Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Lady Rhodes

Identity of Quaithe

Recommended Posts

17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You might think it's cool. But I don't know the backstory beyond a rough idea nor do I care. It would need to be introduced into TWOW for me to care. I need to be sold and the "huh?" casual reader would need some fill-in too. That Quaithe and the tree dude did some incest banging back in the day, ugh...:huh: It brings the story down for me and detracts from Dany's and Bran's arcs. I think the opinions in the Fire and Blood thread show me not to be the only one on this.

Set-dressing is a conscious decision. Blue was chosen over yellow, red, plaid, purple with pink polka dots or no curtains at all. And any subconscious decisions which come up were retained in the editing process. Which makes them conscious decisions.

I paint. The canvas and page both start out completely white, nothing. Any paint put down stays there because I looked at it carefully, very carefully, and decided it should stay.

Painting and writing have some things in common, but they are not exactly the same.

Not taking something out doesn't mean it's a big deal in the story. "Blue was chosen because I like blue", is sometimes the only reason. Not everything can be a clue. An author would go crazy trying to write that way, especially in books as long as these.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Speaking as an author it is not true that each word is a conscious decision. Many are very conscious and deliberate, but many are also automatic and/or just for set-dressing. Remember, sometimes the curtains are just blue. Points if you get the reference.

 

Thank you! I wish I could like your post just for that. The fandom has taken those things to ridiculous levels. Sadly i don't get the reference, but in my defense I'm quite sleep deprived and will go to bed after this message.
 

Quote

Well of course she's Quaithe now. The question is who was she before, silly!  Melisandre was Melony before she was bought by the R'hllorists (if in fact it was her own sale she was remembering). Hmm. Maybe we need to look for missing female characters whose names begin with Q...

Silly me! Character with Q....

OMG, she was Quinn Morgendorffer from Daria???? :o
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Painting and writing have some things in common, but they are not exactly the same.

Not taking something out doesn't mean it's a big deal in the story. "Blue was chosen because I like blue", is sometimes the only reason. Not everything can be a clue. An author would go crazy trying to write that way, especially in books as long as these.

 

And not all writers write the same way as not all painters paint exactly the same way. Gardeners, architects, all that. But yes, conscious decision. "Blue was chosen because I like blue" is still a conscious choice. Just not a very interesting one.

I'm not putting forth every word being a conscious decision means it's also a big clue to something. Sometimes it just sets a tone. But that is also deliberate. But clues are used more so in this series with this writer than with others. When a detail is a distraction, an out-of-nowhere choice, it's meant to stand out. Shiny wet eyes stands out. I don't think we're supposed to wonder if it's allergy season in Qarth, we're supposed to wonder that Quaithe is emotional about...something. Likewise, a persimmon tree is a weird choice. Digging into persimmons, they're used in folklore to predict the severity of winter. And we happen to have a very severe winter on the way. This tells us something of Quaithe's thoughts and motivations (and maybe also the Pureborn's). It also tells us something about how much thought goes into these books and why they take so long to write.

Basically, I see people say to the effect of "well maybe Quaithe has allergies or maybe a bug flew into her eyes and that's why her eyes are watery." They forget that books aren't like the chance occurrences one comes across in life. The author decided to put that detail in there and it wasn't to wonder about Quaithe's allergies when it's clear the author wants us to think about more important and more interesting things. That's where I'm coming from with the conscious decision thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Orphalesion said:

Thank you! I wish I could like your post just for that. The fandom has taken those things to ridiculous levels. Sadly i don't get the reference, but in my defense I'm quite sleep deprived and will go to bed after this message.
 

Silly me! Character with Q....

OMG, she was Quinn Morgendorffer from Daria???? :o
 

There's remarkable consistency with the use of symbols in the series and it's well-documented throughout the forum. If you want to read more at a story-level, I have no problem with that as I often prefer to read somethings that way as well. I don't insult you or look down on you for it. But I don't appreciate you insulting other posters for their choice to read in a different way than yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe the Quaithe = Rhaella theory was something Lady Gwyn of Radio Westeros fame came up with a few years back. Not that I think it is true, but she deserves credit for a well thought out theory, complete with Marwyn as the last Targaryen maester of Dragonstone before Stannis's arrival. I lean to Quaithe just being Quaithe. Dany's Merlin if you will.

I think others have shown the problems with the Quaithe = Sarella/Alleras or Marwyn theories. Quaithe as Sheira Seastar is another old one, and it has some interesting possibilities. Just too little evidence for my way of thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Well of course she's Quaithe now. The question is who was she before, silly!  Melisandre was Melony before she was bought by the R'hllorists (if in fact it was her own sale she was remembering). Hmm. Maybe we need to look for missing female characters whose names begin with Q...

:lol:  I always love your posts, TMoTO.  :cheers:

 

As for the rest of the thread...

Quaithe is Sarella only if Sarella has been borrowing LF's or Varys' jetpack. You cannot leave the Citadel to travel to the Red Waste/Qarth and back, missing all your classes for weeks at a time, and not have it be an issue with your professors. Marwyn's influence isn't great enough to get you a month or more of get-out-of-class-and-homework-free cards.

The reaction to a Quaithe as Sheira reveal if we had no internet would be... "Huh?" up until she meets up with Bloodraven. Then it would be "Cool!"

Speaking as an author it is not true that each word is a conscious decision. Many are very conscious and deliberate, but many are also automatic and/or just for set-dressing. Remember, sometimes the curtains are just blue. Points if you get the reference.

If we're connecting "wet and shiny" with the sea and stars, we are also connecting Ashara Dayne, who was last seen (supposedly) jumping into the sea, and whose house sigil is a shooting/falling star. Ran has said that Ashara is Quaithe, though he may well have been joking.

Keep in mind that all of the really important mysteries in the series can be solved using clues from AGOT. That may have no bearing on Quaithe's identity, because her identity may just not be remotely important.

@Widowmaker 811  shadowbinders routinely wear masks. It's part of their thing. It may be that Mel doesn't because she's glamoured. IIRC the reason for the masks is to hide their identities from gods and demons in Asshai. 

@The Mother of the Others..."Oh no you didn't, now it's personal."  I would totally read that version!

I'm fine with Quaithe being Ashara, or Sheira, or the glamoured twin sister of the Ghost of High Heart. But some of the arguments being used in this thread are flat-out wrong.

1) the jetpack thing is hilarious.

2) Yes, certainly in writing a blue curtain is just a blue curtain. But the author and their editors have made the conscious decision to keep that detail in there, be it to further convey and enhance the imagery of the scene or for a deeper purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And not all writers write the same way as not all painters paint exactly the same way. Gardeners, architects, all that. But yes, conscious decision. "Blue was chosen because I like blue" is still a conscious choice. Just not a very interesting one.

I'm not putting forth every word being a conscious decision means it's also a big clue to something. Sometimes it just sets a tone. But that is also deliberate. But clues are used more so in this series with this writer than with others. When a detail is a distraction, an out-of-nowhere choice, it's meant to stand out. Shiny wet eyes stands out. I don't think we're supposed to wonder if it's allergy season in Qarth, we're supposed to wonder that Quaithe is emotional about...something. Likewise, a persimmon tree is a weird choice. Digging into persimmons, they're used in folklore to predict the severity of winter. And we happen to have a very severe winter on the way. This tells us something of Quaithe's thoughts and motivations (and maybe also the Pureborn's). It also tells us something about how much thought goes into these books and why they take so long to write.

Basically, I see people say to the effect of "well maybe Quaithe has allergies or maybe a bug flew into her eyes and that's why her eyes are watery." They forget that books aren't like the chance occurrences one comes across in life. The author decided to put that detail in there and it wasn't to wonder about Quaithe's allergies when it's clear the author wants us to think about more important and more interesting things. That's where I'm coming from with the conscious decision thing.

YES!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There's remarkable consistency with the use of symbols in the series and it's well-documented throughout the forum. If you want to read more at a story-level, I have no problem with that as I often prefer to read somethings that way as well. I don't insult you or look down on you for it. But I don't appreciate you insulting other posters for their choice to read in a different way than yourself.

I noticed you feel attacked quite easily and seem to think in absolutes.

I'm not talking about people who quote passages complete passages for clarity (to follow up on the other post that upset you so much) or notice some symbols that are definitely there.
I'm talking about the more far-out cases that really quote whole chapters or who insist that every single thing in there series is a symbol (Sansa did something at the hur of the Bat -> it's because of her Whent heritage!!!11!!!!, some random black alley cat was described as a black bastard ->It's warged by Bloodraven!!!!!) Look up the Old Varys is a Merman crackpot to understand the levels I'm talking about.

But if you choose to feel attacked, despite it not being my intention, there's not really anything I can do about it. I would like to say that I'm sorry, but I am not, so that would be lying.

 

Edited by Orphalesion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I noticed you feel attacked quite easily and seem to think in absolutes.

I'm not talking about people who quote passages complete passages for clarity (to follow up on the other post that upset you so much) or notice some symbols that are definitely there.
I'm talking about the more far-out cases that really quote whole chapters or who insist that every single thing in there series is a symbol (Sansa did something at the hur of the Bat -> it's because of her Whent heritage!!!11!!!!, some random black alley cat was described as a black bastard ->It's warged by Bloodraven!!!!!) Look up the Old Varys is a Merman crackpot to understand the levels I'm talking about.

But if you want to feel attacked there's not really anything I can do about it. I would like to say that I'm sorry, but regrettably I am not, so that would be lying.

 

Bloodravem was wargin' that old tom. It is known. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Bloodravem was wargin' that old tom. It is known. 

Nah :P He was too busy warging Edmure, Daario and a random pheasant at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Nah :P He was too busy warging Edmure, Daario and a random pheasant at the time.

Pah. Pah, I say. Pah. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Speaking as an author it is not true that each word is a conscious decision. Many are very conscious and deliberate, but many are also automatic and/or just for set-dressing. Remember, sometimes the curtains are just blue. Points if you get the reference.

Some authors are more deliberate than others...

And be careful, sometimes there is a Comey hiding in the curtains...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/james-comey-white-house-curtains-trump-2017-5

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Some authors are more deliberate than others...

And be careful, sometimes there is a Comey is hiding in the curtains...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/james-comey-white-house-curtains-trump-2017-5

WTH??? :lmao:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quaithe is always wearing that darn red lacquered mask when she pays visits to Danny.  Her eyes are the only part of Quaithe's face that Danny can see when they interact.  Danny has no choice but to focus on Quaithe's eyes so it is no surprise that we have descriptions of them.  Of course they are wet and shiny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

I noticed you feel attacked quite easily and seem to think in absolutes.

I'm not talking about people who quote passages complete passages for clarity (to follow up on the other post that upset you so much) or notice some symbols that are definitely there.
I'm talking about the more far-out cases that really quote whole chapters or who insist that every single thing in there series is a symbol (Sansa did something at the hur of the Bat -> it's because of her Whent heritage!!!11!!!!, some random black alley cat was described as a black bastard ->It's warged by Bloodraven!!!!!) Look up the Old Varys is a Merman crackpot to understand the levels I'm talking about.

But if you choose to feel attacked, despite it not being my intention, there's not really anything I can do about it. I would like to say that I'm sorry, but I am not, so that would be lying.

 

I'm not sure if you were spending time in the forum then, but some months ago a lot of people who favor deeper analysis were being constantly barraged with criticism of "overthinking" and other things like that. Quite a few people felt they couldn't post their thoughts without a predictable and very generalized criticism (and sometimes outright attack) which most of the time didn't even address what what the poster actually said. A lot of people got ticked off and my reaction springs from that. I (and I noticed others) don't bother to post some things anymore because I don't feel like dealing with it. More space for "what if" threads I guess.

Because of that, some will take you to mean certain things like the above unless you're more specific about what you're thinking.

Oh - and I'm not sure how else to take " The fandom has taken those things to ridiculous levels" as anything else but as an attack.

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The word 'eyes' appears in the books proper over 2700 times. Only 1 other time besides Quaithe are eyes described as wet and shiny.

AFFC Cersei

A gloomy look passed across the young knight's ravaged face. "A Frey girl, and not of my choosing. She is not even maiden. A widow, of Darry blood. My father says that will help me with the peasants, but the peasants are all dead." He reached for her hand. "It is cruel, Cersei. Your Grace knows that I love—"

"—House Lannister," she finished for him. "No one can doubt that, Lancel. May your wife give you strong sons." Best not let her lord grandfather host the wedding, though. "I know you will do many noble deeds in Darry."

Lancel nodded, plainly miserable. "When it seemed that I might die, my father brought the High Septon to pray for me. He is a good man." Her cousin's eyes were wet and shiny, a child's eyes in an old man's face. "He says the Mother spared me for some holy purpose, so I might atone for my sins."

Cersei wondered how he intended to atone for her. Knighting him was a mistake, and bedding him a bigger one. Lancel was a weak reed, and she liked his newfound piety not at all; he had been much more amusing when he was trying to be Jaime. What has this mewling fool told the High Septon? And what will he tell his little Frey when they lie together in the dark? If he confessed to bedding Cersei, well, she could weather that. Men were always lying about women; she would put it down as the braggadocio of a callow boy smitten by her beauty. If he sings of Robert and the strongwine, though . . . "Atonement is best achieved through prayer," Cersei told him. "Silent prayer." She left him to think about that and girded herself to face the Tyrell host.

 

On the side, shiny eyes turned up with hostility though I'm not sure how this applies to Quaithe, or if it does. Above, Cersei discusses Lancel's newfound piety and we can guess what the High Sparrow is saying to Lancel about Cersei. He loves her here, but that love might be quite mixed with hate at this point. Wet eyes and tearing eyes seems more mixed understandably, but I think GRRM has a strong distrust of tears. Interesting that Quaithe's eyes are wet and shiny in Qarth where shedding tears is a sign of the civilized and they employ assassins who apologize to their victims.

AGOT Jon III

Toad stepped close. "The little lordling has a mouth on him," he said. He had pig eyes, small and shiny. "Is that your mommy's mouth, bastard? What was she, some whore? Tell us her name. Maybe I had her a time or two." He laughed.

AGOT Jon VI

The stewards! For a moment Jon could not believe what he had heard. Mormont must have read it wrong. He started to rise, to open his mouth, to tell them there had been a mistake … and then he saw Ser Alliser studying him, eyes shiny as two flakes of obsidian, and he knew.

ASOS Jon II

"You best not be lying, girl," Rattleshirt said to Ygritte, his eyes shiny behind the giant's skull.

ASOS Tyrion V

"My brother's health requires he remain at Sunspear." The princeling removed his helm. Beneath, his face was lined and saturnine, with thin arched brows above large eyes as black and shiny as pools of coal oil. Only a few streaks of silver marred the lustrous black hair that receded from his brow in a widow's peak as sharply pointed as his nose. A salty Dornishmen for certain. "Prince Doran has sent me to join King Joffrey's council in his stead, as it please His Grace."

ASOS Sansa V (Dontos leading her down the rocks)

"This is the way. It won't be so hard for a strong young girl like you. Hold on tight and never look down and you'll be at the bottom in no time at all." His eyes were shiny. "Your poor Florian is fat and old and drunk, I'm the one should be afraid. I used to fall off my horse, don't you remember? That was how we began. I was drunk and fell off my horse and Joffrey wanted my fool head, but you saved me. You saved me, sweetling."

ASOS Sansa VII

"I don't want her here." Her aunt's eyes were shiny with tears. "Why did you bring her to the Vale, Petyr? This isn't her place. She doesn't belong here."

AGOT Tyrion IV

Kurleket drew his dirk, a vicious piece of black iron. "At your word, m'lady, I'll toss his lying tongue at your feet." His pig eyes were wet with excitement at the prospect.

ASOS Tyrion XI

The eunuch sighed. "The faithful dog is kicked, and no matter how the spider weaves, he is never loved. But if you slay me here, I fear for you, my lord. You may never find your way back to daylight." His eyes glittered in the shifting torchlight, dark and wet. "These tunnels are full of traps for the unwary."

ADWD The Watcher

"Ser Gregor does look lonely," said Tyene, in her sweet septa's voice. "He would like some company, I'm certain."

Ellaria's cheeks were wet with tears, her dark eyes shining. Even weeping, she has a strength in her, the captain thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/26/2018 at 4:37 AM, Lord Lannister said:

I'm a fan of the fantasy genre as well, but oddly enough I think the supernatural elements of this series are often it's weakest points. I enjoy that magic in this series is typically more subtle than not. MMD's certainly had a scary element to them, but isn't magic supposed to be fearful at times? Did she go overboard? Probably so. But I have a hard time assigning blame to her for her actions. She watched everyone and everything she loved get destroyed, was gangraped and then expected to be grateful for being "saved" by Dany. I'm not sure if she poisoned Drogo or not given he tore off the healing poultices, but given Rhaego was supposed to be the Stallion who Mounts the World, and the bringer of what she and her people suffered to all, I can see why she acted against him. She didn't harm Dany(except perhaps for her womb, though I don't consider her hate filled statements exactly reliable) when she had every chance. If she had done the same thing to Tywin, Joffrey, Ramsay or someone like that she's be a heroine, but since Dany was involved she's vilified more than she deserves I think. 

You make good points but I guess, for all that as an wannabe actress or writer lol I may be and my love of playing sorceresses  the gals we get in the series are super bad news.  I understand the reasons for MMD as I may even understand the reasons about Maggie the Frog lol  I think the most dangerous one will be  Quaithe.... she truly gives me the shits lol  I know this is not a proper answer but will do tomorrow, have friends with me lol but just short reply

lol Qaithe and Euron and I wouldn't even  put it past them to be together lol (hope I am wrong)

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/26/2018 at 8:51 AM, Orphalesion said:

Nah :P He was too busy warging Edmure, Daario and a random pheasant at the time.

This is GRRM. None of the pheasants are random. ;)

On 4/26/2018 at 8:38 PM, Lollygag said:

The word 'eyes' appears in the books proper over 2700 times. Only 1 other time besides Quaithe are eyes described as wet and shiny.

AFFC Cersei

Lancel nodded, plainly miserable. "When it seemed that I might die, my father brought the High Septon to pray for me. He is a good man." Her cousin's eyes were wet and shiny, a child's eyes in an old man's face. "He says the Mother spared me for some holy purpose, so I might atone for my sins."

 

That cinches it. Lancel is Quaithe. He must have a jetpack too. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/26/2018 at 9:29 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Some authors are more deliberate than others...

And be careful, sometimes there is a Comey hiding in the curtains...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/james-comey-white-house-curtains-trump-2017-5

:lol:  Well if there is, then Comey is clearly a hidden Blackfyre. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×