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Wolf's Bane

Mance Rayder violated guest rights!

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It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

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25 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

 

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

No it does not, guest rights is an agreement between host and guest, no one else. 

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32 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

What does all this add up to in your opinion?

One could make the argument that the Boltons and Freys having guest-rights violated was poetic justice. 

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Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Did Jon really do that? I thought Jon just sent Mance to collect the girl on the dying horse that Mel saw coming North. Jon knew nothing of Mance's plan to infiltrate Winterfell, I thought. 

Also, if you apply these ideas of "indirect guilt" then everyone is probably "guilty" of something horrendous. Arya saved Rorge and Biter (and Jaqen)... is she "guilty" of the destruction of Saltpans? 

Also, there's (probably) not an objective Judging Eye looking down on the world, and ticking boxes in regards to people's conduct. The notion of guilt and crime is subjective, and many in the North would likely argue this was no violation of Guest Right... The Boltons have no right to Winterfell, it's not their Home, therefore they cannot be Hosts at Winterfell, and guests have no obligation to them. The Bolton claim to the North is a lie, because Jeyne Poole is not Arya. Or, perhaps, Ramsey and Roose are criminals and traitors, for what they did in the sack of Winterfell and the Red Wedding, and the laws of hospitality do not apply to them. Or, Ramsey and Roose removed their own protections when they violated Guest Right themselves. 

Edited by Unacosamedarisa

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A big NO!

Firstly, the marriage is a fake one since Jeyne is not Arya and Bolton (s) possibly knows it.

Bolton is also not the host, he doesn't own WF. Ramsay claims WF through marriage to JEYNE POOLE who is not ARYA of the House STARK. No ownership of the roof means not being host and therefore no rites of the guest right.

Not owning the castle but still occupying it with armed force means you are hostile to the owners(which has been proven at least twice). If anything, Mance is acting under the orders of a former member of House Stark, Jon. Jon acts on behalf of Arya, the only member of house Stark that is alive and not hiding( he doesn't know her to be a fake), or in the interests of her. Also he doesn't know it but he is the ruler of House Stark through Robb's will and is also forgiven of his vows.

In short, Manse Raider is defending the rights of House Stark in the name and under the orders of it's head, Jon "Snow" Stark.

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55 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons.

Nonsense. The mariage was illegal (the girl was forced after her parents were killed), the maid is a fake, and to top it all everybody in the castle can hear the bridegroom torturing the poor girl…

Only deranged brain care about guest rights in presence of a psycho killer marrying illegaly a sexual slave in a stolen castle…

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Winterfell belong to Starks.

"When the Boltons arrive at Winterfell, Roose finds the ruined castle a refuge of more then two dozen squatters. When he tells them he will be merciful if they serve well, they are used as labor to partially restore Winterfell. They rebuild burned gates and raise a new roof over the Great Hall. After the work is completed Roose has them all hanged".

"Ramsay captures Moat Cailin from the ironborn by sending Theon in as an envoy. Ramsay promises food and safe passage to the sick and starving islanders if they surrender.[3] When they do surrender, Ramsay has all of them, bar his pet Theon, flayed alive and displays their skinless bodies on poles along the road by Moat Cailin. Roose is displeased by Ramsay's behavior, stating that he needs to be more discreet with his practices as his infamous exploits are now well known throughout the north."

Both Boltons are freaks, and they don't keep their word. So other people are not obliged to honor Boltons, with abiding to common rules of hospitality, when dealing with them.

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1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

It was a violation of guest rights.  Mance Rayder and the women with him are guilty.  Now, they were acting on Jon's orders to go get his sister.  Whether you can blame Jon indirectly depends on a couple of factors.  Can we hold Tywin responsible for Gregor's murder of Princess Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon?  Gregor was acting under Tywin's command.  I think so.  Therefore, Jon has to take part of the blame because it was him who released Mance and sent him on this mission.  Mance would not be at Winterfell if it were not for Jon's orders to fetch his sister.  Yeah, it is a violation of guest rights and Mance is guilty.  Jon Snow is partly to blame because he sent Mance.  

 

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Winterfell belong to Starks.

"When the Boltons arrive at Winterfell, Roose finds the ruined castle a refuge of more then two dozen squatters. When he tells them he will be merciful if they serve well, they are used as labor to partially restore Winterfell. They rebuild burned gates and raise a new roof over the Great Hall. After the work is completed Roose has them all hanged".

"Ramsay captures Moat Cailin from the ironborn by sending Theon in as an envoy. Ramsay promises food and safe passage to the sick and starving islanders if they surrender.[3] When they do surrender, Ramsay has all of them, bar his pet Theon, flayed alive and displays their skinless bodies on poles along the road by Moat Cailin. Roose is displeased by Ramsay's behavior, stating that he needs to be more discreet with his practices as his infamous exploits are now well known throughout the north."

Both Boltons are freaks, and they don't keep their word. So other people are not obliged to honor Boltons, with abiding to common rules of hospitality, when dealing with them.

Winterfell no longer belongs to the Starks, if you believe in the right of conquest.  

It has nothing to do with decency.  It has to do with laws and customs.  Robb is an oathbreaker and offended the Freys.  Did that make it alright for the Freys to violate guest rights?  

 

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55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No it does not, guest rights is an agreement between host and guest, no one else. 

Abel/Mance was a guest of the Boltons. 

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3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Abel/Mance was a guest of the Boltons. 

And Jon wasn't, is Bernie Mac's point, I think. Mance may have broken guest right, but Jon hasn't, because he wasn't a guest. Guest Right, and the breaking of it, can only affect the Host (Boltons) and the Guest (Mance). 3rd parties who may have facilitated the guests are not included and no breaking of Guest Right can be attributed to them. 

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27 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

 Winterfell no longer belongs to the Starks, if you believe in the right of conquest.  

Winterfell was not taken by conquest, but by betrayal. I find hard to believe that you don't see the difference.

Anyway, I guess Jon Snow will soon be blamed for global warming, the disappearance of great whales and the middle-class crisis…

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51 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It has nothing to do with decency.  It has to do with laws and customs.  Robb is an oathbreaker and offended the Freys.  Did that make it alright for the Freys to violate guest rights?  

Robb is indeed an oathbreaker, but all the rest of people present at Red Wedding were innocent, none of them didn't promised to marry with a Frey girl, and then broke their promise. So killing all of them, because of what Robb alone did, was wrong. Thus Freys did violated guest rights. Whatever was their deal with Robb, it didn't gave them right to kill all other guests. Though that, and Mance "kidnapping" fake Arya, are totally different things.

Slavery is forbidden by Old Gods. Fake Arya was Ramsay's sex slave. She married under false name, so their marriage is not valid. She's not his wife, and slavery is forbidden in The North, so she's not Ramsay's property. Thus Mance didn't kidnapped fArya, he helped her to escape from captivity. That's totally different things. So guests right wasn't broken.

9 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Winterfell was not taken by conquest, but by betrayal.

:agree:Boltons are not masters of Winterfell. They have zero rights to host their guests there.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

He entered under Roose's roof under false pretense. Wouldn't that nullify any claim to guest right? 

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2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Ooohh Juicy! 

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Nope that was Mel and most likely Stannis - I think he knows. Also, with Mance working with the Manderlys (he came as their singer even though WH is the largest city in the North and would have singers if any place did) And even if this were true - it doesn't violate guest right. Manderly bought all the food ever apparently so they didn't eat anything that belonged to the Boltons.

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

1

To whom? 

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

1

Pretty sure Manderly bought all the food. And if Mance is working with Manderly - well Manderly knows Rickon is alive and Rickon would be the true Lord of Winterfell. The Boltons are occupiers that didn't even supply the grub!

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

 

And Bolton men murdered WH men in the dining hall. I really think because of the food thing they don't have guest right. Manderly is deliciously sneaky that way.

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

Nope. Mel isn't there and neither is Jon. Can't violate guest rights if you aren't a guest. And then there's that pesky bread and salt thing. 

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

 

I'm really happy I stopped lurking. Chatting with you all is fun! This was an interesting thought too even though I do not agree.

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Jon did not send Mance to Winterfell. Jon thought Mance was going to intercept "Arya" well away from Winterfell.

And whose food is Mance and his spearwives eating? Wyman Manderly's? 

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The Boltons, as well as the Freys, have no right to "guest right" anymore, because of what they did to Robb Stark and his troops. If somebody comes into their place and does them dirty, well boo hoo hoo. A man reaps what he sows. Except for the Greyjoys, who "do not sow."

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2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

Not really.  Winterfell isn't the Boltons for one.  For two, Manderly brought the food, the Boltons didn't provide it. Last, Jeyne Poole was never married to Ramsay Bolton for real since she used a fake name, and no one named Arya was stolen from the castle.  Not to mention you can't steal someone who wants to come with you, and guest rights are voided when the host breaks them anyway.  If you would argue Jeyne was under guest rights then Ramsay broken them when he hurt her, same with Theon.  Its not just the guest promising to do no harm, it is the host as well.

But if you want to be technical, than the fact that Manderly brought the food is all we really need to say.

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33 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If you would argue Jeyne was under guest rights then Ramsay broken them when he hurt her, same with Theon.  Its not just the guest promising to do no harm, it is the host as well.

:agree:

fArya was imprisoned, even though she didn't commited any crimes, wasn't judged in court, wasn't proven guilty in anything. So they have no right to held her captive. If she's Bolton's guest, or even Ramsay's wife, then she has a right to go wherever she wants, and whenever she wants.

Guests do have right to leave. No? :huh:

Every person in 7K has a right to demand a Trial by Combat, but Boltons deprived fArya of such right, to be defended by someone who will fight for her freedom. It's like Mance and his six spearwives are fArya's champions in the Trial of Seven. They won for her a right to be free again.

Edited by Megorova

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3 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Apparently, Melisandre wanted Jon to send Mance to rescue his sister in order to gain Jon’s trust, but the especially curious issue here was that Melisandre saw Arya riding north, east of Long Lake, and Mance said he had a ploy in mind, asking for a handful of spearwives to help him, suggesting he knew that he would be going to Winterfell not the eastern shore of Long Lake. Later we found out with the arrival of Alys Karstark at Castle Black, that Mance did not even bother to look for Arya, and Jon began to suspect that Melisandre had some other task for Mance. He ended up thinking about Melisandre’s secret agenda at least twice more.

Disguised as Abel, an echo of Mance’s hero, Bael the Bard, the Mance wanted to know how Theon captured Winterfell. Clearly, Mance was attempting to find some way for Stannis to capture Winterfell. He also wanted Theon to show him the crypts. While Mance was apparently unable to find some way for Stannis to capture Winterfell by some trick, his spearwives began murdering men to fan the flames of animosity between House Frey and the Northmen, especially House Manderly. Presumably, Mance intended to hide in the crypts as Bael had done.

But why was Mance so eager, desperate even, to help the presumed Arya to escape? He did not seem to care about Theon, but he needed Theon to get the presumed Arya out. Did he believe that he had stumbled upon Arya Stark at Winterfell, and that he needed to get her out of the castle to fulfill Melisandre’s vision to foster good relations with Jon and to promote fidelity between the Free Folk and the North? Is that why he apparently sacrificed himself to free the presumed Arya? Theon was quite convinced that Abel would be caught and flayed by Ramsay, and that fate was apparently confirmed in the pink letter 

Spoiler

and in the Theon spoiler chapter from Winds, the events of which were confirmed to have occurred before Jon received the pink letter,

and foreshadowed in The Dornishman's Wife

Interestingly, one of the spearwives, Rowan, seemed to hold Theon in great contempt. This alone would not have been suspect, but she also took great umbrage at Theon’s use of House Stark’s words, suggesting she was actually a daughter of the North rather than a native of the Free Folk, although there did seem to be a grudging respect, or awe, for House Stark among the Free Folk. Rowan, tall and skinny, too lean and leathery to be called pretty, but attractive with auburn hair, could very well have been the daughter Mors lost during a wilding raid. 

Perhaps Mance stoped at Last Hearth with Rowan on his way to Winterfell. Perhaps Rowan convinced her father that he should not be demanding Mance’s skull for a drinking cup after all.

Mors later arrived at Winterfell. He did not attack, but he started blowing war horns, presumably to instill fear in the defenders, but possibly to alert agents on the inside, and notice that was precisely when Mance decided it was time to bug out. 

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If you would argue Jeyne was under guest rights then Ramsay broken them when he hurt her, same with Theon.  Its not just the guest promising to do no harm, it is the host as well.

Jeyne ("Arya") is not a "guest." She's Ramsey's lawfully married wife - that is to say, his property. He has wide latitude in how he treats her, and let's just note also that "intramarital rape" is not a thing in Westeros. (Sadly.)

As I noted, it doesn't matter who "owns" Winterfell. It doesn't matter who brought the food. It doesn't matter what names people call themselves by, nor who ate what, nor who sent whom, nor how mean they were. "Guest right" isn't something that is meant to be lawyered to death. But the only important factor is this: Bolton (and Frey), by their treacheries, are not entitled to it.

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