Jump to content
Shaggingdog

The Others and the Direwolves

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone.  I'm a (very) long time lurker but this is my first post - other than in the introduction thread.  I first read "Game of Thrones" back in 1998 and haven't re-read anything so I get a lot of the great details from visiting this site.  So I'm a 20-year sufferer of this incredible story's pace.

Because I haven't re-read much, I am lost in some of the detailed theories of the families of this tale and who may be the child of whomever.  I tend to like the bigger theories, those that deal with the main characters or the main thrust of the narrative.  So, I'm going to give you one of mine.  Maybe it's been discussed before, but I'm not the most computer literate lady in the forum and I may have missed it.  Feel free to debunk my theory or direct me to threads that have debunked it or discussed it.  Even so, with so many topics, I don't see the harm in bringing something up again that may have already been hammered to death in ages past.

OK, enough blather, here's the theory:

I agree with those who think the Others didn't bring the Long Winter but merely thrive - and attack - when the long winter comes.  This time, however, I think the Others are likely to more dangerous and more successful than the previous time.  Why?  Because their natural predators have been diminished.  And those natural predators?  Not the dragons, but rather the direwolves.  Just as the Others are immune to the normal weapons of humanity (notwithstanding weapons of dragon glass and Valyrian steel) so I believe the direwolves are immune to the ice weapons of the Others and are thus their natural predators.

OK, my evidence is purely circumstantial.  But I'll give it anyway.

  1. George originally entitled the last book "A Time for Wolves."  I do think he loves double meanings and he has primed us to think the hidden meaning is the most important.  Until the end.  I thought "A Time for Wolves" meant the return of the Starks, but maybe it is as it states: the time for the direwolves to win the day.
  2. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."  Maybe that has changed over the centuries from "There must always be direwolves in the North" to deter the Others.
  3. There just has to be more to direwolves than George has given us.  Yes, they are huge, ferocious animals that can rip the strongest man to pieces and they are easily - and very closely - warged by Starks, but they can be killed quite readily.  The mother of the Stark children's direwolves was killed by a stag (the obvious connection between Stark and Baratheon aside).  Lady died easily as did Grey Wind.  Other fantastic creatures in the series - dragons, Others, Children, etc. - have great powers, but not so direwolves, at least not as we've been shown.  Surely there is more to them than we've been given.
  4. IIRC, the old statues of the Stark kings in the crypt are shown with direwolves as if the direwolves held some high and special place.  They no longer do.
  5. The Last Hero went north with 6 (is that right?) men and a dog and won.  I believe the "dog" to be a direwolf that brought together the direwolves beyond the Wall that defeated the Others.
  6. I think the Wildlings wiped out the direwolf population north of the wall in order to protect their herds.  With their natural predator gone, the Others easily moved south with no one having the knowledge to stop them in their way, especially as the Long Winter gave them their needed environment.
  7. George is, at heart, a hippie who believes humanity's disturbance of a natural order will lead to destruction.  The Wildlings disturbed the natural order, and the Others are coming to bring destruction because of it.

So, in the end, I believe the Others will breach the Wall and bring massive destruction to much of the northern half of Westoros only to be defeated (not destroyed) by a pack of direwolves, probably led by Nymeria.  Perhaps the wolves will be joined by Dany's dragons who will wipe out the Wights as well.  As before, the Others will have to choose peace in order to survive.  And, yes, many of the direwolves will die in the final confrontation as well.

So, like I said, this is my pet theory.  I'm perfectly OK with it being shot down if need be so I can try to think of another one.

Oh, and glad to finally post for the first time!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Shaggingdog said:

Hi everyone.  I'm a (very) long time lurker but this is my first post - other than in the introduction thread.  I first read "Game of Thrones" back in 1998 and haven't re-read anything so I get a lot of the great details from visiting this site.  So I'm a 20-year sufferer of this incredible story's pace.

Because I haven't re-read much, I am lost in some of the detailed theories of the families of this tale and who may be the child of whomever.  I tend to like the bigger theories, those that deal with the main characters or the main thrust of the narrative.  So, I'm going to give you one of mine.  Maybe it's been discussed before, but I'm not the most computer literate lady in the forum and I may have missed it.  Feel free to debunk my theory or direct me to threads that have debunked it or discussed it.  Even so, with so many topics, I don't see the harm in bringing something up again that may have already been hammered to death in ages past.

OK, enough blather, here's the theory:

I agree with those who think the Others didn't bring the Long Winter but merely thrive - and attack - when the long winter comes.  This time, however, I think the Others are likely to more dangerous and more successful than the previous time.  Why?  Because their natural predators have been diminished.  And those natural predators?  Not the dragons, but rather the direwolves.  Just as the Others are immune to the normal weapons of humanity (notwithstanding weapons of dragon glass and Valyrian steel) so I believe the direwolves are immune to the ice weapons of the Others and are thus their natural predators.

OK, my evidence is purely circumstantial.  But I'll give it anyway.

  1. George originally entitled the last book "A Time for Wolves."  I do think he loves double meanings and he has primed us to think the hidden meaning is the most important.  Until the end.  I thought "A Time for Wolves" meant the return of the Starks, but maybe it is as it states: the time for the direwolves to win the day.
  2. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."  Maybe that has changed over the centuries from "There must always be direwolves in the North" to deter the Others.
  3. There just has to be more to direwolves than George has given us.  Yes, they are huge, ferocious animals that can rip the strongest man to pieces and they are easily - and very closely - warged by Starks, but they can be killed quite readily.  The mother of the Stark children's direwolves was killed by a stag (the obvious connection between Stark and Baratheon aside).  Lady died easily as did Grey Wind.  Other fantastic creatures in the series - dragons, Others, Children, etc. - have great powers, but not so direwolves, at least not as we've been shown.  Surely there is more to them than we've been given.
  4. IIRC, the old statues of the Stark kings in the crypt are shown with direwolves as if the direwolves held some high and special place.  They no longer do.
  5. The Last Hero went north with 6 (is that right?) men and a dog and won.  I believe the "dog" to be a direwolf that brought together the direwolves beyond the Wall that defeated the Others.
  6. I think the Wildlings wiped out the direwolf population north of the wall in order to protect their herds.  With their natural predator gone, the Others easily moved south with no one having the knowledge to stop them in their way, especially as the Long Winter gave them their needed environment.
  7. George is, at heart, a hippie who believes humanity's disturbance of a natural order will lead to destruction.  The Wildlings disturbed the natural order, and the Others are coming to bring destruction because of it.

So, in the end, I believe the Others will breach the Wall and bring massive destruction to much of the northern half of Westoros only to be defeated (not destroyed) by a pack of direwolves, probably led by Nymeria.  Perhaps the wolves will be joined by Dany's dragons who will wipe out the Wights as well.  As before, the Others will have to choose peace in order to survive.  And, yes, many of the direwolves will die in the final confrontation as well.

So, like I said, this is my pet theory.  I'm perfectly OK with it being shot down if need be so I can try to think of another one.

Oh, and glad to finally post for the first time!

what you say makes sense

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Shaggingdog said:

Hi everyone.  I'm a (very) long time lurker but this is my first post - other than in the introduction thread.  I first read "Game of Thrones" back in 1998 and haven't re-read anything so I get a lot of the great details from visiting this site.  So I'm a 20-year sufferer of this incredible story's pace.

Because I haven't re-read much, I am lost in some of the detailed theories of the families of this tale and who may be the child of whomever.  I tend to like the bigger theories, those that deal with the main characters or the main thrust of the narrative.  So, I'm going to give you one of mine.  Maybe it's been discussed before, but I'm not the most computer literate lady in the forum and I may have missed it.  Feel free to debunk my theory or direct me to threads that have debunked it or discussed it.  Even so, with so many topics, I don't see the harm in bringing something up again that may have already been hammered to death in ages past.

OK, enough blather, here's the theory:

I agree with those who think the Others didn't bring the Long Winter but merely thrive - and attack - when the long winter comes.  This time, however, I think the Others are likely to more dangerous and more successful than the previous time.  Why?  Because their natural predators have been diminished.  And those natural predators?  Not the dragons, but rather the direwolves.  Just as the Others are immune to the normal weapons of humanity (notwithstanding weapons of dragon glass and Valyrian steel) so I believe the direwolves are immune to the ice weapons of the Others and are thus their natural predators.

OK, my evidence is purely circumstantial.  But I'll give it anyway.

  1. George originally entitled the last book "A Time for Wolves."  I do think he loves double meanings and he has primed us to think the hidden meaning is the most important.  Until the end.  I thought "A Time for Wolves" meant the return of the Starks, but maybe it is as it states: the time for the direwolves to win the day.
  2. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."  Maybe that has changed over the centuries from "There must always be direwolves in the North" to deter the Others.
  3. There just has to be more to direwolves than George has given us.  Yes, they are huge, ferocious animals that can rip the strongest man to pieces and they are easily - and very closely - warged by Starks, but they can be killed quite readily.  The mother of the Stark children's direwolves was killed by a stag (the obvious connection between Stark and Baratheon aside).  Lady died easily as did Grey Wind.  Other fantastic creatures in the series - dragons, Others, Children, etc. - have great powers, but not so direwolves, at least not as we've been shown.  Surely there is more to them than we've been given.
  4. IIRC, the old statues of the Stark kings in the crypt are shown with direwolves as if the direwolves held some high and special place.  They no longer do.
  5. The Last Hero went north with 6 (is that right?) men and a dog and won.  I believe the "dog" to be a direwolf that brought together the direwolves beyond the Wall that defeated the Others.
  6. I think the Wildlings wiped out the direwolf population north of the wall in order to protect their herds.  With their natural predator gone, the Others easily moved south with no one having the knowledge to stop them in their way, especially as the Long Winter gave them their needed environment.
  7. George is, at heart, a hippie who believes humanity's disturbance of a natural order will lead to destruction.  The Wildlings disturbed the natural order, and the Others are coming to bring destruction because of it.

So, in the end, I believe the Others will breach the Wall and bring massive destruction to much of the northern half of Westoros only to be defeated (not destroyed) by a pack of direwolves, probably led by Nymeria.  Perhaps the wolves will be joined by Dany's dragons who will wipe out the Wights as well.  As before, the Others will have to choose peace in order to survive.  And, yes, many of the direwolves will die in the final confrontation as well.

So, like I said, this is my pet theory.  I'm perfectly OK with it being shot down if need be so I can try to think of another one.

Oh, and glad to finally post for the first time!

The dire wolves are Stark symbol, mayhems they are just there to represent the Starks. You might be reading too much into this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Shaggingdog said:

Because their natural predators have been diminished.  And those natural predators?  Not the dragons, but rather the direwolves. 

It's said in the books that direwolves actually exist in the north. Their numbers may have diminished in the southern areas where Winterfell is, but direwolf packs still roam in the north according to wildlings. If direwolves are predators of the Others as you say, then they would still be able to keep the WW in check in the northern regions. Dragons, on the other hand, are extinct, until Dany brings forth her three. 

12 hours ago, Shaggingdog said:

Just as the Others are immune to the normal weapons of humanity (notwithstanding weapons of dragon glass and Valyrian steel) so I believe the direwolves are immune to the ice weapons of the Others and are thus their natural predators.

The direwolves are wolves, except that they are a lot larger, somewhat smarter, and have warging capabilities. The direwolves are still warm-blooded creatures. The Others are these mystical type of creatures who are said to hate all things warm. They want to eliminate all warm-blooded creatures, so direwolves would be included in this group. I think there are direwolf wights mentioned in the story (but I'm not sure). 

12 hours ago, Shaggingdog said:

Other fantastic creatures in the series - dragons, Others, Children, etc. - have great powers, but not so direwolves, at least not as we've been shown.  Surely there is more to them than we've been given.

Well, they are magic giant wolves. And Jon might warg into one to save his life. Ghost will play an important role in the coming books--maybe that's is why it was titled A Time for Wolves? The direwolf first appears in GRRM's urban-fantasy book The Skin Trade. In that story, the direwolves are apex predators, or so they think, until something white and mist-like starts to hunt the predators. 

12 hours ago, Shaggingdog said:

I think the Wildlings wiped out the direwolf population north of the wall in order to protect their herds.  With their natural predator gone, the Others easily moved south with no one having the knowledge to stop them in their way, especially as the Long Winter gave them their needed environment.

The wildlings don't kill direwolves, they would be kind of stupid to do so. I think they mention direwolves seen beyond the Wall. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Shaggingdog said:

snip

Welcome Shagging,

One question:

Even if the dire wolves are the bane of the Others, how will they fare against tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of undead?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just going to be frank.  There is nothing supporting this theory in the books, and it would be pretty lame.  Sorry but that's just the truth.  Regular wolves can be warged just as Direwolves can, and they existed on earth, they were real animals, nothing magical about them.

In terms of actually disproving the theory, obviously I can't do that.  However I can point out that the WW's have come around before, and we have no reason to believe that the Direwolf population was particularly low at that time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with the idea is that literally nothing indicates that the Others fear or care about direwolves. We do know they can make dead animals into wights, too, so animals in general shouldn't be a problem for them.

In addition, while there are no longer any direwolves in the Seven Kingdoms there are still direwolves beyond the Wall, and not so few. They are much more numerous than, say, mammoths.

Vice versa, dragons are also not the antithesis of the Others or their enemies. Dragons shouldn't care about the Others at all - just as the Others likely don't give a damn about the Others.

The problem is when men use dragons as a weapon against the Others. That likely something the Others don't like. After all, the Others are a sentient species who can think, talk, and plan. The dragons are just animals. Powerful and magical animals, yes, but just animals. Wild dragons should be no match for the Others. They will just surround them with cold, cripple them with snowstorms, and send in hundreds of wights to rip them to pieces.

That is, if they care about them at all. Why on earth should the Others care about wild dragons in the first place?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get ready for it to happen.  (In about 14 years).      Because you've got that nymeria wolf pack hanging around, waiting for the plot to catch up to them.   The others don't fear wolves because they haven't been taught to yet.   This bunch works for the gods.  It's already being trained for viciousness against the upright walking community.  That's different from the packs up north.  And there's the potential for them to be very specifically sicced on the dead, hunting them with warg- provided strategy that ties in with concerted human efforts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to the forum @Shaggingdog!

Considering we don't know much about the White Walkers from the books, it's kind of hard to provide evidence supporting or denying the theory at this point, but I will say this: it's always been my understanding that the purpose of the Direwolves in these books is to represent the Starks, specifically the individual Stark children. We can find evidence in the name of each Direwolf:

 

Lady: represents Sansa's naive opinions on knights and a pretty marriage between king and queen, etc. When Lady dies, it is the beginning of Sansas journey whereby she learns how naive that viewpoint is.
Nymeria: named after a wild female warrior, representing Arya's wild nature and her hesitance to simply due her duty and become a wife/mother.
Summer: Bran is called a "sweet summer child" by Old Nan, meaning that he is a young naive boy. Brans storyline is pretty dark and he has to mature pretty quick. I believe Summer will die in the next book, thereby symbolically showing that Summer is over and Winter is here.
Ghost: represents Jon feeling invisible all his life, both being overlook as a bastard and physically having to hide from guests during feasts so as not to offend anyone. Ghosts name could also be seen as referencing Jon's death, and possible resurrecting (we learn that Beric feels like he loses a bit of himself every time he comes back, perhaps Jon will be a ghost of who he was). 
Grey Wind: there are a few explanations for this one, but the simplest one is that the name represents Robbs memory: now just a shadow. It also represents that he had to make a lot of "grey" decisions, as opposed to simple black and white ones. Someone else can jump in to explain this one better I'm sure.
Shaggydog: in literary terms, a shaggydog story refers to a storyline that is inherently unimportant. This is what we kind of see in the books: Rickon is extremely important because his claim to Winterfell is strong if Davos can find him (everyone thinks Bran is dead). However, he has had zero influence in the plot so far outside of his bloodline, and being so young it is unlikely that he can influence the plot going forward.

There are a few different variations on the above (each could be it's own article) but basically the Direwolves have seemed to be a literary device to represent each Stark, or at least let someone easily identify a Stark. This is relevant for dreams/prophecies as well. 

But as I said, we know so little of the White Walkers and I guess Direwolves themselves as opposed to dragons, so anything is possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×