Mance Rayder violated guest rights!

[Megorova]

43 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But why was Mance so eager, desperate even, to help the presumed Arya to escape?

Probably because he was under Melisandre's control, thru that ruby bracelet. He wanted to get rid of it, but it could be safely taken off only by Melisandre herself. And she can even kill Mance, by burning him alive thru that bracelet. So he's obsessed with an idea to fulfill Melisandre's will, but that's what the shadow, stored in the bracelet, makes him think. And aside from that thought, he has his own different agenda. There's a reason why he came to Winterfell. Seems to me, that he was looking for something, that is supposed to be hidden in Winterfell.

50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Disguised as Abel, an echo of Mance’s hero, Bael the Bard, the Mance wanted to know how Theon captured Winterfell. Clearly, Mance was attempting to find some way for Stannis to capture Winterfell. He also wanted Theon to show him the crypts.

I'm sure that Dawn sword of Daynes, the Lightbringer of Azor Ahai is hidden in those crypts. Though how can Mance know about it? That information is only 15 years old. Maybe he heard something, some conversation between Ned and Benjen about Lyanna, or maybe he even heard Ned talking to Lyanna (or rather with Lyanna's statue in the crypt), and he said something about Lightbringer. Maybe those several swords were missing from the crypts, because Mance thought, that one of them is Dawn.

Though probably he was looking there for something else. And that something else is somehow connected to the Others. It's the reason why there always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell. Because there's something there. And Mance thinks that he knows what it is.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Considering how Ramsay treated his wife (wives, actually), I really couldn't care less about his rights being violated. No, really, couldn't. That you do care, or claim to care, is repulsive. The kid was being raped by dogs, FFS. 

(And that's before digging into the, admittedly a little lawyery, issue whether Ramsay did have any rights in the first place).

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Probably because he was under Melisandre's control, thru that ruby bracelet. He wanted to get rid of it, but it could be safely taken off only by Melisandre herself. And she can even kill Mance, by burning him alive thru that bracelet. So he's obsessed with an idea to fulfill Melisandre's will, but that's what the shadow, stored in the bracelet, makes him think. And aside from that thought, he has his own different agenda. There's a reason why he came to Winterfell. Seems to me, that he was looking for something, that is supposed to be hidden in Winterfell.

I'm sure that Dawn sword of Daynes, the Lightbringer of Azor Ahai is hidden in those crypts. Though how can Mance know about it? That information is only 15 years old. Maybe he heard something, some conversation between Ned and Benjen about Lyanna, or maybe he even heard Ned talking to Lyanna (or rather with Lyanna's statue in the crypt), and he said something about Lightbringer. Maybe those several swords were missing from the crypts, because Mance thought, that one of them is Dawn.

Though probably he was looking there for something else. And that something else is somehow connected to the Others. It's the reason why there always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell. Because there's something there. And Mance thinks that he knows what it is.

Wasn't there an SSM in which The George told us the Dawn was at Starfall? ... Yeap, here it is...

Quote

What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?

Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

Everything, including the kitchen sink, might be in those crypts, but not Dawn. 

[Nowy Tends]

Ned talking with Lyanna's statue about a sword belonging to an other family? That's a bit baroque…

"Hey sis, can you keep that for me? I stole it from the Dayne guy when Holland Reed changed him into a frog, I can't hang it in the lounge, ya know…"

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Wasn't there an SSM in which The George told us the Dawn was at Starfall? ... Yeap, here it is...

Quote

What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?

Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

Everything, including the kitchen sink, might be in those crypts, but not Dawn. 

Seriously, get over that SSM-post, not everything is the way it seems.

What if the question is wrong? What if Ned didn't brought the sword back to Ashara to Starfall, because Ashara was with Arthur and Ned and Lyanna and Howland and Meera (probably still in Ashara's belly) and Wylla and maester Marwyn at the Tower of Joy, so Ned didn't went anywhere, and didn't returned sword to Ashara. And because Ashara, after those events went with Howland to Greywater Watch, where they married and she became Jyana Reed, then the sword is not at Starfall. Though why would GRRM correct whoever asked that question, with major revelations that Ned DIDN'T went to Starfall, and DIDN'T brought the sword there. Thus NOTHING happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara, because none of that ever happened. Also maybe prior his death Arthur requested Ned, that he wants his sword to be given to Rhaegar's son. Thus the sword wasn't even Arthur's anymore. Which makes the question even more wrong.

In here - "What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?" - bolded part is false.

I think that Dawn, the Lightbringer, is Jon's tripple Excalibur - it will be given to him thru Lady of the Lake (Ashara Dayne/Jyana Reed, Lady of Greywater Watch), drawn from stone (from Lyanna's tomb or statue), and drawn from fire (when dead Starks will rise as wights, and Winterfell's crypts will be on fire). I may be wrong with my assumptions, but maybe I'm not.

P.S. "Marwyn" from Welsh translates as "marry". So probably he's the one who married Rhaegar and Lyanna, and was present at the Tower of Joy, when Lyanna was delivering Jon. And he also was in Drogo's tent, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego.

So let's wait for the book, and then we will see that I'm right (I'm kidding of course I'm not a greenseer, and not GRRM's editor, so I don't actually know anything But that post about Dawn may be deliberately incorrect. So to find out the truth, we will have to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait. My hopes are for 2020 as TWOW's publication date, and 2022 for ADOS's release).

[Lost Melnibonean]

54 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Seriously, get over that SSM-post, not everything is the way it seems.

What if the question is wrong? What if Ned didn't brought the sword back to Ashara to Starfall, because Ashara was with Arthur and Ned and Lyanna and Howland and Meera (probably still in Ashara's belly) and Wylla and maester Marwyn at the Tower of Joy, so Ned didn't went anywhere, and didn't returned sword to Ashara. And because Ashara, after those events went with Howland to Greywater Watch, where they married and she became Jyana Reed, then the sword is not at Starfall. Though why would GRRM correct whoever asked that question, with major revelations that Ned DIDN'T went to Starfall, and DIDN'T brought the sword there. Thus NOTHING happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara, because none of that ever happened. Also maybe prior his death Arthur requested Ned, that he wants his sword to be given to Rhaegar's son. Thus the sword wasn't even Arthur's anymore. Which makes the question even more wrong.

In here - "What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?" - bolded part is false.

I think that Dawn, the Lightbringer, is Jon's tripple Excalibur - it will be given to him thru Lady of the Lake (Ashara Dayne/Jyana Reed, Lady of Greywater Watch), drawn from stone (from Lyanna's tomb or statue), and drawn from fire (when dead Starks will rise as wights, and Winterfell's crypts will be on fire). I may be wrong with my assumptions, but maybe I'm not.

P.S. "Marwyn" from Welsh translates as "marry". So probably he's the one who married Rhaegar and Lyanna, and was present at the Tower of Joy, when Lyanna was delivering Jon. And he also was in Drogo's tent, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego.

So let's wait for the book, and then we will see that I'm right (I'm kidding of course I'm not a greenseer, and not GRRM's editor, so I don't actually know anything But that post about Dawn may be deliberately incorrect. So to find out the truth, we will have to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait. My hopes are for 2020 as TWOW's publication date, and 2022 for ADOS's release).

Okie dokie. 

[Megorova]

@Lost Melnibonean Did you noticed in that post, that the question about Dawn, is the only one out of 5 posted there, that is not about Valyria-related subjects?

Quote

Valyria-related Subjects

Did Tohbo Mott ever teach Gendry the secrets of reworking Valyrian steel?

Interesting question.

Who or what were the Stormsingers? What could they do?

Another eastern magical discipline.

What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?

Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

In Valyria did they work Dragonbone into Valyrian steel?

No.

Did Tyrion ever finish reading the book concerning dragons that he borrowed from Winterfell?

Yes.

Submitted by tyrion_targaryen

Daynes are not Valyrians. Dawn is not made of Valyrian steel, it was made from meteorite ore. It was forged 4 or 5 thousands years prior appearance of Valyrians and first dragons. So that question is falling out of the rest. Could be that it's fake, and was added there just for fun, to see whether people will believe it. So is there any other sources, aside from this tyrion_targaryens post, that confirm GRRM's words about Dawn's whereabouts?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

@Lost Melnibonean Did you noticed in that post, that the question about Dawn, is the only one out of 5 posted there, that is not about Valyria-related subjects?

Daynes are not Valyrians. Dawn is not made of Valyrian steel, it was made from meteorite ore. It was forged 4 or 5 thousands years prior appearance of Valyrians and first dragons. So that question is falling out of the rest. Could be that it's fake, and was added there just for fun, to see whether people will believe it. So is there any other sources, aside from this tyrion_targaryens post, that confirm GRRM's words about Dawn's whereabouts?

Nope. And you could even throw in there that the George reserved his right to change anything in an SSM as he continues writing the story. In other words, if he decides to put Dawn in the crypts, he won't be bound by any old SSM. So I say, you shine on!

[UnFit Finlay]

6 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Winterfell was not taken by conquest, but by betrayal. I find hard to believe that you don't see the difference.

Anyway, I guess Jon Snow will soon be blamed for global warming, the disappearance of great whales and the middle-class crisis…

What difference? The Boltons took it from Theon in the exact same way that Tywin took King's Landing from the Targaryens. Both pretended to be there to help and then sacked the place when the gates opened.

Of course I've personally never believed in the whole "The Iron Throne is like the Elder Wand out of Harry Potter so The Targaryens have no claim at all!! Especially DANY!!" stuff that people come out with. I mean, it's a chair. However, if you DO think that Right of Conquest trumps all then you should also support Ramsay Bolton's claim as the rightful Lord of Winterfell.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

Your op sits unstably on an erroneous and all too common mistake - especially among the rabid haters. No one sent Mance to Winterfell to steal anyone from Ramsay.

I know that's not gonna stop anyone from going on and on about it for pages of equally erroneous statements, so carry on and have fun w/ it. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Jeesh. This is another one of those threads where you can post all the actual book quotes, or even SSM’s, that show what a farse this whole Mance-fArya-Winterfell fiasco is and no matter what some people will stick their fingers in their ears and just say, “nuh uh.”

[Bowen 747]

9 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Did Jon really do that? I thought Jon just sent Mance to collect the girl on the dying horse that Mel saw coming North. Jon knew nothing of Mance's plan to infiltrate Winterfell, I thought. 

Also, if you apply these ideas of "indirect guilt" then everyone is probably "guilty" of something horrendous. Arya saved Rorge and Biter (and Jaqen)... is she "guilty" of the destruction of Saltpans? 

Also, there's (probably) not an objective Judging Eye looking down on the world, and ticking boxes in regards to people's conduct. The notion of guilt and crime is subjective, and many in the North would likely argue this was no violation of Guest Right... The Boltons have no right to Winterfell, it's not their Home, therefore they cannot be Hosts at Winterfell, and guests have no obligation to them. The Bolton claim to the North is a lie, because Jeyne Poole is not Arya. Or, perhaps, Ramsey and Roose are criminals and traitors, for what they did in the sack of Winterfell and the Red Wedding, and the laws of hospitality do not apply to them. Or, Ramsey and Roose removed their own protections when they violated Guest Right themselves. 

You know, even that on its own was wrong.  That is interfering with Ramsay Bolton's business.  

The laws of hospitality do not distinguish between good people and bad people.  Nor do they distinguish between who you like and do not like.  The rules applied to Roose Bolton and Mance Rayder.  And to Jon, because it was he who sent Mance to find Arya.  Mance didn't go south to take in the sights and sip margaritas.  He went to get Arya.

[Bowen 747]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Winterfell belong to Starks.

 

I see.  So can we agree that Robert and the Baratheons never really owned the Seven Kingdoms because King Viserys 3 and Princess Daenerys remained its rightful rulers.  Right of Conquest means nothing then.  

[Bowen 747]

7 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

And Jon wasn't, is Bernie Mac's point, I think. Mance may have broken guest right, but Jon hasn't, because he wasn't a guest. Guest Right, and the breaking of it, can only affect the Host (Boltons) and the Guest (Mance). 3rd parties who may have facilitated the guests are not included and no breaking of Guest Right can be attributed to them. 

Jon has to take responsibility because he sent Mance on that mission.  He allowed a criminal to walk so he can send him to take his sister from Ramsay.  Jon is at fault here.

[Bowen 747]

56 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Your op sits unstably on an erroneous and all too common mistake - especially among the rabid haters. No one sent Mance to Winterfell to steal anyone from Ramsay.

I know that's not gonna stop anyone from going on and on about it for pages of equally erroneous statements, so carry on and have fun w/ it. 

Mance didn't escape from the Wall on his own.  Jon let him walk and sent him to get Arya away from Ramsay.  Mance didn't just happen on a group of cooperative wildlng women eager to endanger their lives to go to Winterfell.  Mance didn't risk his life and those of his women to go to Winterfell and rescue the girl that he thought was Arya.  Mance is on that mission because Jon Snow sent him.  You cannot deny that.  There is no way you can defend Jon for this.  

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Your op sits unstably on an erroneous and all too common mistake - especially among the rabid haters. No one sent Mance to Winterfell to steal anyone from Ramsay.

I know that's not gonna stop anyone from going on and on about it for pages of equally erroneous statements, so carry on and have fun w/ it. 

57 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jeesh. This is another one of those threads where you can post all the actual book quotes, or even SSM’s, that show what a farse this whole Mance-fArya-Winterfell fiasco is and no matter what some people will stick their fingers in their ears and just say, “nuh uh.”

You both got proven 100% correct almost immediately after you made these posts.

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

What difference? The Boltons took it from Theon in the exact same way that Tywin took King's Landing from the Targaryens. Both pretended to be there to help and then sacked the place when the gates opened.

What's this gibberish? Tywin sacked KL, he didn't "took" it, he never claimed he was the new legit owner of the place… You got it all mixed up…

The Boltons took WF by betrayal, just like Theon; both betrayed the Stark. Ramsay is a scum, a war criminal, etc. one has to be seriouly disturbed to consider he might have a claim as "the rightful Lord of WF".

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

Mance didn't escape from the Wall on his own.  Jon let him walk and sent him to get Arya away from Ramsay.  Mance didn't just happen on a group of cooperative wildlng women eager to endanger their lives to go to Winterfell.  Mance didn't risk his life and those of his women to go to Winterfell and rescue the girl that he thought was Arya.  Mance is on that mission because Jon Snow sent him.  You cannot deny that.  There is no way you can defend Jon for this.  

I have no idea if you are being disingenious or if you are simply misremembering. But I have had this same conversarion one time too many. Maybe even w/ you. 

Show me  quotes that support your claims. I'll be here, but I won't hold my breath.

15 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

You both got proven 100% correct almost immediately after you made these posts.

Sad, innit?

[Moiraine Sedai]

8 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Winterfell was not taken by conquest, but by betrayal. I find hard to believe that you don't see the difference.

Anyway, I guess Jon Snow will soon be blamed for global warming, the disappearance of great whales and the middle-class crisis…

Jaime stabbed Aerys in the back.  That is an even bigger betrayal.  Robert was still considered king.

Lann swindled the Casterlys and the rock has been theirs since then.  

I won't blame Jon for global warming. 

But, I will blame him for the mess that he made at the wall for the sake of getting his sister out of a bad marriage.  

[Nowy Tends]

26 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

  Mance is on that mission because Jon Snow sent him.  You cannot deny that.  There is no way you can defend Jon for this.  

Jon didn't send Mance to WF, is that SO hard to understand? Jon guilty of guest rights violation is utterly ludicrous and grotesque.