Did Roose Send The Pink Letter To Jon Snow?

[The Sunland Lord]

Do you guys and girls think there's a possibility that Roose wrote, or at least sent the Pink Letter? 

He clearly has interest to remove Jon Snow. A supporter of Stannis, and Ned Stark's son (as far as he knows)? I'd bet he has informants on the Wall, it's the smart way to play. Most likely Marsh is one of his pets. The latter is a well-known "I am there where power resides" man, confirmed by his plotting to put Slynt as a Lord Commander after Tywin advised him it's in his best interest to do so.

What if Roose was cahooting with Marsh to kill Jon Snow, and the Pink Letter is there just to provoke Jon to react the way he did and for Marsh to have a pretext to kill Jon? Everything was so fast in there. It seemed well planned. And, Roose is known to plan such events. Ramsay is not.

Ghost was disturbed by Marsh's presence even before Jon received the PL. Exactly the way Grey Wind was disturbed by the Freys before the Red Wedding. And Jon caged Ghost, exactly the way Grey Wind was caged before Robb was murdered. We know that Direwolves sense betrayal and are distrustful of certain kind of people.

So, Marsh was cooking betrayal. He didn't react spontaneously, he wasn't at all surprised when Jon read the letter aloud, he just ran away to prepare for his deed. Do you think he'd act that way on his own? The man has support, or he thinks he does.

Another clue that the PL and Jon's murder were planned and coordinated events rather than accidental and disconnected from each other is Melisandre's previous warnings to Jon. If something was not cooking against Jon already, why would she see it in the flames? She is good at predictions, but not THAT good (like Moqorro) to see that Jon's murder would've happen so quickly and out of the blue. 

Anyhow, while there are people claiming that actually Ramsay wrote it (obvious choice), Stannis (I personally don't think so), and Mance (there's a strong case for him, the vocabulary resembles Mance's), no one seems to point his finger at Roose so far. 

[Mat92]

Sure there's a possibility, but we have so little information to go on that it is purely speculation at this point. 

Personally, I can't really see Roose conspiring with someone at the Nights Watch to kill Jon. Roose is a smart man, and probably knows well enough from Robb that the Stark boys have a strong moral compass (Robb falling in love not withstanding), therefore I don't think he's worried about Jon as Jon has sworn his life to the Watch and can't intervene directly. 

In terms of the indirect influence Jon has, this can pretty much be summed up by letting wildlings beyond the wall and into the north, however Roose is pretty preoccupied with preparing for Stannis and his army, not to mention that his own guests of Winterfell (Freys, Manderlys, etc) are fighting each other, AND a few people are turning up murdered... 

For this plan to work, the letter would have to provoke Jon so much that he would break his vows AND try and get everyone on board to help him AND assume that the situation at the wall is so hostile that the institution that is often seen by the north as extremely honourable would have a reason to kill their own Lord Commander. It seems pretty complicated, even if Roose was in cahoots with someone. 

On 20/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, The Sunland Lord said:

What if Roose was cahooting with Marsh to kill Jon Snow, and the Pink Letter is there just to provoke Jon to react the way he did and for Marsh to have a pretext to kill Jon? Everything was so fast in there. It seemed well planned. And, Roose is known to plan such events. Ramsay is not.

The unrest at the wall can easily be summed up with their disagreement with Jon's decision to bring the wildlings through. It would have been going on for some time, and for an institution with such tradition (aka: wildlings are the perceived enemy for so long) then this would have been the final straw. You also say that they don't seem surprised when Jon reads the letter aloud - I think the reaction is more about the fact that they know what Jon is about to do, and they have to stop it to protect the watch (in their eyes). I don't think Roose needs to factor in. It just complicates things.

If this was Roose's plan, it's extremely possible that the Watch DOESN'T kill Jon, in which case Roose has provoked Jon and an army of Wildlings/NW to link up with Stannis. Not a smart plan. 

 

On 20/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, The Sunland Lord said:

Another clue that the PL and Jon's murder were planned and coordinated events rather than accidental and disconnected from each other is Melisandre's previous warnings to Jon. If something was not cooking against Jon already, why would she see it in the flames? She is good at predictions, but not THAT good (like Moqorro) to see that Jon's murder would've happen so quickly and out of the blue. 

I dunno about this - regardless of whether it was planned or spur of the moment, Jon dying is still Jon dying. Same with the comment about Ghost around Marsh: Ghost could just be sensing his hostility towards Jon's decisions. 

I think Ramsay or Mance are the top suspects. But who knows, GRRM could surprise us and Roose could have another tactic!

[ToysoldierXIII]

Sincerely doubt it and I'm convinced it wasn't Ramsay either because it is so dissimilar to his others.

Most of the breakdowns here are trying to figure out if it was Mance, Stannis, or Theon since all three have things that connect them to it - the knowledge, the wording, the raven, etc.

All three of them are in the same place and basically on the same side right now; my gut says they wrote it together. Or at minimum Stannis wrote it after Mance revealed himself and he grilled Theon.

[Damsel in Distress]

Ramsay Bolton sent the Pink Letter in response to Jon Snow's "attack" on his house.  Taking the bride away from the son of the Warden of North right from his household is an act of war.  Jon stuck his nose into the affairs of Ramsay and Roose Bolton.

Ramsay caught the wildlings and tortured all of the information out of them.  He  has all of the information needed to write the letter and the means to send a raven to Castle Black.  

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Ramsay Bolton sent the Pink Letter in response to Jon Snow's "attack" on his house.  Taking the bride away from the son of the Warden of North right from his household is an act of war.  Jon stuck his nose into the affairs of Ramsay and Roose Bolton.

Ramsay caught the wildlings and tortured all of the information out of them.  He  has all of the information needed to write the letter and the means to send a raven to Castle Black.  

Except, that is not how the books put it. You are quite honestly leaving half of the details out, including that part where Ramsay threatens the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch (the protectors of the realm) by claiming he will cut the heart out of LC Jon Snow if he doesn’t return his (fake) bride. Jon can’t do that because he doesn’t have Jeyne Poole to do so, which means Ramsay will attack the Watch first. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

14 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Ramsay Bolton sent the Pink Letter in response to Jon Snow's "attack" on his house.  Taking the bride away from the son of the Warden of North right from his household is an act of war.  Jon stuck his nose into the affairs of Ramsay and Roose Bolton.

Ramsay caught the wildlings and tortured all of the information out of them.  He  has all of the information needed to write the letter and the means to send a raven to Castle Black.  

Without the bs in the beginning, you are of course right.

 

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Except, that is not how the books put it. You are quite honestly leaving half of the details out, including that part where Ramsay threatens the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch (the protectors of the realm) by claiming he will cut the heart out of LC Jon Snow if he doesn’t return his (fake) bride. Jon can’t do that because he doesn’t have Jeyne Poole to do so, which means Ramsay will attack the Watch first. 

That is the contents of the letter, but the reasons he gives for Ramsay sending it are, while undetailed and ridiculously phrased, still correct.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:47 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

Do you guys and girls think there's a possibility that Roose wrote, or at least sent the Pink Letter? 

He clearly has interest to remove Jon Snow. A supporter of Stannis, and Ned Stark's son (as far as he knows)? I'd bet he has informants on the Wall, it's the smart way to play. Most likely Marsh is one of his pets. The latter is a well-known "I am there where power resides" man, confirmed by his plotting to put Slynt as a Lord Commander after Tywin advised him it's in his best interest to do so.

What if Roose was cahooting with Marsh to kill Jon Snow, and the Pink Letter is there just to provoke Jon to react the way he did and for Marsh to have a pretext to kill Jon? Everything was so fast in there. It seemed well planned. And, Roose is known to plan such events. Ramsay is not.

Ghost was disturbed by Marsh's presence even before Jon received the PL. Exactly the way Grey Wind was disturbed by the Freys before the Red Wedding. And Jon caged Ghost, exactly the way Grey Wind was caged before Robb was murdered. We know that Direwolves sense betrayal and are distrustful of certain kind of people.

So, Marsh was cooking betrayal. He didn't react spontaneously, he wasn't at all surprised when Jon read the letter aloud, he just ran away to prepare for his deed. Do you think he'd act that way on his own? The man has support, or he thinks he does.

Another clue that the PL and Jon's murder were planned and coordinated events rather than accidental and disconnected from each other is Melisandre's previous warnings to Jon. If something was not cooking against Jon already, why would she see it in the flames? She is good at predictions, but not THAT good (like Moqorro) to see that Jon's murder would've happen so quickly and out of the blue. 

Anyhow, while there are people claiming that actually Ramsay wrote it (obvious choice), Stannis (I personally don't think so), and Mance (there's a strong case for him, the vocabulary resembles Mance's), no one seems to point his finger at Roose so far. 

Can you give me a reason as to why Roose would pretend to be Ramsay, because I can't figure.  Given that most people would take Roose more seriously than Ramsay, it would seem counter productive.  I personally think Ramsay has just killed Roose because he wanted to march on Castle Black and Roose pointed out the problems with that and possibly Ramsay found out Walda is/was pregnant, then when he calmed down a bit he realized Roose was right and marching on Castle Black could go very poorly indeed.

[Leo of House Cartel]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Can you give me a reason as to why Roose would pretend to be Ramsay, because I can't figure.  Given that most people would take Roose more seriously than Ramsay, it would seem counter productive.  I personally think Ramsay has just killed Roose because he wanted to march on Castle Black and Roose pointed out the problems with that and possibly Ramsay found out Walda is/was pregnant, then when he calmed down a bit he realized Roose was right and marching on Castle Black could go very poorly indeed.

An interesting idea, would certainly be a bombastic twist if Ramsay had already killed Roose by the time TWOW begins.

In terms of reasons for Roose to pose as Ramsay and write the Pink Letter, I'm not sure. Perhaps Roose intends to dispose of Ramsay, once his seat is more secure as Warden of The North. Then again, if Lord Bolton wanted rid if his son, I'm sure he could have it arranged without the hassle of a Pink Letter.

[The Sunland Lord]

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Can you give me a reason as to why Roose would pretend to be Ramsay, because I can't figure.  Given that most people would take Roose more seriously than Ramsay, it would seem counter productive.  I personally think Ramsay has just killed Roose because he wanted to march on Castle Black and Roose pointed out the problems with that and possibly Ramsay found out Walda is/was pregnant, then when he calmed down a bit he realized Roose was right and marching on Castle Black could go very poorly indeed.

That question is difficult to answer, I admit. But, my suspicions that Roose wrote/sent the Pink Letter are not based on that. 

Rather on several other points:

Why the hell would Roose let Ramsay question Mance, knowing him for the mad dog he is? Don't you think Roose has taken the responsibility to question Mance after Theon and Jeyne escaped?

Some of the contents in that letter are true. Some of them are unconfirmed, and might be false. For example, Roose is clever enough to make up the story about defeating Stannis, because that way Jon would see fit to attack Roose with his own men, rather than rely on Stannis, who is supposedly smashed. This way, Roose knows that Jon's impulse would be to attack him, and this is when Bowen's role comes to play: Jon is going to break the rule of the Watch's neutrality, so his removal is perfectly justified. Sounds Rooseish to me.

It might be that Roose, during the questioning of Mance, had someone writing the letter and that's the reason Mance's vocabulary is all over it. Roose saw it necessary to send the letter quickly. If he had informants and pets working for him in Castle Black, like I stated he might had in the OP, it would be of priority for him to kill the Stannis's supporter, and someone who is actually, in Roose's point of view, Ned Stark's son. 

 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

 

6 hours ago, Mat92 said:

The unrest at the wall can easily be summed up with their disagreement with Jon's decision to bring the wildlings through. It would have been going on for some time, and for an institution with such tradition (aka: wildlings are the perceived enemy for so long) then this would have been the final straw. You also say that they don't seem surprised when Jon reads the letter aloud - I think the reaction is more about the fact that they know what Jon is about to do, and they have to stop it to protect the watch (in their eyes). I don't think Roose needs to factor in. It just complicates things.

I have to disagree on this.

Why would Bowen Marsh and other mutineers want to murder Jon AFTER he let the wildlings through the Wall? As mush as Bowen hates wildlings, he still did let it happen, didn't he? If he cared too much, he would've conspire to murder Jon to prevent this. I doubt that the author made it that simple, and make Bowen act retroactively.

What is gonna Bowen do now, kill all the free folk in their sleep, or exile them all beyond the Wall? He doesn't have the mentality nor the power to do this. Some bigger people are protecting him, if you ask me.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Except, that is not how the books put it. You are quite honestly leaving half of the details out, including that part where Ramsay threatens the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch (the protectors of the realm) by claiming he will cut the heart out of LC Jon Snow if he doesn’t return his (fake) bride. Jon can’t do that because he doesn’t have Jeyne Poole to do so, which means Ramsay will attack the Watch first. 

But see, this where the convoluted timeline caused by the delay of Theon, Winds screws up our assumptions. Even before Theon, Dance, we were anticipating some betrayal by House Manderley. If the Theon, Winds is published before Jon XIII, Dance, 

Spoiler

we would be expecting a ruse, and then when we read Jin XIII, we would assume that the men Ramsay "captured" had told him that Theon Greyjoy was sent to the Wall with Arya Stark, that later of which was on her way to the Wall. 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

I have to disagree on this.

Why would Bowen Marsh and other mutineers want to murder Jon AFTER he let the wildlings through the Wall? As mush as Bowen hates wildlings, he still did let it happen, didn't he? If he cared too much, he would've conspire to murder Jon to prevent this. I doubt that the author made it that simple, and make Bowen act retroactively.

What is gonna Bowen do now, kill all the free folk in their sleep, or exile them all beyond the Wall? He doesn't have the mentality nor the power to do this. Some bigger people are protecting him, if you ask me.

Marsh, Slynt, Thorne (and maybe Yarwyck, I’d have to go back and check) we’re caught plotting to kill Jon back in ASOS after Jon returned from ranging. And this mutiny is the third attempt on Jon’s life, but just so happens to be the one most hastily carried out. So the mutiny seems to be because marsh and Slynt let politics of KL interfere with their NW duties, as well as Jon saving a “whole people” from being enslaved by the Others as a massive army against the living, seemed to enrage the mutineers enough to attempt to kill Jon. The pink letter timing paired with Ser Patrek trying to steal Val created a “chink in the wall”.  

That “fourth knife” is highly suspect, and some additional force could be making Marsh and co move in at the stupidest time, but that is another thread. 

And yes, I have a feeling Marsh will come up with the genius plan to try and put the remaining free folk back on the other side of the wall... or something equally disastrous. 

[The Fattest Leech]

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But see, this where the convoluted timeline caused by the delay of Theon, Winds screws up our assumptions. Even before Theon, Dance, we were anticipating some betrayal by House Manderley. If the Theon, Winds is published before Jon XIII, Dance, 

  Hide contents

we would be expecting a ruse, and then when we read Jin XIII, we would assume that the men Ramsay "captured" had told him that Theon Greyjoy was sent to the Wall with Arya Stark, that later of which was on her way to the Wall. 

 

True. For the readers benefit. But not from Jon’s perspective and limited knowledge of only what the bastard letter claims and the statements made within. 

ADDING: LM, I realized I think you and I may be talking about some

of the same components, just from different angles. Oops! I’m tying to Ice and Fire on my phone while grocery shopping. 

[The Sunland Lord]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

In terms of reasons for Roose to pose as Ramsay and write the Pink Letter, I'm not sure. Perhaps Roose intends to dispose of Ramsay, once his seat is more secure as Warden of The North. Then again, if Lord Bolton wanted rid if his son, I'm sure he could have it arranged without the hassle of a Pink Letter.

You just gave me an idea, and it might help answer @aryagonnakill#2's question: Blame it on the Bastard. He is playing this game successfully from book 1 up to this day, doesn't he? 

I can totally see him saying in a classic mob chief style: "Deary dear, my Bastard sent this letter to the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and threatened our respected and ancient order of Brothers and defenders of the Realm. But, what's done is done, isn't it? The boy is dead. Here, I'll spank my vile Bastard and call it a day. Business must go on as usual, doesn't it?"

 

[The Sunland Lord]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Marsh, Slynt, Thorne (and maybe Yarwyck, I’d have to go back and check) we’re caught plotting to kill Jon back in ASOS after Jon returned from ranging. And this mutiny is the third attempt on Jon’s life, but just so happens to be the one most hastily carried out. So the mutiny seems to be because marsh and Slynt let politics of KL interfere with their NW duties, as well as Jon saving a “whole people” from being enslaved by the Others as a massive army against the living, seemed to enrage the mutineers enough to attempt to kill Jon. The pink letter timing paired with Ser Patrek trying to steal Val created a “chink in the wall”.  

Didn't we see them conspiring to put Slynt on the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch's chair? I don't remember that Jon overheard them conspiring against him. I am aware of Tywin's plan, but he packed in a "Slynt, the loyal servant of the Crown" box, not in a "Kill Jon Snow" box. Slynt, of course, knew, but doesn't mean that Bowen knew of the plan. He is just going with the Crown's flow, as far as I know.

Even so, if I am wrong, I'll stand corrected. However, if true, this doesn't exclude Roose from conspiring with Bowen now, when Tywin is dead and the Crown doesn't vouch for Bowen Marsh.  

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That “fourth knife” is highly suspect, and some additional force could be making Marsh and co move in at the stupidest time, but that is another thread. 

Skinchanging, for example? Doubt it, but I agree it's another story anyways.

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And yes, I have a feeling Marsh will come up with the genius plan to try and put the remaining free folk back on the other side of the wall... or something equally disastrous. 

While a limited man, Marsh can't go against them now. He doesn't have the higher ground, as the Night's Watch once had.  

[The Sunland Lord]

3 hours ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

Sincerely doubt it and I'm convinced it wasn't Ramsay either because it is so dissimilar to his others.

Most of the breakdowns here are trying to figure out if it was Mance, Stannis, or Theon since all three have things that connect them to it - the knowledge, the wording, the raven, etc.

All three of them are in the same place and basically on the same side right now; my gut says they wrote it together. Or at minimum Stannis wrote it after Mance revealed himself and he grilled Theon.

I don't think it was Stannis. He knows that Jon Snow doesn't have an idea who Reek actually is. Stannis has a sharp mind. I don't see him letting that slip through his hands.

Like I already mentioned, yes, there is a strong case that Mance wrote it.

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Didn't we see them conspiring to put Slynt on the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch's chair? I don't remember that Jon overheard them conspiring against him. I am aware of Tywin's plan, but he packed in a "Slynt, the loyal servant of the Crown" box, not in a "Kill Jon Snow" box. Slynt, of course, knew, but doesn't mean that Bowen knew of the plan. He is just going with the Crown's flow, as far as I know.

Jon hears them “plotting” and when you add up the history of the plotters, some with existing Stark hate, and others being pushed to the front of the line by the same guy that plans the Red Wedding, and later the same family (Cersei), there is a lot of angst against Jon already. 

As I told LM above, I’m sneak posting while trying to shop for pizza and ice cream and can’t quite quite the right way at the moment. 

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Even so, if I am wrong, I'll stand corrected. However, if true, this doesn't exclude Roose from conspiring with Bowen now, when Tywin is dead and the Crown doesn't vouch for Bowen Marsh.  

Possibly. Roose could have taken up those reins after Tywin shat his tarnished gold, but I don’t know we have seen that so far. 

Other than Roose, there is plenty of reason to suspect (by the reader) that the the bastard letter was mucked with before Jon receives it personally. Or not. 

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Skinchanging, for example? Doubt it, but I agree it's another story anyways.

Nope, not skinchanging. Another type of “hand”.  

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

While a limited man, Marsh can't go against them now. He doesn't have the higher ground, as the Night's Watch once had.  

I agree that among a few other details, the NW are outnumbered by the free folk “five to one”, I believe is how Jon described it. However, I still am expecting to see Marsh try to pull a fast one that just ends up making everything worse. Jon will be out for a while (I suspect 3-9 Days), but this could maybe allow time for other antics to happen. Marsh was rather concerned with  the turnip count at the wall. 

[The Sunland Lord]

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon hears them “plotting” and when you add up the history of the plotters, some with existing Stark hate, and others being pushed to the front of the line by the same guy that plans the Red Wedding, and later the same family (Cersei), there is a lot of angst against Jon already. 

Stark hate or not, they must have reason (fear, rewards, titles) to betray Jon. Thorne is pretty open about disliking Jon, yet he obeys his commands, as did Bowen and the other mutineers up to a point, so I wouldn't say there is a blind Stark hate only in question. 

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

As I told LM above, I’m sneak posting while trying to shop for pizza and ice cream and can’t quite quite the right way at the moment. 

Bon appetit.

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Possibly. Roose could have taken up those reins after Tywin shat his tarnished gold, but I don’t know we have seen that so far. 

Of course, and this thread is about opening that possibility until we know for certain.

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Other than Roose, there is plenty of reason to suspect (by the reader) that the the bastard letter was mucked with before Jon receives it personally. Or not. 

Didn't think of this. Maybe.

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nope, not skinchanging. Another type of “hand”.  

What, then? 

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree that among a few other details, the NW are outnumbered by the free folk “five to one”, I believe is how Jon described it. However, I still am expecting to see Marsh try to pull a fast one that just ends up making everything worse. Jon will be out for a while (I suspect 3-9 Days), but this could maybe allow time for other antics to happen. Marsh was rather concerned with  the turnip count at the wall. 

This may happen, or not, but it would be a suicide mission for Marsh. And at least, he knows when and how to protect his arse. At least for now. If he actually start with enforcing that idea, he is meat even before Jon wakes up (If he does).

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Stark hate or not, they must have reason (fear, rewards, titles) to betray Jon. Thorne is pretty open about disliking Jon, yet he obeys his commands, as did Bowen and the other mutineers up to a point, so I wouldn't say there is a blind Stark hate only in question. 

Only one has the blind Stark hate, Thorne.  The rest like Slynt, who stole from his brothers pay back when he was in KL, is just a lickspittle arse, which is why Tywin was meddling in politics with the NW. Marsh is a beancounter who again, can’t really deduce the mass tragedy he caused by stabbing Jon. Marsh is worried about turnips. Yarwyck was one of the known plotters in ASOS, and he even had some words against Jon in AFFC, but by ADWD, we see a change in Yarwyck. Yarwyck ends up being the only one of the remaining three mutineers to accept Jon’s “guest right” hospitality to eat and drink with him in Jon’s quarters. Marsh refuses, and that is a huge foreshadowing hint to readers. I’ll find it when I get home. Now Thorne is the only interesting one left. Jon sent him ranging fairly early, so the continued schemes he is not part of (as Jon notes), and there is a weird line from Thorne about “returning”.  And if Jon is Lyannas son, Jon is the product of the sun (Rhaegar) and the flower-moon. Lyanna has an issue with “hidden thrones” in her garland (again, I can’t quite a the moment), so Thorne is linked to Jon “winter rose” in other ways. 

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Bon appetit.

Thank you. 

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Of course, and this thread is about opening that possibility until we know for certain.

Didn't think of this. Maybe.

What, then? 

Aaahhhh, can you tell I hesitate to say? 

think, fiery hand. Search that in the site. 

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This may happen, or not, but it would be a suicide mission for Marsh. And at least, he knows when and how to protect his arse. At least for now. If he actually start with enforcing that idea, he is meat even before Jon wakes up (If he does).

I agree. But it’s the details between then and then that interest me  GRRM said something about “a lot happening at the wall” in some post ADWD interview (again, I’ll link later) which could mean things aren’t running smoothly for a bit. The mutineers “broke” the watch and the watch is only as strong as those that hold it, but I don’t think it is falling yet. Just a chink has opened. 

The more I talk about this, the more I realize that the pink bastard letter is a diversion, like Ariannes nipples. No, I’m not kidding. When you think of Arianne what is the first, and maybe only thing, that pops into your mind? (meaning anyone- not you personally) Ariannes physical looks so far have left readers confused as hell to what her part in the Dorne plot arc is. Her actions don’t make sense until her TWOW chapters begin. The story is going on in the other direction, but we have our eyes set in the wrong way. We fell for it!   We are the wrong way rangers! 

(And yes, I am being a little cheeky at the end) 

[The Sunland Lord]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Only one has the blind Stark hate, Thorne.  The rest like Slynt, who stole from his brothers pay back when he was in KL, is just a lickspittle arse, which is why Tywin was meddling in politics with the NW. Marsh is a beancounter who again, can’t really deduce the mass tragedy he caused by stabbing Jon. Marsh is worried about turnips. Yarwyck was one of the known plotters in ASOS, and he even had some words against Jon in AFFC, but by ADWD, we see a change in Yarwyck. Yarwyck ends up being the only one of the remaining three mutineers to accept Jon’s “guest right” hospitality to eat and drink with him in Jon’s quarters. Marsh refuses, and that is a huge foreshadowing hint to readers. I’ll find it when I get home. Now Thorne is the only interesting one left. Jon sent him ranging fairly early, so the continued schemes he is not part of (as Jon notes), and there is a weird line from Thorne about “returning”.  And if Jon is Lyannas son, Jon is the product of the sun (Rhaegar) and the flower-moon. Lyanna has an issue with “hidden thrones” in her garland (again, I can’t quite a the moment), so Thorne is linked to Jon “winter rose” in other ways. 

Thorne said he will return as an undead, or an Other, don't remember. But it doesn't mean he will. He might be back alive as a human and react this way or that way to the situation. As for the rest of it, I don't know about those parallels. 

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Thank you. 

Aaahhhh, can you tell I hesitate to say? 

think, fiery hand. Search that in the site. 

The search tool doesn't work for content titles for me. And there's a lot of stuff turning up in the posts. I know only of the R'hllorist's knights on the matter.

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The more I talk about this, the more I realize that the pink bastard letter is a diversion, like Ariannes nipples. No, I’m not kidding. When you think of Arianne what is the first, and maybe only thing, that pops into your mind? (meaning anyone- not you personally) Ariannes physical looks so far have left readers confused as hell to what her part in the Dorne plot arc is. Her actions don’t make sense until her TWOW chapters begin. The story is going on in the other direction, but we have our eyes set in the wrong way. We fell for it!   We are the wrong way rangers! 

Arriane? Honestly. Guess at once. Must I say? What else would I?  

Spoiler

An "S" word with three letters

Haven't read her WOW chapter.