Jump to content

"The Others Take You"


Blue_Balled_Bard

Recommended Posts

A repeated theme in ASoIaF is the observance and adherence to rituals long after their original purposes and meanings are forgotten. Oaths and vows, like those of the Night's Watch, are taken sometimes without a clear understanding (by neither the reader nor the characters!) of the origins of the words. The books are full of other examples, such as religious rituals, magic rituals, and even house words, which are repeated over and over, but which seem to carry the possibility of multiple meanings, especially as we go deeper into the books. "Winter is Coming" can be interpreted in different ways, as may "We Do Not Sow." A real puzzle for me is, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Why? Who counts as a Stark? What counts as "in Winterfell"? Is "always" negotiable? What if the last Stark in Winterfell goes out to shoot some rabbits for dinner but comes back shortly thereafter? Has he broken the rule? This one is an example of something said offhand.

Here's another one: "The Others take you."

It's a curse, like, "Go to hell," meaning, basically, get out of here and go to a bad place. But given what we know about Craster, this could also have a double meaning, a more literal meaning.

To me, it seems like there may have been a time where it was widely known that the Others took people. Since this phrase is used as a curse, perhaps this was under duress, wherein individuals were forced to go with the Others against their wills. Maybe it was for the greater good of society. This is a common trope in fairy tales, like mollifying the giant in the hills by annually feeding him a virgin from your village. This kind of human sacrifice also has a historical example in the Aztecs, who, as Craster's mantra seems to imply, were quite literally trying to "get right with the gods."

There are a lot of theories that mention ancient, unenforced agreements and lapsed pacts. I know this isn't entirely original. Perhaps Craster is the only person left who is keeping up an ancient arrangement with the Others. Or perhaps he believes he is practicing the proper form of the northern religion. Whatever is going on, I think "the Others take you," is a hint that, Once upon a time, business as usual in the North was much darker than we've seen so far in the books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey @Blue_Balled_Bard, do you have the quote for this one?

I totally remember hearing this in the books, but can't quite remember who from. 

I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that sacrifices to the Others in the past worked or kept some sort of amicable peace, but I think this one is just a Westerosi version of "go to hell."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I share the view that "the Others take you" can be explained by this conversation:

Quote

"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."

and this one:

Quote

The hostages went first—one hundred boys between the ages of eight and sixteen. "Your blood price, Lord Crow," Tormund declared. "I hope the wailing o' their poor mothers don't haunt your dreams at night."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A quick search reveals that "the Others take you (him, them, etc) is said at various points by many different characters. Like, Robb, Ned, Tyrion, Rodrik, Alester Florent, Jeor Mormont, Edmure, and Jorah Mormont. 

There could be something more to it, but at the moment it does seem to be just a Westerosi version of "go to hell". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Blue_Balled_Bard said:

There are a lot of theories that mention ancient, unenforced agreements and lapsed pacts. I know this isn't entirely original. Perhaps Craster is the only person left who is keeping up an ancient arrangement with the Others. Or perhaps he believes he is practicing the proper form of the northern religion. Whatever is going on, I think "the Others take you," is a hint that, Once upon a time, business as usual in the North was much darker than we've seen so far in the books.

Blood sacrifices were common in the North and even White Harbor, until some 500 years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Blue_Balled_Bard said:

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Why? Who counts as a Stark? What counts as "in Winterfell"? Is "always" negotiable? What if the last Stark in Winterfell goes out to shoot some rabbits for dinner but comes back shortly thereafter? Has he broken the rule?

I think people who count as Starks are...Starks. If a Lord Stark goes out to hunt, he would still be in the vicinity of the Winterfell castle. The castle has hunting grounds. So he wouldn't be venturing out. 

Of course, Starks in the past would have ventured outside of their land for wars, tourneys, etc. But in that case, I guess an heir, a brother, or a subordinate of some sort was always left at the castle. When Ned leaves, Robb is supposed to stay at the castle. But then he goes off to war leaving his very young brothers and we know what happens. 

5 hours ago, Blue_Balled_Bard said:

Here's another one: "The Others take you."

I remember Alt Shift X raising this point in the video about the WW. In the books, it's always the Others take you, not kill you or wight you. You'd think the WW would kill the humans. But that's not the case here. It could be, as you have said, some type of pact. Or, maybe the Others don't really kill people and do something else with them, as seen with Craster and his sons. The Others can't procreate on their own I think (GRRM refers to them as "neverborn" in earlier synopses for the books). Maybe they use human babies to make more of them? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, to me is pretty much like our "go to hell" in the way we encounter it in the books. As pointed out is used by most characters and is not even a super, super strong profanity.  Still, just like with our "go to hell"  I think the phrase has lost power over time.  

Okay, in our world a lot of people who do not necessary believe in a literal hell (i.e. burning literally for eternity) use this phrase ("go to hell") and it is a relatively common one among people of various faiths and/or no faith at all.  To me is very much like "fuck off."  To me what people are saying is "you are annoying me, get out of my way" but there is no real desire to see the other person burning physically or in the after life in any hell at all lol.  At the most extreme, and this varies greatly with the given context, to me it means "I want nothing further to do with you."  Still in the Middle Ages for instance most people in the Western World believed in a physical literal hell and this sort of expression it would have been a lot more powerful.

We do know for a fact that Craster sacrifices his baby boys to the Others, in fact it is almost as he is running a "factory" in that regard.  We also know that the Night Watch and his Lord Commander are aware of the fact and they leave him well alone...  So yes, of course the Others take babies, corpses as well etc so they do take humans and yes this appears to be their method of reproduction.  How they do it, I have no clue but seems to me more alike to cloning as it is interesting that they do not demand baby girls (and they would be required if mating was necessary).  Seems like White Walkers come from these babies whereas ordinary wights come from corpses.

So, in essence, although I am sure the phrase was a lot more menacing when it first appear it seems to have lost intensity over time and bear in mind that the Others haven't been seen in a long while.  Even Ned, a Northerner through and through, didn't believe the deserter was telling it right but though he had gone mental.

As for "there always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell"  I think this isn't as terribly literal as it first appears either.  Of course the Lord can go to a tournament or the capital or something.  Still, maybe leaving leaving relatives there is important, plus there is something very interesting about the crypts and the swords...  My take on this, although, it may well not be totally accurate, is that given that it is heavily hinted at that the NK was a Stark, he may not be able to attack his own kin and we all know how kinslaying is perceived in Westeros.  I reckon that phrase, although again lost it time to the point that the current Starks appear unaware of the real meaning and has now turned more or less into a superstition, I reckon this yet may hold true.  I certainly hope so but it still would get our characters possibly in the loosing side of a siege by supernatural forces.  I know this is a books thread but I am dying to see what happens in the show and I think they are likely to destroy my theory lol, which I would be a little annoyed about but oh, well.  I am pretty certain, in the books, this has to be further explained, although maybe I am in for a shock in both books and show and Winterfell, even with several Starks in, may be vulnerable...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a linguist, folklorist and non-religious person, I've always loved GRRM's "sweary language". Seven hells! The Others take you! It's very world-building.

Ancient people who really, deeply believed in the Others would not so lightly cast this curse. It's the equivalent of "go to hell" or "devil take you".  In earlier middle age Europe, such curses would've been taken a hell of a lot more seriously than we do now.

For us, especially non-religious people, those are just phrases, not magical/religious words that have some magical power. Similarly, I think, the whole of Westeros, even the North, has forgotten, and people here, there and everywhere say "the Others take you!" without knowing or understanding the Others are actually a real thing. They could quite literally take you. 

As to Craster. He gave all his male babies "to the gods". Do we know if that was what the gods = White Walkers wanted? Maybe Craster just gave all the baby boys in a twisted Oedipal way - he didn't want any son to grow up and challenge him. Keeping the girls meant he could produce more offspring, boys to the gods and girls to produce even more boys to the gods. I see some short-sighted logic in it, it's almost like a pyramid scheme.

But why wouldn't the gods (White Walkers) be happy with just male babies? Why didn't they demand girl babies? Do they reproduce asexually or not at all? Were they happy with Craster providing only male babies? It seems so. Why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's the westerosi version of "abi in malam rem".

Regarding the literal meaning, it was when I read the wild hunt myths I realized that there was something in a host of ghostly huntsmen passing by and abducting people along the way in order to take them to the underworld that reminded me of Others.

However, I can't recall any curse related to the wild hunt in the real world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/23/2018 at 5:01 AM, Blue_Balled_Bard said:

 

Here's another one: "The Others take you."

It's a curse, like, "Go to hell," meaning, basically, get out of here and go to a bad place. But given what we know about Craster, this could also have a double meaning, a more literal meaning.

To me, it seems like there may have been a time where it was widely known that the Others took people. Since this phrase is used as a curse, perhaps this was under duress, wherein individuals were forced to go with the Others against their wills. Maybe it was for the greater good of society. This is a common trope in fairy tales, like mollifying the giant in the hills by annually feeding him a virgin from your village. This kind of human sacrifice also has a historical example in the Aztecs, who, as Craster's mantra seems to imply, were quite literally trying to "get right with the gods."

Taking is synonymous with death and often used when a person does not want to speak of death directly as in, "the lord chose to take our father today" 
Now that being said, the others literally take you when you are dead and make you do their bidding 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

As to Craster. He gave all his male babies "to the gods". Do we know if that was what the gods = White Walkers wanted? Maybe Craster just gave all the baby boys in a twisted Oedipal way - he didn't want any son to grow up and challenge him. Keeping the girls meant he could produce more offspring, boys to the gods and girls to produce even more boys to the gods. I see some short-sighted logic in it, it's almost like a pyramid scheme.

This has been my take from the start. Whatever it is the WWs want or take, regardless what their motivation is, Craster's been giving his male sons exactly because he wants to get rid of any possible future competition. :ack:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think the author is using deliberate irony with the, "The Others take you!" language, showing us that people have forgotten the meaning but still use the phrase. Or, maybe, they could explain the meaning of the phrase but they consider the Others to be fairy tale monsters. They also talk of grumkins and snarks (mostly in the North) and there is widespread belief that those are creatures from superstition and folk tales.

Another phrase that caught my eye is not so much an oath as (it seems) an idiom: "For half a groat, I'd . . . " I believe Cersei is the only one to use this expression. Because Tyrion takes on the roll of the dwarf mummer, Groat, the phrase seems to have a double meaning relating to Cersei's desire to punish Tyrion with beheading.

It might also be worth examining the use of the term "prayer" in the context of discussing oaths and swearing. Arya's list of people she wants dead is referred to as her prayer. In the Dunk & Egg stories, there is a line presented as a shield rhyme that would be taught to a child: "Oak and iron, guard me well or else I'm dead and doomed to hell." Because Dunk mentions that he doesn't know any prayers but he recalls this rhyme at a critical moment when he needs protection, I think it falls into the category of a prayer. Eddard Stark goes into the godswood to pray but he also goes there to clean blood off his sword after killing a human being. Is that also a form of prayer?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Seams said:

I do think the author is using deliberate irony with the, "The Others take you!" language, showing us that people have forgotten the meaning but still use the phrase. Or, maybe, they could explain the meaning of the phrase but they consider the Others to be fairy tale monsters. They also talk of grumkins and snarks (mostly in the North) and there is widespread belief that those are creatures from superstition and folk tales.

 

I agree.  The Others take you, literally, and they also take your eyes, to quote Joer Mormont.  The original meaning has been lost, but it is remembered and loosely used as a 'curse'.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/23/2018 at 11:16 PM, JaneSnow said:

The whole "others take you" thing becomes a lot more amusing if you replace others with udders. Sorry, I just thought of that and I had to share it with someone

Curiously, the Others (and Long Night/Winter/old gods) are associated with many milk references symbolically, so perhaps that particular pun is not all that far-fetched! The evidence for this association is overwhelming, so I will only provide a few illustrative examples, not an exhaustive list, here:

Quote

Ripples were running across the surface of the water when they arrived, making the reflection of the weirwood shimmer and dance. There was no wind, though. For an instant Bran was baffled.

And then Osha exploded up out of the pool with a great splash, so sudden that even Summer leapt back, snarling. Hodor jumped away, wailing "Hodor, Hodor" in dismay until Bran patted his shoulder to soothe his fears. "How can you swim in there?" he asked Osha. "Isn't it cold?"

"As a babe I suckled on icicles, boy. I like the cold." Osha swam to the rocks and rose dripping. She was naked, her skin bumpy with gooseprickles. Summer crept close and sniffed at her. "I wanted to touch the bottom."

 

Quote

but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk.

 

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

 

 

Quote

 "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

A weirwood is a giant, so Bran, like Tormund in the embrace of the she-bear, is a 'giant's babe' (and possibly also bane). Note how the weirwood holds the greenseers and supplicants in a motherly embrace. Bran is figuratively suckling at the tit of an icy wet nurse.

Quote

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him.

 

Quote

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her

Night's Queen symbolism.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I agree.  The Others take you, literally, and they also take your eyes, to quote Joer Mormont.  The original meaning has been lost, but it is remembered and loosely used as a 'curse'.  

The Cold also takes ones ears, fingers and toes:

Quote

"Such eloquence, Gared," Ser Waymar observed. "I never suspected you had it in you."

"I've had the cold in me too, lordling." Gared pulled back his hood, giving Ser Waymar a good long look at the stumps where his ears had been. "Two ears, three toes, and the little finger off my left hand. I got off light. We found my brother frozen at his watch, with a smile on his face."

 

Quote

 

And then there was nothing to be done for it. The order had been given, and honor bound them to obey.

Will went in front, his shaggy little garron picking the way carefully through the undergrowth. A light snow had fallen the night before, and there were stones and roots and hidden sinks lying just under its crust, waiting for the careless and the unwary. Ser Waymar Royce came next, his great black destrier snorting impatiently. The warhorse was the wrong mount for ranging, but try and tell that to the lordling. Gared brought up the rear. The old man-at-arms muttered to himself as he rode.

Twilight deepened. The cloudless sky turned a deep purple, the color of an old bruise, then faded to black. The stars began to come out. A half-moon rose.

 

After being insulted by the insufferable Lordling Waymar, what did Gared mutter under his breath, and what was the nature of the 'silent prayer' uttered by Will to the nameless, faceless gods of the wood..? Could they have cursed Ser Waymar, saying something akin to 'the Others take him'?!

#killing word...

2 hours ago, Seams said:

It might also be worth examining the use of the term "prayer" in the context of discussing oaths and swearing. Arya's list of people she wants dead is referred to as her prayer. In the Dunk & Egg stories, there is a line presented as a shield rhyme that would be taught to a child: "Oak and iron, guard me well or else I'm dead and doomed to hell." Because Dunk mentions that he doesn't know any prayers but he recalls this rhyme at a critical moment when he needs protection, I think it falls into the category of a prayer. Eddard Stark goes into the godswood to pray but he also goes there to clean blood off his sword after killing a human being. Is that also a form of prayer?

 

Quote

The gods give each of us our little gifts and talents, and it is meant for us to use them, my aunt always says. Any act can be a prayer, if done as well as we are able. Isn't that a lovely thought? Remember that the next time you do your needlework

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The Cold also takes ones ears, fingers and toes:

The Others also use your eyes once you've been taken whether you actually have eyes or not:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree on all of this.  I do also think the author is having characters use this phrase a bit ironically because it's just become a mundane curse devoid of the original meaning/weight (but that realization is on it's way back - big time!).  Martin even had Robert, in effect, say "To hell with your 'mild snows'!" to Ned in my sig quote that I've always had particular fondness for because I feel it basically encapsulates the whole of ASoIaF in a brief, casual bit of conversation;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/29/2018 at 0:10 AM, talvikorppi said:

As a linguist, folklorist and non-religious person, I've always loved GRRM's "sweary language". Seven hells! The Others take you! It's very world-building.

Ancient people who really, deeply believed in the Others would not so lightly cast this curse. It's the equivalent of "go to hell" or "devil take you".  In earlier middle age Europe, such curses would've been taken a hell of a lot more seriously than we do now.

For us, especially non-religious people, those are just phrases, not magical/religious words that have some magical power. Similarly, I think, the whole of Westeros, even the North, has forgotten, and people here, there and everywhere say "the Others take you!" without knowing or understanding the Others are actually a real thing. They could quite literally take you. 

As to Craster. He gave all his male babies "to the gods". Do we know if that was what the gods = White Walkers wanted? Maybe Craster just gave all the baby boys in a twisted Oedipal way - he didn't want any son to grow up and challenge him. Keeping the girls meant he could produce more offspring, boys to the gods and girls to produce even more boys to the gods. I see some short-sighted logic in it, it's almost like a pyramid scheme.

But why wouldn't the gods (White Walkers) be happy with just male babies? Why didn't they demand girl babies? Do they reproduce asexually or not at all? Were they happy with Craster providing only male babies? It seems so. Why?

lol interesting profession you have and I would like more!

I have my own theories about the crypts in WF, but there you are.   In essence, yes I think the Others don't reproduce by intercourse but some sort of cloning hence they only need boys...  (If they needed normal mammal intercourse they would have taken girls too, surely...)

It is feasible that Craster feared his baby sons as capable of over-rulling him but the way he talks I personally feel he is terrified of what the Others may do if he does not comply...

Craster's Hall makes that obvious...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...