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Identity of Quaithe

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So that we can erase any doubt that Quaithe is a corporeal entity...

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Jhogo was gone so long that Dany feared him lost, but finally when they had all but ceased to look for him, he came riding up from the southeast. One of the guards that Aggo had posted saw him first and gave a shout, and Danyrushed to the walls to see for herself. It was true. Jhogo came, yet not alone. Behind him rode three queerly garbed strangers atop ugly humped creatures that dwarfed any horse.

They drew rein before the city gates, and looked up to see Dany on the wall above them. "Blood of my blood," Jhogo called, "I have been to the great city Qarth, and returned with three who would look on you with their own eyes."

Dany stared down at the strangers. "Here I stand. Look, if that is your pleasure . . . but first tell me your names."

The pale man with the blue lips replied in guttural Dothraki, "I am Pyat Pree, the great warlock."

The bald man with the jewels in his nose answered in the Valyrian of the Free Cities, "I am Xaro Xhoan Daxos of the Thirteen, a merchant prince of Qarth."

The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, "I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons."

"Seek no more," Daenerys Targaryen told them. "You have found them."

Daenerys I, Clash 12

Quote

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

"Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?"

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

"She is, and no spawn of shadows may touch her." Jhogo brushed Quaithe's fingers away with the handle of his whip.

The woman took a step backward. "You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all."

Dany's wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. "Where would you have me go?" she asked.

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go toAsshai. "Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"

"Truth," said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.

Rakharo snorted contempt through his drooping black mustachios. "Khaleesi, better a man should swallow scorpions than trust in the spawn of shadows, who dare not show their face beneath the sun. It is known."

"It is known," Aggo agreed.

Xaro Xhoan Daxos had watched the whole exchange from his cushions. When Dany climbed back into the palanquin beside him, he said, "Your savages are wiser than they know. Such truths as the Asshai'i hoard are not like to make you smile." Then he pressed another cup of wine on her, and spoke of love and lust and other trifles all the way back to his manse.

Daenerys III, Clash 40

Jhogo and Xaro boulth acknowledge Quaithe's physical presence. 

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Quaithe is the mother and daughter of Mellisandre.

No but seriously, I'd say Quaithe of Asshai is Quaithe of Asshai and nobody else.

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19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sarella is my candidate for Quaithe as well.  Acolytes of the Citadel have to fashion a ring, rod and mask as they progress through each level of their studies. I'm assuming that one mask is fashioned from wood.  A red wooden mask reminds me of the device on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree - a red face.

The difficulty is that shadow-binders from Asshai are known for wearing masks - so that fits with Quaithe coming from those parts as well.

"The sphynx is the riddle, not the riddler."   - Aemon

 

Sarella is as good a candidate as we've seen given the little bit of info available.  Acolytes earn links in their chain, each link made of different material representing various disciplines.  (iron for warcraft, yellow gold for math and economics, etc.)  The process of earning links is referred to as "forging one's chain" but there hasn't been any evidence that the acolytes have to physically heat and forge each link themselves.  Each discipline has an archmaester presiding over it and they are the ones who earn ring, rod and mask but again there is no reference to the archmaesters having to make them.  The ring, rod and mask symbolize their mastery of the discipline that they preside over.  I doubt if any of the masks are carved from wood, red or otherwise.  Along with the ring and rod that go with them the masks are made of the same metals that are used for the chains common to all maesters. 

Edited by White Ravens

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11 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Quaithe is the mother and daughter of Mellisandre.

No but seriously, I'd say Quaithe of Asshai is Quaithe of Asshai and nobody else.

My bet is that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. And also that her mother, Serenei of Lys (last mistress of Aegon IV), is Larra Rogare (mother of Aegon IV).

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25 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Sarella is as good a candidate as we've seen given the little bit of info available.  Acolytes earn links in their chain, each link made of different material representing various disciplines.  (iron for warcraft, yellow gold for math and economics, etc.)  The process of earning links is referred to as "forging one's chain" but there hasn't been any evidence that the acolytes have to physically heat and forge each link themselves.  Each discipline has an archmaester presiding over it and they are the ones who earn ring, rod and mask but again there is no reference to the archmaesters having to make them.  The ring, rod and mask symbolize their mastery of the discipline that they preside over.  I doubt if any of the masks are carved from wood, red or otherwise.  Along with the ring and rod that go with them the masks are made of the same metals that are used for the chains common to all maesters. 

What is the mask for healing?  For some reason I think it's wood.  Does the ring, rod and mask represent separate levels of a achievement within each discipline? 

Edited by LynnS

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10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:
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Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

"Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?"

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

"She is, and no spawn of shadows may touch her." Jhogo brushed Quaithe's fingers away with the handle of his whip.

The woman took a step backward. "You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all."

Dany's wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. "Where would you have me go?" she asked.

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go toAsshai. "Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"

"Truth," said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.

Rakharo snorted contempt through his drooping black mustachios. "Khaleesi, better a man should swallow scorpions than trust in the spawn of shadows, who dare not show their face beneath the sun. It is known."

"It is known," Aggo agreed.

Xaro Xhoan Daxos had watched the whole exchange from his cushions. When Dany climbed back into the palanquin beside him, he said, "Your savages are wiser than they know. Such truths as the Asshai'i hoard are not like to make you smile." Then he pressed another cup of wine on her, and spoke of love and lust and other trifles all the way back to his manse.

Daenerys III, Clash 40

Just borrowing your quote :)I think the bolded are clues, but to what end, I don't know. Her eyes are wet and shiny when watching the firemage, so she's either happy or sad and she just doesn't seem happy here to me. Is it possible it makes her sad? She puts two fingers on Dany's wrist which reminds me of taking a pulse but I see nothing indicating she's dead. HOTU called her daughter of death, though. Why did Dany's skin tingle from her fingers on her wrist?

Sometimes Quaithe is very blunt and direct. Other times, she speaks in riddles. Why bluntness and at other times riddles? In the passage above, she turns going to Asshai into a riddle, which Dany guesses quickly (or does she?) Why is going to Asshai turned into a riddle?

 

ASOS Daenerys II

Someone was in the cabin with her.

"Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?" Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. "Jorah, is that you?"

"They sleep," a woman said. "They all sleep." The voice was very close. "Even dragons must sleep."

She is standing over me. "Who's there?" Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. "What do you want to me?"

"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. "Khaleesi?" murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask. "Khaleesi, are you unwell?" asked Jhiqui.

"A dream." Dany shook her head. "I dreamed a dream, no more. Go back to sleep. All of us, go back to sleep." Yet try as she might, sleep would not come again.

Even though Dany has said the answer to the riddle is Asshai and Quaithe more or less agreed, she repeats the riddle, but not the answer of Asshai. Seems silly to me to repeat a riddle which has already been answered.

 

ADWD Daenerys II

A soft rustle made her open them again. She sat up with a soft splash. "Missandei?" she called. "Irri? Jhiqui?"

"They sleep," came the answer.

A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. "Quaithe? Am I dreaming?" She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. "I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor."

"You did not dream. Then or now."

"What are you doing here? How did you get past my guards?"

"I came another way. Your guards never saw me."

"If I call out, they will kill you."

"They will swear to you that I am not here."

"Are you here?"

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

"Reznak? Why should I fear him?" Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. "If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?"

Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."

"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—"

"Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are."

"The blood of the dragon." But my dragons are roaring in the darkness. "I remember the Undying. Child of three, they called me. Three mounts they promised me, three fires, and three treasons. One for blood and one for gold and one for …"

"Your Grace?" Missandei stood in the door of the queen's bedchamber, a lantern in her hand. "Who are you talking to?"

Dany glanced back toward the persimmon tree. There was no woman there. No hooded robe, no lacquer mask, no Quaithe.

A shadow. A memory. No one. She was the blood of the dragon, but Ser Barristan had warned her that in that blood there was a taint. Could I be going mad? They had called her father mad, once. "I was praying," she told the Naathi girl. "It will be light soon. I had best eat something, before court."

"I will bring you food to break your fast."

Alone again, Dany went all the way around the pyramid in hopes of finding Quaithe, past the burned trees and scorched earth where her men had tried to capture Drogon. But the only sound was the wind in the fruit trees, and the only creatures in the gardens were a few pale moths.

 

Moonlight shown in her eyes says to me that her eyes might be wet and shiny again indicating strong emotion. She stands under the persimmon tree in a hooded robe. Hooded robes are linked to sacrifice in this series and the most significant thing I can find on persimmons is that they are used to predict the severity of winter in folklore though I suspect there may be more to find. A persimmon is one of the gifts which must be given to see the Pureborn in Qarth. The hooded robe, persimmon tree and lacquered mask are repeated. When Dany goes to look for Quaithe, she finds burned trees, scorched earth, wind in the trees (reminds me of Bran) and pale moths which are linked to death in some cultures. Dany brings up the riddle here, not Quaithe, perhaps beating her to the punch, or maybe something's changed?


 

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What is the mask for healing?  For some reason I think it's wood.  Does the ring, rod and mask represent separate levels of a achievement within each discipline? 

We haven't been told what metals represent every discipline, only some of them.  What we have been told is that each acolyte "forges" a chain by earning links and that each discipline is represented by a different metal.  The rods, rings and masks are made of the same metals that the links in the chain are fashioned from.  Each discipline is presided over by and archmaester and it is he alone who earns the rod, ring and mask which are fashioned of the same material.  For example, we know that acolytes who ace their exams in magic will earn a link for their chain that is made of Valyrian steel.  We are told that Marwyn, as archmaester presiding over the discipline of magic, has earned a rod, ring and mask that are made of the same material.  I doubt that there are any wood links in the maesters chains. 

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27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What is the mask for healing? 

Maester's get a Silver link for studying medicine and healing. I'd assume the Grand Maester of that discipline, if there is one, would have a ring, rod and mask made from silver. 

Quote

"He told me that a maester's collar is made of chain to remind him that he is sworn to serve," Jon said, remembering. "I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft." AGoT, Jon V.

Quote

All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill. ACoK, Prologue.

Quote

"A maester forges his chain in the Citadel of Oldtown. It's a chain because you swear to serve, and it's made of different metals because you serve the realm and the realm has different sorts of people. Every time you learn something you get another link. Black iron is for ravenry, silver for healing, gold for sums and numbers. I don't remember them all." ACoK, Bran IV.

 

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46 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Just borrowing your quote :)I think the bolded are clues, but to what end, I don't know. Her eyes are wet and shiny when watching the firemage, so she's either happy or sad and she just doesn't seem happy here to me. Is it possible it makes her sad? She puts two fingers on Dany's wrist which reminds me of taking a pulse but I see nothing indicating she's dead. HOTU called her daughter of death, though. Why did Dany's skin tingle from her fingers on her wrist?

Sometimes Quaithe is very blunt and direct. Other times, she speaks in riddles. Why bluntness and at other times riddles? In the passage above, she turns going to Asshai into a riddle, which Dany guesses quickly (or does she?) Why is going to Asshai turned into a riddle?

 

ASOS Daenerys II

 

Someone was in the cabin with her.

 

"Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?" Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. "Jorah, is that you?"

 

"They sleep," a woman said. "They all sleep." The voice was very close. "Even dragons must sleep."

 

She is standing over me. "Who's there?" Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. "What do you want to me?"

 

"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

 

"Quaithe?" Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. "Khaleesi?" murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask. "Khaleesi, are you unwell?" asked Jhiqui.

 

"A dream." Dany shook her head. "I dreamed a dream, no more. Go back to sleep. All of us, go back to sleep." Yet try as she might, sleep would not come again.

Even though Dany has said the answer to the riddle is Asshai and Quaithe more or less agreed, she repeats the riddle, but not the answer of Asshai. Seems silly to me to repeat a riddle which has already been answered.

 

ADWD Daenerys II

 

A soft rustle made her open them again. She sat up with a soft splash. "Missandei?" she called. "Irri? Jhiqui?"

 

"They sleep," came the answer.

 

A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. "Quaithe? Am I dreaming?" She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. "I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor."

 

"You did not dream. Then or now."

 

"What are you doing here? How did you get past my guards?"

 

"I came another way. Your guards never saw me."

 

"If I call out, they will kill you."

 

"They will swear to you that I am not here."

 

"Are you here?"

 

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

 

"Reznak? Why should I fear him?" Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. "If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?"

 

Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."

 

"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—"

 

"Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are."

 

"The blood of the dragon." But my dragons are roaring in the darkness. "I remember the Undying. Child of three, they called me. Three mounts they promised me, three fires, and three treasons. One for blood and one for gold and one for …"

 

"Your Grace?" Missandei stood in the door of the queen's bedchamber, a lantern in her hand. "Who are you talking to?"

Dany glanced back toward the persimmon tree. There was no woman there. No hooded robe, no lacquer mask, no Quaithe.

 

A shadow. A memory. No one. She was the blood of the dragon, but Ser Barristan had warned her that in that blood there was a taint. Could I be going mad? They had called her father mad, once. "I was praying," she told the Naathi girl. "It will be light soon. I had best eat something, before court."

 

"I will bring you food to break your fast."

 

Alone again, Dany went all the way around the pyramid in hopes of finding Quaithe, past the burned trees and scorched earth where her men had tried to capture Drogon. But the only sound was the wind in the fruit trees, and the only creatures in the gardens were a few pale moths.

 

 

 

 

 

Moonlight shown in her eyes says to me that her eyes might be wet and shiny again indicating strong emotion. She stands under the persimmon tree in a hooded robe. Hooded robes are linked to sacrifice in this series and the most significant thing I can find on persimmons is that they are used to predict the severity of winter in folklore though I suspect there may be more to find. A persimmon is one of the gifts which must be given to see the Pureborn in Qarth. The hooded robe, persimmon tree and lacquered mask are repeated. When Dany goes to look for Quaithe, she finds burned trees, scorched earth, wind in the trees (reminds me of Bran) and pale moths which are linked to death in some cultures. Dany brings up the riddle here, not Quaithe, perhaps beating her to the punch, or maybe something's changed?

 

 

 


 

As wet as the sea, and as shiny as a star.

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Ah, I stand corrected. I neglected the passage regarding Quaithe physically touching Dany. 

I don't presume to know exactly how the travel has gone, etc. There have been some interesting points for and against added to my initial thoughts. I appreciate the discussion.

I am hesitant to believe the Shiera Seastar route because I don't think that knowledge of the prequel novels should impact this particular story. However, since the TEC is now Bloodraven, perhaps I am wrong.  I am not one to believe a lot of the secret identity theories: Lemore is Lemore, Daario is not Euron.  But I cannot help but think that Quaithe isn't who she appears.

Furthermore, there is something going on in Oldtown.  Many of the side plot points are tied there, and it begs the question why that is.

1. We know that there is a Faceless Man in Oldtown. Why are they there? Are they on an assignment or do they have their own agenda?

2. We know Sam is in Oldtown for the Night's Watch to become their new Maester and garner information on the Long Night.

3. We know that Euron is planning on attacking Oldtown. Why? He must have a strong reason, given that he gave the dragon horn to Victarion to get the dragon. There is reason to believe that the horn won't work exactly as he thinks, and it is certainly fair to assume that Euron suspects that as well, but we still have to reason that Euron took the chance that he may be giving away his prized bargaining chip to his brother, and I doubt he would do that unless there was something highly valuable to him in Oldtown.

4. It is strongly implied that Alleras the Sphnix is Sarella Sand. Doran didn't capture her, and in fact, said to "leave her to her...game." What is her game? Is it simply fooling the most learned men of Westeros by being an imposter? Or is there something more going on?

5. We have the glass candles burning.  I am of the belief that when the Red Comet appears and the dragons were born that these candles spontaneously lit, meaning that no one actually lit them.  Considering the skepticism that the acolytes discuss these burning glass candles, and the warnings that Marwyn gives Sam before he leaves, it certainly sounds like this is something that the Maesters are trying to keep quiet.

All of these things I recognized individually as small parts, but until truly sitting down to think about it, there are a lot of these small subplots converging on Oldtown.  When I discuss converging plot lines, I normally am thinking of the Meerenese knot. But there are quite a few plot lines converging here as well, and I think it would be erroneous to assume that GRRM is bringing these people together without them interacting some.

I still think Quaithe is connected to the Citadel and Marwyn in some way, and I don't put it past her communicating from a distance. How much time has passed between Qaarth and Sam's arrival in Oldtown?

 

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Just borrowing your quote :)I think the bolded are clues, but to what end, I don't know. Her eyes are wet and shiny when watching the firemage, so she's either happy or sad and she just doesn't seem happy here to me. Is it possible it makes her sad?

It doesn't actually matter, what her emotions are. Her eyes are wet and shiny. Liquid in eyes is salty, same as other bodily fluids, such as tears or blood. You know what liquid is also salty? - Sea water. And what else is shiny? - Stars. So Quaithe's eyes is a hint to Seastar. Same as moonlight shining in her eyes, when Dany saw her in Meereen.

Dothraki believe that the moon is a goddess, and wife of the sun. Shiera was using moonstone brooch, to make a shadow mask of Maynard Plumm for Bloodraven in The Mystery Knight, same as Melisandre used ruby bracelet, to make a shadow of Rattleshirt for Mance.

When Jon had a wolf-dream, Shiera was watching over him, and he run from her towards Bloodraven's cave:

Quote

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air.

Another connection between Jon and moon-Shiera:

Quote

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.

“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it. “Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.”

Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall.

Shiera is moon, and Bloodraven is her sun. But their time to shine has passed, and thus there will be new moon and sun. According to Dothraki prophecy "One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return". So the new sun and moon, man and wife, are going to be Jon and Dany. 

Also persimone timber is ebony. And other times, when ebony was mentioned in Essos, it was alongside weirwood, in the House of the Undying (black-barked trees with blue leaves), and in the House of Black and White (black and white chairs and doors). 

So it's a hint that this time, there's also ebony - persimone, and weirwood - Quaithe's mask.

Naturally weirwood is white, but Quaithe's mask is laquered in red color. So maybe it's painted either with red weirwood sap, or with blood. Because Shiera was user of bloodmagic.

And there was another weirwood-related person, that kissed Jon:

Quote

The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on.

Mor in Wealsh means the sea, so there's 4 connections between Morna and Quaithe:

  1. their names are sea-based - Morna and Seastar;
  2. both of them are wearing wooden masks;
  3. both of them kissed Jon;
  4. both of them are users of magic.

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Shiera. Seems to be pushing Dany towards a mentality that will suit a match with Euron, and so probably is on the other side pushing Euron to Dany. It is a question of if she is doing so because she believes that is how to save the world, or because she's still the old mischeivous Shiera that took pleasure in testing limits and seeking knowledge, and is just looking to entertain/honour herself.

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21 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Likewise. I think her true objective is to have Dany distrustful of everyone around her to the point she cripples herself. Qaithe's riddles/visions/prophecies/whatevers contain just enough morsels of truth to accomplish that.

I couldn't agree more.  Okay, Dany does not employ Quaithe like say the Crown has employed Varys, but in Varys' own words or more or less "you got to give them something even if not the entire truth, just some of it... enough for them to believe in your worth."  Apart from probably Euron and even above Mel, if I were a character in the series, this one would be the one I would be lest comfortable in her presence lol  She really gives me the chills, I guess that is meant by the author lol  yes some truths but some a little simple like the lion, the cracken etc, well any book on sigils would tell you whose houses those are lol.  Quaithe is a bit "overqualified" for that simple description.  Yes, I do not believe that she has Dany's interest at heart for once.  I think this ultimately links with the dragons of course, now whether her aim is for them to be destroyed or brought to great glory for whatever reason not so sure but more inclined to think they want them destroyed (even if in the end this turns out to be the only viable way forward).  I find the fight between ice and fire and their religions etc very much like Celtic mythology Sheelie and Unseelie (Courts of Winter and Summer) and I cannot see either prevailing over the other as this upsets the balance...  Yet maybe dragons need to go for WWs to go back to sleep behind the Wall or something but the fire faction is not one I would trust per se...

I certainly think we are going to see activity around Oldtown in the books to come.  Euron has a connection too lol and well, although when I first came across Marwin I liked him (I guess I do like people who research innovative and sometimes unpopular or forbidden stuff) I had at the time forgotten the connection with Mirri and hey, this almost sounds as if I would cast down anyone who didn't finish colleague lol but I reckon there were good reasons to take the chain from Qyburn.  I just hope Sam can see through them and warn someone in time!

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I’m of an opinion that Quaithe is just giving prophecies to Dany to make her isolated and see enemies where there aren’t any. And really just making it into a self fulfilled prophecies like Cersei. 

Don’t think she is a particular person, if I had to guess it would Sheira but she won’t reveal herself or anything 

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So it's a Scooby Doo episode.  (where the perp's quaithe mask is removed by Sam at the end to reveal, "It's the museum curator, Lord Hightower!  and his female assistant who was mentioned once as being sequestered with him up in the tower ! ......remember?!")

Quaithe is as useless as I am!     A riddler only.    And there's no reason to go all the way to Asshigh to track Quaithe down.....unless Dany's going to spank Quaithe's physical butt.  That'z why you go to AssHigh.  For that richly rewarding payoff, like a wrestlemania crowd cheering moment.  But what would that do for the plot?   I think the Go East to Go West bizness boils down to, "just don't give up, Daenerys!   The readers really want you to get it done!   These books are so long, and you need to justify all those pages!"   

I swear this Sheira Seastar person's existence is a hoax perpetrated by board members who then back each other up on it with a wink and a nod.   Do you remember reading about her in the books?  Of course not, she's an internet-only phenomenon!    Outrageous.  The nerve of some people!

Quote

There's another female character in ASOIAF, that same as Quaithe is also wearing wooden mask, and her name also means sea, and she's also a sorceress - wildlings witch Morna. Her mask is made of weirwood tree.

    Well, shit.  I nominate this person, then!  (This quote was my favorite part of that long post about it being Sheira...... when right at the end you introduced us to a much more straightforward witch candidate who lives a lot closer to Bloodraven.   Landstar!

 

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

"In Greek mythology, a sphinx is represented as a monster with a head of a woman, the body of a lioness, the wings of an eagle, and a serpent-headed tail.

 

Is that a "classy" look?     The big egyptian Sphinx looks sophisticated, posh even, but when you imagine a lifesized sphinx trying to make itself comfortable as a house guest....

 

That "Matchmaker Seastar" idea was interesting, Mr. Daw.   I was feeling like some sort of witchy devil was working fate to get Euron that fantasy dragon bride, but i always assumed that witch was Euron.   Or some corrupted- by- evening- shade source whispering in his ear, meaning that our unburnt heroine would do well to steer clear of the hookup.   

But... what if their union is the yellow brick road (best path) set in place by the glass candle community?!   Should we ship them for reals??   Is it possible Euron and the ironborn are being tasked with the Bloodraven/Seastar agenda of bringing forceful change to the Citadel's non- magic ways?    (Which Dany may also want, cuz Maesters are her family's real enemy in some ways).

Marwyn rushed in to "help", whatever that means....  While Quaithe is defined by being in no hurry to jump in to things.  So i doubt Quaithe is the Sarella / Marwyn combo.   Though for a moment it was nice to view Sarella as having a purpose.   But i fear she's more Darkstar than Seastar.

And if the two lovers, Raven & Seastar, have separately chosen to live on distant ice and fire magic poles of the world, does that mean they made a sacrificial bid to stave off the armageddon by doing their damnedest to keep the elements apart?    Or do they want to dance in the chill fire of apocalypse by bringing the elements together?   (Forbidden love!   Ice Ice Babies.) 

They want Dany and the Starks to carefully navigate something , dammit!  Some kind of gauntlet needs to be completed by Jon & DayNair- issss.  Not quite the way Thanos is completing his infinity guantlet, one hopes.   But we can see forces pushing the key players into position to......... do something.   Salt & smoke, beeotches.  Yup.  That's a good synopsis of where things stand.   Now let's sit.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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On 4/22/2018 at 1:27 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

 

I have been thinking about all the “loose ends” of this story and trying to figure out how these puzzles pieces fit together. In doing this thinking, I have put together a working theory that fits some of these pieces close together in a way that, I think, allows the puzzle of the whole story to start to fit together.

In the Citadel, we know that Marwyn does not garner the respect of the other arch masters due at least in part due to his specialized field (magic). We also have reason to believe that Alleras/Sarella/the Sphinx is more than a student but a particular admirer of Marwyn. Marwyn has traveled extensively (remember that he taught Mirri Maz Duur) and it is plausible that he has acquired artifacts, such as masks of the shadow binders. I believe that Marwyn is Quaithe or has Sarella/Alleras pose as Quaithe and communicates through the glass candles of the Citadel to Daenerys. 

Now, if we accept that Quaithe’s warning are coming from the Citadel, how does this affect the interpretation ofQuaithe’s prophecies? What other questions does this raise?

We would now have Faceless Men at the Citadel(connected to Arya’s storyline), Quaithe (connected to Dany’s) , Euron (iron islands), Sam (the Night’s Watch) and Sarella connected to Dorne. Is it possible that everything will come down to Oldtown?

Quaithe doesn't have to have a secret identity.  A better bet is to say she's a Shadowbinder who wants to sway Dany to her cause.  She's Mellissandre's equivalent in the Dany storyline.  They're both looking for a savior they can use.  Her mask is not to hide a secret identity.  She's from Asshai and it's not unusual to wear masks.  Alleras has no need to hide her face from Dany because they have never met.  

If it were that easy to send a message via candle there is no further reason for Marwyn to hot-foot it to Meereen.  He'd just send a candlegram to Dany.

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Maybe Quaithe is Shiera. I don’t know. But Shiera is only mentioned once in ASOIAF proper by Barristan in ADWD and then only passingly and unmemorably. I’m on the fence as to how much weight material outside ASOIAF proper will have in future books as most people are casual readers who haven’t and won’t read these.

If I didn't hang out on the forums and it was revealed that Quaithe was Shiera, my reaction would be ????

 

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

It doesn't actually matter, what her emotions are.

The series has POVs instead of chapters. I can't disagree more that the character emotions, motivations, etc are unimportant. For all of the hype about the game and the fantasy elements, it's really the characters which make the series rich.

Quaithe's strong feelings about seeing firemages gaining power says something about her motivations depending on how those strong feelings go. Again, my impression is that she's not really happy here.

As for the rest of your post, you're dancing in and out of material outside of the main series which I only pay attention to very sporadically. I'm just not following. :dunno:

Edited by Lollygag

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11 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

So it's a Scooby Doo episode.  (where the perp's quaithe mask is removed by Sam at the end to reveal, "It's the museum curator, Lord Hightower!  and his female assistant who was mentioned once as being sequestered with him up in the tower ! ......remember?!")

Quaithe is as useless as I am!     A riddler only.    And there's no reason to go all the way to Asshigh to track Quaithe down.....unless Dany's going to spank Quaithe's physical butt.  That'z why you go to AssHigh.  For that richly rewarding payoff, like a wrestlemania crowd cheering moment.  But what would that do for the plot?   I think the Go East to Go West bizness boils down to, "just don't give up, Daenerys!   The readers really want you to get it done!   These books are so long, and you need to justify all those pages!"   

I swear this Sheira Seastar person's existence is a hoax perpetrated by board members who then back each other up on it with a wink and a nod.   Do you remember reading about her in the books?  Of course not, she's an internet-only phenomenon!    Outrageous.  The nerve of some people!

    Well, shit.  I nominate this person, then!  (This quote was my favorite part of that long post about it being Sheira...... when right at the end you introduced us to a much more straightforward witch candidate who lives a lot closer to Bloodraven.   Landstar!

 

Is that a "classy" look?     The big egyptian Sphinx looks sophisticated, posh even, but when you imagine a lifesized sphinx trying to make itself comfortable as a house guest....

 

That "Matchmaker Seastar" idea was interesting, Mr. Daw.   I was feeling like some sort of witchy devil was working fate to get Euron that fantasy dragon bride, but i always assumed that witch was Euron.   Or some corrupted- by- evening- shade source whispering in his ear, meaning that our unburnt heroine would do well to steer clear of the hookup.   

But... what if their union is the yellow brick road (best path) set in place by the glass candle community?!   Should we ship them for reals??   Is it possible Euron and the ironborn are being tasked with the Bloodraven/Seastar agenda of bringing forceful change to the Citadel's non- magic ways?    (Which Dany may also want, cuz Maesters are her family's real enemy in some ways).

Marwyn rushed in to "help", whatever that means....  While Quaithe is defined by being in no hurry to jump in to things.  So i doubt Quaithe is the Sarella / Marwyn combo.   Though for a moment it was nice to view Sarella as having a purpose.   But i fear she's more Darkstar than Seastar.

And if the two lovers, Raven & Seastar, have separately chosen to live on distant ice and fire magic poles of the world, does that mean they made a sacrificial bid to stave off the armageddon by doing their damnedest to keep the elements apart?    Or do they want to dance in the chill fire of apocalypse by bringing the elements together?   (Forbidden love!   Ice Ice Babies.) 

They want Dany and the Starks to carefully navigate something , dammit!  Some kind of gauntlet needs to be completed by Jon & DayNair- issss.  Not quite the way Thanos is completing his infinity guantlet, one hopes.   But we can see forces pushing the key players into position to......... do something.   Salt & smoke, beeotches.  Yup.  That's a good synopsis of where things stand.   Now let's sit.

LOL!

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12 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Is that a "classy" look?     The big egyptian Sphinx looks sophisticated, posh even, but when you imagine a lifesized sphinx trying to make itself comfortable as a house guest....

Greek sphinxs are females, and Egyptian are males. The one that was a riddler was in Greece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx#The_Riddle_of_the_Sphinx

Actual sphinx was about the same size as a lion, not as big as that statue in Egypt.

12 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

I swear this Sheira Seastar person's existence is a hoax perpetrated by board members who then back each other up on it with a wink and a nod.   Do you remember reading about her in the books?  Of course not, she's an internet-only phenomenon!    Outrageous.  The nerve of some people!

Actually she was in the books.

Mentioned in The Mystery Knight by Egg, that she is Bloodraven's paramour, that she dances with demons, i.e. she's a shadowbinder, and that she bathes in blood, she's user of bloodmagic, and in ADWD Bloodraven mentioned the woman that he loved, and from the World Book it is known, that the only woman, that he ever loved, was his half-sister Shiera Seastar.

By the way, prior ADWD Bloodraven also was known only from sources outside of ASOIAF books, such as Dunk&Egg novels, and the World Book. So Shiera is not an internet-only phenomenon. She's the main reason why there was a confrontation between Bloodraven and Bittersteel, even years prior First Blackfyre Rebellion.

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Maybe Quaithe is Shiera. I don’t know. But Shiera is only mentioned once in ASOIAF proper by Barristan in ADWD and then only passingly and unmemorably. I’m on the fence as to how much weight material outside ASOIAF proper will have in future books as most people are casual readers who haven’t and won’t read these.

 

If I didn't hang out on the forums and it was revealed that Quaithe was Shiera, my reaction would be ????

What was your reaction, when in ADWD it was revealed, that the reason why Bran had to go beyond The Wall, is to meet with Bloodraven, and to become his replacement, even though prior that, Brynden Rivers was only once mentioned in ASOIAF books, specifically in AFFC?

This is the only information known about him from ASOIAF books, prior Bran met him in that cave, AFFC, Sam II:

Quote

“When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander.

Bloodraven?” said Dareon. “I know a song about him. ‘A Thousand Eyes, and One,’ it’s called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago.”

“We all did. Once I was as young as you.”

Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven, lived 100 years ago, was released from the dungeons by Aegon V, escorted maester Aemon to The Wall, on board of Golden Dragon ship, later was chosen Lord Commander of Night's Watch.

All the rest known about him, is information from other sources, such as Dunk&Egg novels, and the World of Ice & Fire. That he was bastard son of Aegon IV, that he was lover of sorceress Shiera Seastar, and that their half-brother and another Great Bastard, Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, founder of Golden Company, was also in love with her, what happened at Redgrass Field, how Bloodraven lost his eye, that he served as NW's LC for 13 years, and then disappeared beyond The Wall. All of it was written only in TWOIAF and briefly mentioned in D&E novels. 

It's not like you actually have to read those books, to get access to that information. All of it is also available thru ASOIAF-wikia here.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shiera_Seastar

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegor_Rivers

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:
16 hours ago, Megorova said:

It doesn't actually matter, what her emotions are.

The series has POVs instead of chapters. I can't disagree more that the character emotions, motivations, etc are unimportant. For all of the hype about the game and the fantasy elements, it's really the characters which make the series rich.

Quaithe's emotions are not relevant for that scene, in a sense that Dany doesn't know what Quaithe feels, so readers know only what Dany knows, and that is based solely on what she sees of Quaithe. She saw her wet and shiny eyes, and that's all.

Edited by Megorova

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