The Significant Handshake - France on Citizenship

[The Grey Wolf]

10 hours ago, Errant Bard said:

Text

I understand what you mean. My point was only that this issue shouldn't have even been an issue in the first place.

[S John]

20 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Exactly. I have a Pakistani friend who has recently got indefinite leave to remain in the UK (which is a hell of an effort, despite lots of factors in her favour). I'm sure she would happily shake anyone's hand for this, because it can be a matter of live and death. Even a religious person who might not be used to shaking men's hands most of the time would usually realise in the context of obtaining citizenship it was the appropriate thing to do.

These stories always obscure the fact that 90% of Muslims and 90% of non-Muslims manage to use common sense when these sorts of cultural issues come up, and thus have no issues when living and working together. 

Even more than that, imo.  Literally almost everyone is capable of behaving in a civil manner towards one another (off of the internet, anyway).  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 4/28/2018 at 4:25 AM, ants said:

The christian baker can’t refuse service to a gay couple. 

This is less settled than you'd think, which I find idiotic. The issue is still being decided by the Supreme Court here in the US, and the side arguing they can refuse service is having wins here and there.

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is less settled than you'd think, which I find idiotic. The issue is still being decided by the Supreme Court here in the US, and the side arguing they can refuse service is having wins here and there.

Wow, who would have guessed cakes would become the centre of gay marriage controversy? We had a UK version where the Irish bakers were asked to write "Support gay marriage" on a cake and refused. I actually supported the bakers in that one. You shouldn't be compelled to write a political message. I wouldn't be comfortable with being made to write "oppose gay marriage" at my place of work. 

But yeah, your cases just seem like blatant discrimination. You can disagree with gay marriage and still make people a cake when they order one. There's no conflict. It's pretty much inevitable that, as a shop, you'll serve customers you disagree with in some way. You can't have a society without people making some effort. 

[ants]

11 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is less settled than you'd think, which I find idiotic. The issue is still being decided by the Supreme Court here in the US, and the side arguing they can refuse service is having wins here and there.

I meant within left wing thinking. 

[ants]

On 29/04/2018 at 4:56 AM, Errant Bard said:

I think the examples are not that similar, a more salient comparison would be if you compared the French state with the baker and the woman with a gay client: the first are refusing a service to the second because what the second is does not please the first... but in that case you have to allow that the French baker welcomes the muslim woman, lets her buy cake, eat cake, cook cake, but refuses to hire her when she says her religion forbids her to sell cakes.

 

I don't think you can talk about protection in a case where the bouncer tells you you cannot enter the disco because you're wearing sneakers.

No.  There isn’t a service being exchanged so the example wasn’t meant to be a metaphor  it was meant to show that modern ethical thinking allows the state to overrule religious customs and preferences in circumstances where it protects other rights in society or others’ rights.  

The club metaphor is closer, except she isn’t refused for wearing sneakers but a sign reading “women aren’t equal to men “. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 5/4/2018 at 6:35 PM, mankytoes said:

Wow, who would have guessed cakes would become the centre of gay marriage controversy? We had a UK version where the Irish bakers were asked to write "Support gay marriage" on a cake and refused. I actually supported the bakers in that one. You shouldn't be compelled to write a political message. I wouldn't be comfortable with being made to write "oppose gay marriage" at my place of work. 

But yeah, your cases just seem like blatant discrimination. You can disagree with gay marriage and still make people a cake when they order one. There's no conflict. It's pretty much inevitable that, as a shop, you'll serve customers you disagree with in some way. You can't have a society without people making some effort. 

Yeah, I saw that story when I Google searched to get the articles I linked, but decided not to include it because I didn't know enough about it (for example, I thought it was a UK wide thing, not just in a small area of Ireland). Honestly the debate produces an interesting debate about free speech, religious freedom and discrimination. I personally think the baker should have to make the cake so long as it doesn't require them to make an implicit message and/or depict something they are truly uncomfortable to make (think like a giant penis cake). Simply knowing what the cake is for is not enough to deny people service IMO.