere with whatever the Boltons want to do to Arya.

The current rulers of Westeros gave the Boltons the right to the North, including Winterfell.  Winterfell is the seat of the Warden of the North and Roose Bolton is every bit the legal warden.  Even if you question this, you still cannot deny that the Boltons defeated the Starks.  They have control of Winterfell by the right of conquest.  The Starks chose to rebel and they got their asses handed to them.  End of story.  Roose is in command at Winterfell.  He had the authority to send the Manderlys and the Freys out of the gate.  His son, Ramsay had his wedding in Winterfell and therefore they are the hosts.  Mance Rayder came in and took shelter, ate their food.  The wildlings killed Bolton men and so they broke guest rights.  Mance and the wildlings are at Winterfell to rescue Arya because that is what Jon Snow commanded them to do.  That makes Jon  guilty of breaking guest rights.  Indirectly guilty but guilty all the same.

[Bowen 747]

On 4/28/2018 at 7:26 PM, Son of Man said:

The Starks are homeless vagabonds.  Roose was the host at Winterfell.  He was given the North by the king on the iron throne.  Roose defeated the previous governors of the North, the Starks.  Roose rebuilt Winterfell.  He is not only occupying Winterfell but he is the Warden of the North.  Mance violated the laws of guest rights when he murdered the Bolton soldiers and servants. 

[Bowen 747]

On 4/22/2018 at 10:30 PM, Nowy Tends said:

Mance is Stannis's prisoner, not Jon's. Read harder.

Think harder.  Use your common sense.  Mance Rayder did not rescue fake Arya for the hell of it.  HE DID IT BECAUSE JON TOLD HIM TO.  That violates the neutrality that the watch is required to practice.  The watch takes no part.  Jon violated that because he wants to take his sister away from her husband and sent Mance Rayder to do just that.  Mance entered the castle, ate food, and took shelter with the Boltons while performing the job that Jon sent him to do.  Mance killed Bolton's men while in the castle.  That is a direct violation of guest rights.  

Jon spared Mance because he had use for him.  Mance deserved death for his crimes against the watch and against Westeros.  It was a violation of his duties for Jon to let Mance off the hook for his crimes.  Mance was not only allowed to leave Castle Black to do what Jon told him to do, Jon provided the women to help him on his mission.  Mance was under Jon's control.  Jon sent him to get Arya, Jon is responsible for this mission that led to the violation of guest rights.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Please discuss the topic of the thread, not each other. And do not taunt each other. Next time it happens the thread will be closed and posting privileges may be revoked. Thank you. [/mod]

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 4/17/2018 at 0:14 PM, zandru said:

Jeyne ("Arya") is not a "guest." She's Ramsey's lawfully married wife - that is to say, his property. He has wide latitude in how he treats her, and let's just note also that "intramarital rape" is not a thing in Westeros. (Sadly.)

As I noted, it doesn't matter who "owns" Winterfell. It doesn't matter who brought the food. It doesn't matter what names people call themselves by, nor who ate what, nor who sent whom, nor how mean they were. "Guest right" isn't something that is meant to be lawyered to death. But the only important factor is this: Bolton (and Frey), by their treacheries, are not entitled to it.

Robb was a rebel and oathbreaker,  he was still entitled to guest rights.  The Boltons are entitled to the protection of guest rights.

[Bowen 747]

Mance Rayder is still a member of the Night's Watch.  Desertion did not release him from his vows.  Nothing can.  Jon is technically and practically his commanding officer.  He had no choice except to follow Jon's orders to get Arya.  That is what he did.  Unfortunately, they killed Roose Bolton's people while doing it and that is  one of the violations of guest rights.  Taking away someone's bride is an attack on that person and his house.  

10 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Robb was a rebel and oathbreaker,  he was still entitled to guest rights.  The Boltons are entitled to the protection of guest rights.

Agree

[Nowy Tends]

13 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

Mance Rayder is still a member of the Night's Watch.  Desertion did not release him from his vows.  Nothing can.  Jon is technically and practically his commanding officer.  He had no choice except to follow Jon's orders to get Arya.  That is what he did. 

1/ You got the impression that Jon/Mance relationship is that of commander to subordinate?

2/ There's no real evidence that Bolton's people were killed by the spearwifes. The way they tell Theon they did is not exactly convincing, specially when Ramsay the mad killer is nearby…

And again: SO WHAT? Who cares about GR in that chaos, when the master of the house and his son are sadistic war criminals, when everybody can hear the roarings of pain of a sex slave deceitfully presented as a Stark?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 4/29/2018 at 1:26 AM, Son of Man said:

Roose was the host at Winterfell.  He was given the North by the king on the iron throne.  Roose defeated the previous governors of the North, the Starks.  Roose rebuilt Winterfell.  He is not only occupying Winterfell but he is the Warden of the North.  Mance violated the laws of guest rights when he murdered the Bolton soldiers and servants. 

Um... No, no, no, kinda-but-it-matters-not, and no.

Roose wasn't "given" the North. Roose was, specifically, appointed Warden of the North, not Lord Paramount of the North and not Lord of Winterfell. If you argue that Winterfell is the seat of the Warden of the North - yes, traditionally. The same as, by tradition, Eyrie was the seat of the Warden of the East, and Casterly Rock - Warden of the West. However, when Jaime was given wardenship of the East (by Bob), and Daven - of the West (by Cersei), the Eyrie and the Rock respectively weren't part of the package.

Roose didn't "defeat" the Starks. Not according to Roose himself. Not at the Red Wedding ("no comment"), not at Winterfell ("the ironborn did it").

Roose didn't "rebuild" Winterfell, and anyway, that's hardly a claim to ownership. If I scratch your car, and fix the scratch - is it now my car? And if your answer is "yes", I'd like to know where do you park.

The Bolton claim to Winterfell stem solely from the marriage of Ramsay Bolton né Snow to one Arya Stark. Who, however, isn't Arya Stark, but Jeyne Poole, hence the claim is a sham. And, considering the nature of the marriage (gods!), arguing loudly for Ramsay's alleged rights there is a little unbecoming.

So, all in all, the Boltons weren't hosts, but squatters, and the guest right says nothing about squatters' rights.

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Mance Rayder is still a member of the Night's Watch.  Desertion did not release him from his vows.  Nothing can.  Jon is technically and practically his commanding officer.

If in a war between two countries one soldier desert to enemy side, would his former commandeer be hold accountable for his war crimes after desertion?

 

3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Who cares about GR in that chaos, when the master of the house and his son are sadistic war criminals, when everybody can hear the roarings of pain of a sex slave deceitfully presented as a Stark?

Gods.

[Tagganaro]

16 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Think harder.  Use your common sense.  Mance Rayder did not rescue fake Arya for the hell of it.  HE DID IT BECAUSE JON TOLD HIM TO. 

Well technically he did it because Melisandre told him to.  It was Mel and Mance who hatched this plan, not Jon.  I will elaborate more below, but it is really unclear whether Mance showing up at Winterfell has anything to do with rescuing Arya.

Quote

 

That violates the neutrality that the watch is required to practice.  The watch takes no part. 

 

Where is this requirement in the NW's vows?  It's a practice to be neutral, not a requirement.  

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Jon violated that because he wants to take his sister away from her husband and sent Mance Rayder to do just that.  Mance entered the castle, ate food, and took shelter with the Boltons while performing the job that Jon sent him to do.  Mance killed Bolton's men while in the castle.  That is a direct violation of guest rights.  

This is all...really unclear.  Jon sent Mance to retrieve a grey girl on a dying horse at Longlake- that is the extent of Jon's knowledge and mission parameters.  Now, Mance does openly talk of having a "certain ploy" he means to carry out, which seems to be very separate from the rescue mission.  There is unfortunately no follow-up from Jon on this, but we know from Jon's own POV that he is shocked and confused by Mance's where-abouts, so it's clear Jon never contemplated this "certain ploy" and it's doubly clear that Jon never contemplated Mance showing up at Winterfell.

Secondly, again, it's very unclear what Mance is doing at Winterfell.  The grey girl on a dying horse turned out to be Alys Karstark, who makes no mention of Mance.  Did Mance ever even show up at Longlake?  We really don't know.  Did he show up at Longlake and get impatient and then head to Winterfell?  Or did he just never show up there?  All we know is that he mentioned a "certain ploy" he wanted the Spearwives help with, and then he ends up showing up at Winterfell using those spearwives as washerwoman so he can be "Abel."  It is again, entirely unclear what Mance is doing in Winterfell and what he wants to accomplish.

Quote

Jon spared Mance because he had use for him.  Mance deserved death for his crimes against the watch and against Westeros. 

Jon didn't spare Mance, Stannis/Melisandre did.  Jon had no idea Mance was alive and assumed him dead after Melisandre burned "Mance."

Quote

 

It was a violation of his duties for Jon to let Mance off the hook for his crimes. 

 

What duties did Jon violate by not killing Mance?  Jon argues to Stannis that Mance is valuable both as a tool to bind the wildlings to Stannis's cause but more importantly due to his knowledge of the Others, something Stannis does not argue against (in fact he seems to agree with Jon that Mance's knowledge is useful.)  And again, Mance was Stannis's prisoner, not Jon's.

Quote

Mance was not only allowed to leave Castle Black to do what Jon told him to do, Jon provided the women to help him on his mission.  Mance was under Jon's control.  Jon sent him to get Arya, Jon is responsible for this mission that led to the violation of guest rights.

This makes no sense.  Jon sent Mance to rescue a grey girl on a dying horse from Longlake, something that is most certainly not a violation of guest rights.  Jon makes it clear again and again that he has no idea where Mance is and what he is doing.  How the heck can you hold him responsible for Mance taking a detour that Jon has no knowledge of?

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Um... No, no, no, kinda-but-it-matters-not, and no.

Roose wasn't "given" the North. Roose was, specifically, appointed Warden of the North, not Lord Paramount of the North and not Lord of Winterfell. If you argue that Winterfell is the seat of the Warden of the North - yes, traditionally. The same as, by tradition, Eyrie was the seat of the Warden of the East, and Casterly Rock - Warden of the West. However, when Jaime was given wardenship of the East (by Bob), and Daven - of the West (by Cersei), the Eyrie and the Rock respectively weren't part of the package.

Roose didn't "defeat" the Starks. Not according to Roose himself. Not at the Red Wedding ("no comment"), not at Winterfell ("the ironborn did it").

Roose didn't "rebuild" Winterfell, and anyway, that's hardly a claim to ownership. If I scratch your car, and fix the scratch - is it now my car? And if your answer is "yes", I'd like to know where do you park.

The Bolton claim to Winterfell stem solely from the marriage of Ramsay Bolton né Snow to one Arya Stark. Who, however, isn't Arya Stark, but Jeyne Poole, hence the claim is a sham. And, considering the nature of the marriage (gods!), arguing loudly for Ramsay's alleged rights there is a little unbecoming.

So, all in all, the Boltons weren't hosts, but squatters, and the guest right says nothing about squatters' rights.

Very well said, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Nowy Tends]

22 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

 How the heck can you hold him responsible for Mance taking a detour that Jon has no knowledge of?

Don't bother. Most of your points, and @Ferocious Veldt Roarer's have already been submitted several times in this thread, and it doesn't prevent some people who see the Boltons as the victims from returning to deliver the same assertions, inconsistent with regard to the text,  again and again…

[Aline de Gavrillac]

8 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Mance Rayder is still a member of the Night's Watch.  Desertion did not release him from his vows.  Nothing can.  Jon is technically and practically his commanding officer.  He had no choice except to follow Jon's orders to get Arya.  That is what he did.  Unfortunately, they killed Roose Bolton's people while doing it and that is  one of the violations of guest rights.  Taking away someone's bride is an attack on that person and his house.  

Agree

Agree with the underlined.  Mellisandre had this idea to use the wildling boy for their leverage on Mance.  Jon chose to go along with it because telling them they have Craster's son would defeat the purpose of the baby switch.  The whole mission to rescue Arya was a mess from the beginning.  It should not have happened.  

Mance Rayder risked his life and those of the spearwives on a lie.  Squirrel the wildling is the one most likely to have gotten herself caught and tortured for information.  It was disaster from the beginning.  Mel's vision bit Jon's cock off.  Jon betrayed the watch and started a fight with the Boltons and it wasn't even Arya.  Mance got himself captured and his women tortured to help Arya, and it wasn't even the real Arya.  The author set up Jon for failure.  I was not surprised after Jon's desertion early on in the story.  

5 hours ago, Kandrax said:

If in a war between two countries one soldier desert to enemy side, would his former commandeer be hold accountable for his war crimes after desertion?

 

Gods.

Jon is not responsible for Mance deserting the Night's Watch over a piece of cloth.  Mance Rayder is the only one responsible for that crime because he was insubordinate to his commander and chose to break his vows rather than wear his uniform properly.  Jon is partially responsible for Mance Rayder's breaking of guest rights because he sent the man on that mission.  You can't argue that Mance Rayder chose to go through the danger of rescuing Arya out of the goodness of his heart.   He did it because Jon told him to.  Is it fair to Jon to hold him accountable?  Yes.  You can't deny that he sent Mance Rayder out on that mission.  

[The Mother of The Others]

Is this news?   The entire tradition of wildlings is raiding for people's daughters and stuff.  That's never been neighborly, and it isn't now.   So I'd rule that if the gods saw only a polaroid snapshot of Mance invading Winterfell, then they'd be angered over his abuse of guest rights.   If the gods cared to look further into the context of the situation , though, they'd see the Boltons are also guests who have horribly abused the host castle.

[Rondo]

7 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Is this news?   The entire tradition of wildlings is raiding for people's daughters and stuff.  That's never been neighborly, and it isn't now.   So I'd rule that if the gods saw only a polaroid snapshot of Mance invading Winterfell, then they'd be angered over his abuse of guest rights.   If the gods cared to look further into the context of the situation , though, they'd see the Boltons are also guests who have horribly abused the host castle.

The Boltons didn't break guest rights.  That was the Freys.  Mance Rayder is a man of the Night's Watch.  He is expected to honor guest rights.  The free folk are now on the Westerosi side of the wall.  They are expected to abide by guest rights.  

[The Mother of The Others]

I always expected them to, even during the otts (2001-2009) when raiding was trending.    I was saying the boltons might not qualify as hosts.   They didn't break guest rights, they broke the universe of trust.