Identity of Quaithe

[Lady Rhodes]

 

I have been thinking about all the “loose ends” of this story and trying to figure out how these puzzles pieces fit together. In doing this thinking, I have put together a working theory that fits some of these pieces close together in a way that, I think, allows the puzzle of the whole story to start to fit together.

In the Citadel, we know that Marwyn does not garner the respect of the other arch masters due at least in part due to his specialized field (magic). We also have reason to believe that Alleras/Sarella/the Sphinx is more than a student but a particular admirer of Marwyn. Marwyn has traveled extensively (remember that he taught Mirri Maz Duur) and it is plausible that he has acquired artifacts, such as masks of the shadow binders. I believe that Marwyn is Quaithe or has Sarella/Alleras pose as Quaithe and communicates through the glass candles of the Citadel to Daenerys. 

Now, if we accept that Quaithe’s warning are coming from the Citadel, how does this affect the interpretation ofQuaithe’s prophecies? What other questions does this raise?

We would now have Faceless Men at the Citadel(connected to Arya’s storyline), Quaithe (connected to Dany’s) , Euron (iron islands), Sam (the Night’s Watch) and Sarella connected to Dorne. Is it possible that everything will come down to Oldtown?

[Dorian Martell's son]

GRRM does not do convenient loose ends plot wrap ups. Marwyn has access to a glass candle, and we can assume quaithe does to, but that is it.  The "everyone is secretly everyone else" threads are old and tired now that there the author is pushing a decade between book releases   

[Seams]

Hi Lady Rhodes.

This is a thoughtful analysis and might have some good possibilities. Quaithe is very mysterious to me, but her mask makes me think of the red door, and the red door makes me think of the lemon tree, and the lemon tree makes me think of Dorne. So I like the general idea as well as the specifics of your theory.

I don't know if you've read the Dunk & Egg stories, so I don't want to give too much away but I will say this: at the end of the third story, The Mystery Knight, many people turn out to have secret agendas and secret identities and secret missions. I think this is GRRM's way of warning us that there may be many surprise reveals of hidden relationships, spies and fake identities in the main series.

[LynnS]

Sarella is my candidate for Quaithe as well.  Acolytes of the Citadel have to fashion a ring, rod and mask as they progress through each level of their studies. I'm assuming that one mask is fashioned from wood.  A red wooden mask reminds me of the device on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree - a red face.

The difficulty is that shadow-binders from Asshai are known for wearing masks - so that fits with Quaithe coming from those parts as well.

"The sphynx is the riddle, not the riddler."   - Aemon

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

The sun's son. A shiver went through her. "Shadows and whispers." What else had Quaithe said? The pale mare and the sun's son. There was a lion in it too, and a dragon. Or am I the dragon? "Beware the perfumed seneschal." That she remembered. "Dreams and prophecies. Why must they always be in riddles? I hate this. Oh, leave me, ser. Tomorrow is my wedding day."

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII

The pale mare. Daenerys sighed. Quaithe warned me of the pale mare's coming. She told me of the Dornish prince as well, the sun's son. She told me much and more, but all in riddles. "I cannot rely on plague to save me from my enemies. Set Pretty Meris free. At once."

 

[Yaya]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Sarella is my candidate for Quaithe as well

I've not thought a lot on Quaithe ...

hmmm, let's go with Sarella being Quaithe - could Sarella pull off the actual physical meetings with Danearys as Quaithe?  I don't think so somehow ...  could it be 'two' Quaithes? 
 

 

 

 

 

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Yaya said:

I've not thought a lot on Quaithe ...

hmmm, let's go with Sarella being Quaithe - could Sarella pull off the actual physical meetings with Danearys as Quaithe?  I don't think so somehow ...  could it be 'two' Quaithes?

It's a good question.  Could she have been in Qaarth waiting for Dany?  Did Marwyn send her in advance?

  

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 

I have been thinking about all the “loose ends” of this story and trying to figure out how these puzzles pieces fit together. In doing this thinking, I have put together a working theory that fits some of these pieces close together in a way that, I think, allows the puzzle of the whole story to start to fit together.

In the Citadel, we know that Marwyn does not garner the respect of the other arch masters due at least in part due to his specialized field (magic). We also have reason to believe that Alleras/Sarella/the Sphinx is more than a student but a particular admirer of Marwyn. Marwyn has traveled extensively (remember that he taught Mirri Maz Duur) and it is plausible that he has acquired artifacts, such as masks of the shadow binders. I believe that Marwyn is Quaithe or has Sarella/Alleras pose as Quaithe and communicates through the glass candles of the Citadel to Daenerys. 

Now, if we accept that Quaithe’s warning are coming from the Citadel, how does this affect the interpretation ofQuaithe’s prophecies? What other questions does this raise?

We would now have Faceless Men at the Citadel(connected to Arya’s storyline), Quaithe (connected to Dany’s) , Euron (iron islands), Sam (the Night’s Watch) and Sarella connected to Dorne. Is it possible that everything will come down to Oldtown?

So, you are saying that Marwyn was out and about in Qarth, followed Daenerys's bloodrider to Vaes Toloro and back with her to Qarth, and then back to the Citadel, and now he's going to look for her in Slaver's Bay? 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, you are saying that Marwyn was out and about in Qarth, followed Daenerys's bloodrider to Vaes Toloro and back with her to Qarth, and then back to the Citadel, and now he's going to look for her in Slaver's Bay? 

I wouldn’t say that. We don’t know when he was in Essos with Mirri Maz Duur. I think when the dragons were born the glass candles started burning, and perhaps at that point he sent someone to investigate? The other, and in my opinion more plausible possibility, is that she has been a mirage (for lack of a better term) all along. 

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sarella is my candidate for Quaithe as well.  Acolytes of the Citadel have to fashion a ring, rod and mask as they progress through each level of their studies. I'm assuming that one mask is fashioned from wood.  A red wooden mask reminds me of the device on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree - a red face.

The difficulty is that shadow-binders from Asshai are known for wearing masks - so that fits with Quaithe coming from those parts as well.

"The sphynx is the riddle, not the riddler."   - Aemon

 

The masks of the arch maesters is what helped me connect these dots actually!

[LynnS]

Just now, Lady Rhodes said:

The masks of the arch maesters is what helped me connect these dots actually!

I do favor it, but it's a bit thin.  Quaithe is a 'riddler' and the sphinx is the riddle.

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I wouldn’t say that. We don’t know when he was in Essos with Mirri Maz Duur. I think when the dragons were born the glass candles started burning, and perhaps at that point he sent someone to investigate? The other, and in my opinion more plausible possibility, is that she has been a mirage (for lack of a better term) all along. 

 But she is not the only person who has physically seen Quaithe. 

[Makk]

I question Quaiths motivations, but I'm not convinced she has a secret identity. 

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, Makk said:

I question Quaiths motivations, but I'm not convinced she has a secret identity. 

Likewise. I think her true objective is to have Dany distrustful of everyone around her to the point she cripples herself. Qaithe's riddles/visions/prophecies/whatevers contain just enough morsels of truth to accomplish that.

[Lady Rhodes]

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 But she is not the only person who has physically seen Quaithe. 

Do we have evidence that the glass candles can only speak to one person at a time?

[Lollygag]

Most of the major POVs have been secret so-and-so's at some point and there's a long list of confirmed secret identities aside from that. If Quaithe is another character from the books, there should be clues about.

Xaro, Pyat and Quaithe remind me of the 3 Magi Kings who came to visit Jesus. Xaro offers gold. Pyat offers spiritual guidance and this can be linked to Frankincense as it's linked to spirituality. Perhaps what Quaithe offers is akin to myrrh? That myrrh is linked to healing and both the crucifixion and burial of Jesus stand out. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh

Interestingly, both Frankincense and myrrh are tree resins.

[Unacosamedarisa]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sarella is my candidate for Quaithe as well.  Acolytes of the Citadel have to fashion a ring, rod and mask as they progress through each level of their studies. I'm assuming that one mask is fashioned from wood.  A red wooden mask reminds me of the device on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree - a red face.

Got a quote for this? As far as I recall, Acolytes have to forge their chain as they learn, a link for mastering each field of study. The Ring, Rod & Mask are what the Archmaesters have to signify their Arch-ness. I can't remember anything saying that Acolytes have to fashion rings, rods and masks. 

As for Sarella/Alleras being Quaithe, I highly doubt it. Firstly, it's the same problem as the Daario = Euron "theories"... Location. How is this character able to get halfway around the world, and back, in short time, without anyone commenting on their absence? Alleras is studying at the Citadel, and doing very well at that, but then, if this theory is correct, she up and leaves, for months, maybe a whole year, to go wait in Quarth, to be cryptic to Daenerys. Then she goes back to Oldtown, but no one comments on her absence, the Maesters don't kick her out, or question her dedication. If Alleras had been absent like that, wouldn't Pate perhaps have commented on it in his POV prologue? 

Secondly, there's her connection with Marwyn. The way I read Pate's prologue, the acolytes we later see in Sam's last AFfC chapter attending Marwyn, aren't associated with Marwyn at that time. Lazy Leo has the gossip about the Glass Candle, but everyone seems to treat Marwyn with scepticism and disdain, question his trustworthiness. Certainly no one in that prologue mentions to Alleras "hey, didn't Marwyn send you away, somewhere, for 10 months? What's he really like?". I just don't get the impression that Alleras (and the others) have been taken under Marwyn's wing by this point. 

Thirdly, the two characters aren't described as being anything alike. Quaithe has wet, shiny eyes, beneath her mask... Alleras has black eyes. Alleras/Sarella is said to be curious and inquisitive, Quaithe is cryptic and esoteric. There's no feature that they share, that we're told about. 

As for it being Marwyn... How would Marwyn, the Mastiff, with his thick neck, strong jaw, short and squat stature, enormous hands, thick chest, and large ale-belly, appear convincingly, to one and all, to be a woman? Sure, you can say "glamour", but it doesn't seem like other glamours we've been shown. And even if we answer how, there's still the question of why. Also, why would Marwyn leave Dany, to return to Oldtown, only to return to Dany? Why not just stay in Essos? 

There's just no evidence, no text, that can make the connection between Quaithe and Marwyn/Alleras, aside from the mention of the glass candle. But Marwyn isn't the only person to have a glass candle, and Quaithe even mentions plural candles to Dany in ADwD.

[Kandrax]

Quaithe is Quaithe, and Lemora is Lemora.

[Lady Rhodes]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Most of the major POVs have been secret so-and-so's at some point and there's a long list of confirmed secret identities aside from that. If Quaithe is another character from the books, there should be clues about.

Xaro, Pyat and Quaithe remind me of the 3 Magi Kings who came to visit Jesus. Xaro offers gold. Pyat offers spiritual guidance and this can be linked to Frankincense as it's linked to spirituality. Perhaps what Quaithe offers is akin to myrrh? That myrrh is linked to healing and both the crucifixion and burial of Jesus stand out. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh

Interestingly, both Frankincense and myrrh are tree resins.

Very interesting connection. I will have to think of that.

[Megorova]

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. I'm 99% sure about this. And she has met maester Marwyn, when years ago he visited Asshai. Not only maester Marwyn was Mirri Maz Duur's teacher, Quaithe also was one of Mirri's teachers.

I think that prior Robert's Rebellion, maester Marwyn was one of Rhaegar's teachers at King's Landing. That's how he was able to read three pages out book of prophecies, made by Daenys the Dreamer, Targaryen princess, that predicted the Doom of Valyria. The book was probably part of Targaryen private library.

After reading this book, Rhaegar decided that he needs to become a knight. Because the Prince that was promised, from one of written in that book prophecies, is a warrior, and one of three heads of the dragon. Based on this book, Rhaegar first thought that he is the promised Prince, then that the Prince is little Aegon. Because one of signs of the Prince is a comet, and at the time when Aegon was conceived, there was a comet seen above King's Landing. So Rhaegar and maester Aemon mistakenly thought, that that comet was the Red Comet, Bleeding Star from the prophecy. Though they were wrong, and that comet was just a comet, not an omen of the Long Night.

Marwyn was a very talented and respected maester. He had a great potential, and could have had a very succesful career in the Citadel. If not for his visit to Asshai, after which he became "corrupted" by his interest in magic. But prior that, he was the kind of maester, that could have been chosen to become Crown Prince's teacher. And thus he was.

When Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped together, maester Marwyn married them. Marwyn from Welsh means marry. Lyanna's childbirth wasn't sudden. They had months to prepare for it, and to bring a maester to the Tower of Joy. If maester Marwyn was Rhaegar's old teacher, and Rhaegar has trusted him enough, to give him access to information about the prophecy, so probably he would have also trusted him to know about Lyanna, and asked him to marry them, and later asked him to stay with Lyanna, until she will give birth.

Then after both Rhaegar and little Aegon died, Marwyn couldn't understand how could this have happened, if according to the prophecy, one of those two was supposed to become a Messiah, that will save humankind during Second Long Night. So after Robert's Rebellion, Marwyn went to Asshai, which was source of information about first Long Night and Azor Ahai. And there he met Quaithe, that became his teacher in magic, and Mirri Maz Durr, that became his disciple.

Maester Marwyn learned from Quaithe how to light glass candles.

When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Mirri summoned to her both Quaithe and maester Marwyn, to help Dany deliver her baby. Mirri gave to Dany some sort of painkiller, probably opiate-based, and thus Dany had hallucination. What she saw and felt, while she was giving birth to Rhaego, wasn't what was actually happening. Dany saw him as Jorah, but actually it was maester Marwyn. His apparition came to Drogo's tent, thru usage of magic, same as Quaithe came to Dany, while she was on board of Balerion ship, and later in Meereen. He stopped Dany's internal bleeding, then they had stimulated beginning of her labor, and Quaithe helped Dany to deliver her baby:

AGOT, Dany IX:

Quaithe (stars) and Marwyn (seen by Dany as Drogo and Jorah) stopped internal bleeding with something hot

Quote

Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. “Home,” she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

After that Marwyn left

Quote

Ser Jorah’s face was drawn and sorrowful. “Rhaegar was the last dragon,” he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. “The last dragon,” he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone.

Natural labor stimulation

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Viserys stood before her, screaming. “The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned.” The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. “I am the dragon and I will be crowned!” he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

Beginning of labor

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The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

Quaithe, who is Shiera Seastar, urged Dany to push. Dany had what is called back labor.

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Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

Ghost Kings are Dany's Targaryen ancestors. She and Quaithe shares same blood. Thus those ghosts cried as one, because it was one person, that combines in herself blood of all of them - Shiera.

They had silver, gold and platinum white hair, because Shiera had silver-gold hair, and when she aged (she's over 100 years old now), her hair became platinum white. Their eye color was opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. Shiera had one blue eye, and one green. Natural opals are two colored stones, blue and green. "Amethyst occurs in primary hues from a light pinkish violet to a deep purple. Amethyst may exhibit one or both secondary hues, red and blue." Lithium-rich tourmalines could be either blue, or green. Bi-colored crystals are also common. Jade stones are mostly green, but one of it's varieties jadeite could also be blue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Opal-53714.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst#Hue_and_tone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline#Color

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade#Nephrite_and_jadeite

So out of four stones, mentioned in that scene, all of them could be blue or green, and two of them (opals and tourmalines) are bi-colored stones, blue and green simultaneously. So this is an obvious hint to Shiera Seastar, with her blue and green eyes.

Rhaego was born, and saw his mother's face. During that fevered drug induced dream, Dany experienced both, what felt her own body, and what felt her unborn baby. Quaithe used on her some sort of magic, to make a temporary connection between Dany's soul, and soul of her unborn baby, to prevent him from dying.

Quote

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

“…the dragon…”

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After the baby was born, Quaithe for a long time stayed with Dany

Quote

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

This is Quaithe in ADWD:

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She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

“Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?”

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

Shiera's favourite jewellery was silver necklace with star sapphires and star emeralds. And now her favourite acessories is a star mask. Probably made of weirwood tree, and laquered either with red weirwood sap, or with blood, because Shiera practiced blood magic, and bathed in blood, to stay young and beautiful, same as her mother Serenei of Lys.

Melisandre said that The Wall and Asshai are hinges of the world. So near one of those hinges resides Bloodraven, and near the other one is his ex-lover Shiera/Quaithe.

Quaithe is not only Shiera Seastar, she's also the three-eyed crow.

In Bran's vision:

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“I can’t fly,” Bran said. “I can’t, I can’t…”

How do you know! Have you ever tried!

The voice was high and thin.

Female voices are high and thin.

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The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, “He’s awake, he’s awake, he’s awake.”

Shiera in Japanese means dock, or chain of mountains. Quai in French also means dock.

Sierra and quay in English basically mean the same things, it's a water-related manmade structures, or chain of mountains.

Quay - a concrete, stone, or metal platform lying alongside or projecting into water for loading and unloading ships.

Sierra - a long jagged mountain chain.

Ghat (one of translation of shiera and quai) - (in South Asia) a flight of steps leading down to a river, or (in South Asia) a mountain pass.

In Irish mythology there's a crow goddess and phantom queen Morrigan. Mor in Welsh means the sea. Shiera Seastar was shadowbinder. Shadows are phantoms. Morrigan is a foreteller of death, in Irish mythology she is associated with Banshee.

Banshee means woman of the fairy mound.  Her name is connected to the mythologically important tumuli or "mounds" that dot the Irish countryside. A tumulus (plural tumuli) is a mound of earth and stones raised over a grave or graves. Tumuli are also known as barrows, burial mounds or kurgans. Tumuli are often categorised according to their external apparent shape. In this respect, a long barrow is a long tumulus, usually constructed on top of several burials, such as passage graves.

So both translations of words shiera and quaithe, sierra and quay, are still connected to Shiera/Quaithe/3EC, whether it's a water-related structure, or a chain of mountains (Banshee's long barrow; Banshee - Morrigan, crow goddess and phantom queen/shadowbinder; shiera - chain of mountains, Seastar - star of the sea, Mor - the sea).

There's another female character in ASOIAF, that same as Quaithe is also wearing wooden mask, and her name also means sea, and she's also a sorceress - wildlings witch Morna. Her mask is made of weirwood tree.

All of this together is a hint, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she's also the three-eyed crow.

So she is not Alleras/Sarella/the Sphinx.

[Megorova]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

"The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler."   - Aemon

"In Greek mythology, a sphinx is represented as a monster with a head of a woman, the body of a lioness, the wings of an eagle, and a serpent-headed tail.

The Sphinx is said to have guarded the entrance to the Greek city of Thebes, asking a riddle to travellers to allow them passage."

 

So sphinx is a woman. And what is important, is not what she says, but she herself.

Quote

“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

“Quaithe?”

That's the answer to the riddle. Quaithe, the one who told to Dany a coded message about her destination, is the sphinx and thus the riddle. Her real identity (Shiera Seastar) is the truth that Dany will find in Asshai.

And Dany will eventually go to Asshai, because Bran saw this:

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

 

[Faera]

We really don't have any solid evidence to truly have a "hot-lead" for who Quaithe might be as far as I can remember, which leads me to suspect that she might simply be Quaithe of the Shadow. She is an established figure of Qarth and clearly trained in Asshai hence her title. If I had to "assign" a likely person to her then it'd probably be Shiera in order to parallel Bloodraven's influence over Bran but I'm not massively convinced either way.  I'm not adverse to her being someone like Shiera or Ashara or whoever (One of my favourite crackpot ideas is that she's Rhaella!) though I was never all that invested in her being revealed to be someone important as much as I've wondered why she has this invested interest in Daenerys and what the motive is behind it.