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"The Others Take You"

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On 4/23/2018 at 7:01 PM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think people who count as Starks are...Starks. If a Lord Stark goes out to hunt, he would still be in the vicinity of the Winterfell castle. The castle has hunting grounds. So he wouldn't be venturing out. 

Of course, Starks in the past would have ventured outside of their land for wars, tourneys, etc. But in that case, I guess an heir, a brother, or a subordinate of some sort was always left at the castle. When Ned leaves, Robb is supposed to stay at the castle. But then he goes off to war leaving his very young brothers and we know what happens. 

I remember Alt Shift X raising this point in the video about the WW. In the books, it's always the Others take you, not kill you or wight you. You'd think the WW would kill the humans. But that's not the case here. It could be, as you have said, some type of pact. Or, maybe the Others don't really kill people and do something else with them, as seen with Craster and his sons. The Others can't procreate on their own I think (GRRM refers to them as "neverborn" in earlier synopses for the books). Maybe they use human babies to make more of them? 

lol they certainly make human babies their elite lol pretty much cannon.

Now, when Bran and co took the swords... I think they awaken something, unknown to them lol  Still WWs were out and about before that... Ned killed that deserter!  His sons taking the swords from the tobs did not do that!!!  However, I do believe that the Kings in the North need to be protected and that humanity needs to be protected from them (with the swords)/

I do believe that Brandon the Builder made a path with both Starks and Children of the Forrest..which, as you said, has been all but forgotten...

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On 4/29/2018 at 12:10 AM, talvikorppi said:

As a linguist, folklorist and non-religious person, I've always loved GRRM's "sweary language". Seven hells! The Others take you! It's very world-building.

Ancient people who really, deeply believed in the Others would not so lightly cast this curse. It's the equivalent of "go to hell" or "devil take you".  In earlier middle age Europe, such curses would've been taken a hell of a lot more seriously than we do now.

For us, especially non-religious people, those are just phrases, not magical/religious words that have some magical power. Similarly, I think, the whole of Westeros, even the North, has forgotten, and people here, there and everywhere say "the Others take you!" without knowing or understanding the Others are actually a real thing. They could quite literally take you. 

As to Craster. He gave all his male babies "to the gods". Do we know if that was what the gods = White Walkers wanted? Maybe Craster just gave all the baby boys in a twisted Oedipal way - he didn't want any son to grow up and challenge him. Keeping the girls meant he could produce more offspring, boys to the gods and girls to produce even more boys to the gods. I see some short-sighted logic in it, it's almost like a pyramid scheme.

But why wouldn't the gods (White Walkers) be happy with just male babies? Why didn't they demand girl babies? Do they reproduce asexually or not at all? Were they happy with Craster providing only male babies? It seems so. Why?

Great stuff!  Now he did tell the Night Watch that the Gods didn't bother him...  Sorry, I realise this was unclear (my last phrase).  I meant that Craster is "very bothered by the Gods" but that due to his paying his dues as, say a bannerman would pay Ned Stark his royalties, he is left in peace for now...  Actually, Craster seems to adhere to the feudal system, wildling or not, when it comes to this gods lol

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 4/29/2018 at 6:16 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Taking is synonymous with death and often used when a person does not want to speak of death directly as in, "the lord chose to take our father today" 
Now that being said, the others literally take you when you are dead and make you do their bidding 

I strongly believe, could be wrong, that the Kings of Winter have the sword on them for two reasons:  stopping them from going afield in the future; preventing others from killing them lol  or taking the  Castle.  If I am correct the Knight King is a Stark and cannot take the castle by force...

I gues they can snige it but never take it!

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I strongly believe, could be wrong, that the Kings of Winter have the sword on them for two reasons:  stopping them from going afield in the future; preventing others from killing them lol  or taking the  Castle. 

I have always thought that the sword across the lap of the statue harkens to a time where something heavy, or something magical was placed over a dead body if you were not able to burn it. The original concept lost in the thousands of years since the long night, but kept as ritual over time. Like so many parts of the watch. 
 

5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

 If I am correct the Knight King is a Stark and cannot take the castle by force...

I gues they can snige it but never take it!

I have always thought it does not matter who the night's king was. It will be the physical walls and the geothermal heating that prevents the others and the wights from taking Winterfell 

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17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I have always thought that the sword across the lap of the statue harkens to a time where something heavy, or something magical was placed over a dead body if you were not able to burn it. The original concept lost in the thousands of years since the long night, but kept as ritual over time. Like so many parts of the watch. 
 

I have always thought it does not matter who the night's king was. It will be the physical walls and the geothermal heating that prevents the others and the wights from taking Winterfell 

For the second part I think you are likely right, certainly the volcanic terrain is there for a reason, I think... but there may be some reasoning re the Knight King being a Stark...

As for the first part, sounds very plausible too but still I am inclined to think that is likely to prevent the dead Stark Kings/Lords from raising from their tombs...  Time will tell ;) but the crypts fascinate me I have to say.

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18 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

For the second part I think you are likely right, certainly the volcanic terrain is there for a reason, I think... but there may be some reasoning re the Knight King being a Stark...

As for the first part, sounds very plausible too but still I am inclined to think that is likely to prevent the dead Stark Kings/Lords from raising from their tombs...  Time will tell ;) but the crypts fascinate me I have to say.

I figured the stone lids to the sarcophagi would be heavy enough to keep an undead corpse in it  

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On 5/6/2018 at 4:08 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

lol they certainly make human babies their elite lol pretty much cannon.

What?

On 5/6/2018 at 4:08 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

Now, when Bran and co took the swords... I think they awaken something, unknown to them lol  Still WWs were out and about before that... Ned killed that deserter!  His sons taking the swords from the tobs did not do that!!!  However, I do believe that the Kings in the North need to be protected and that humanity needs to be protected from them (with the swords)/

What are you trying to say? Why would humanity need to be protected from the kings of the north? 

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Presumably, by removing the swords, Bran, Meera, Osha and Hodor have allowed the souls of Brandon, Rickard, Eddard (though his bones aren't there yet) and random unnamed King of Winter to "get out". If the reason for their bodies being locked away in the crypts and sealed in with swords is related to the Others rising then if the Others ever get within range of the crypts those corpses (as well as the ones with rusted away swords) could break out and attack Winterfell from within its Walls...

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On 5/5/2018 at 6:38 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

Now, when Bran and co took the swords... I think they awaken something, unknown to them lol  Still WWs were out and about before that... Ned killed that deserter!  His sons taking the swords from the tombs did not do that!!!  However, I do believe that the Kings in the North need to be protected and that humanity needs to be protected from them (with the swords)/

If your post implies that taking swords from the Winterfell crypt unleashed the White Walkers, then you are right in pointing out that the White Walkers were apparently roaming Beyond the Wall before Bran and his companions took the swords. But other crypt swords were taken or missing before Bran and his group left Winterfell.

The later Theon POVs (Turncloak and A Ghost in Winterfell) tell us that some of the oldest crypt swords rusted and disintegrated. Also, there may be hints that Theon was taking swords before Bran and his traveling companions took some. Theon talks about hiding "treasures" in the gods wood and he arrives in the Iron Islands with fancy clothes and a brooch that are more than anything the Stark kids wear - where did he get the money to buy such things? Perhaps by selling old swords? Paying the iron price, but in a way his family wouldn't support?

We also know that Ser Rodrik wouldn't let the Stark kids and Theon have iron swords - they used wooden swords right up until Robb goes to war. It wouldn't surprise me if Theon and possibly Robb had taken swords from the crypt so they could practice with real blades.

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

If your post implies that taking swords from the Winterfell crypt unleashed the White Walkers, then you are right in pointing out that the White Walkers were apparently roaming Beyond the Wall before Bran and his companions took the swords. But other crypt swords were taken or missing before Bran and his group left Winterfell.

The later Theon POVs (Turncloak and A Ghost in Winterfell) tell us that some of the oldest crypt swords rusted and disintegrated. Also, there may be hints that Theon was taking swords before Bran and his traveling companions took some. Theon talks about hiding "treasures" in the gods wood and he arrives in the Iron Islands with fancy clothes and a brooch that are more than anything the Stark kids wear - where did he get the money to buy such things? Perhaps by selling old swords? Paying the iron price, but in a way his family wouldn't support?

We also know that Ser Rodrik wouldn't let the Stark kids and Theon have iron swords - they used wooden swords right up until Robb goes to war. It wouldn't surprise me if Theon and possibly Robb had taken swords from the crypt so they could practice with real blades.

I have to say you make excellent points here.  Not a 100% certain about Theon selling the swords but yes his attire appears quite overdone, although perhaps is because we see it from the POV of his father (as it is Balon who brings it out in dialogue) as opposed to, say, Theon himself dressing up to impress from his own POV, although he must have done thinking about it...  Yet, the Starks with the exception perhaps of Sansa are probably among the less ostentatious noble family in Westeros lol so if that looked ostentatious to Balon, mayhaps it was...  Good observations in any event but I am definitely convinced that the crypts and their "inhabitants" are going to be important.  Also, what is going on with all these murders in WF in the preview chapters for TWOW though lol...

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@Morgana Lannister, the murders at Winterfell happen during Dance, and "Abel's washerwomen" all but admit to the killings except for Little Walder. 

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8 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

What?

What are you trying to say? Why would humanity need to be protected from the kings of the north? 

Okay, I am just theorising here so I could well be totally off the mark.  Still, Craster offering his male newborns to the Others has to serve a purpose.  The Others can very easily make wights out of any dead body, so why do they need Craster's babies?   I don't, by the way, think there is anything too specific about Craster's blood for it to be necessary to make WWs, although it could be that they have to be the blood of the First Men, say...  So it wouldn't make sense for the Others to have to offer protection to Craster for providing babies if these babies were just to become wights, since anyone dead will do lol so that is why I conclude (in the absence of further info) that they are turning them into WWs, i.e. elite within the Others' hierarchy in some level.

I am sorry if I did not expressed myself correctly or clearly.  No, I don't believe humanity is under threat from the Kings in the North (that we know of) but there is a strong connection between the Night King and the Starks which has been hinted at numerous times (again, as always I could be wrong and George could have tried to mislead us via Old Nana etc).  My thought is that they could be vulnerable in their graves (they were not burnt) without the swords and could awake as wights or something (or WWs).  Also, if it turns out that it is true that the Night King was a Stark mortal once he might have a "special interest" in enlisting his kin.  However, pardon the pun, I think this may well be a double-edged sword in that I don't think he will attack Winterfell (although might siege it) due to the taboo re killing kin.  I know this could be a stretch though, but it kind of makes sense to me.

It is true to say that the Old King's bodies will be nothing but dust by now but maybe something remains... mayhaps enough to turn them.  In any event, I would find it a bit odd if all that built up wasn't leading somewhere, I mean the crypts, Old Nana, Bran the Builder etc.  Again, and of course still speculating, it may be that only a Stark can end the Night King... (not sure how or why) but the connection appears so strongly hinted at that there has to be some kind of a link.  Okay, maybe the dragons can do it too but maybe the Starks need the dragons to physically do it but maybe the dragons alone could not do it themselves.  Still a lot of loose ends like what is the role of R'hollor etc (if any)?  Things, despite the show and I won't mention spoilers seem to point at Jon in a big way but Bran has to be huge in this too.

Digressing a bit I believe the WWs are not without some sort of justification and I am inclined to believe that there will be some sort of a truce as opposed to an incontestable defeat by the living but that is another topic.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Morgana Lannister, the murders at Winterfell happen during Dance, and "Abel's washerwomen" all but admit to the killings except for Little Walder. 

Sorry, I am not very good at remembering exactly when things happened and yes some of them do but what would be the plot purpose?  I mean, we all know the guy is a nasty piece of work, and we know about the Freys and the Red Wedding.  Why hammer the issue (on George's part) there has to be more, I suspect...

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5 hours ago, Faera said:

Presumably, by removing the swords, Bran, Meera, Osha and Hodor have allowed the souls of Brandon, Rickard, Eddard (though his bones aren't there yet) and random unnamed King of Winter to "get out". If the reason for their bodies being locked away in the crypts and sealed in with swords is related to the Others rising then if the Others ever get within range of the crypts those corpses (as well as the ones with rusted away swords) could break out and attack Winterfell from within its Walls...

If they manage to possess these Old Kings, yes...  although some of them still have swords, rusted or not, and I think the "kinslaying" thing is why WF has been kind of immune (just a theory though) but it may well come to that, not just a dance of dragons but a dance of dead Starks.  lol these forums are brilliant in that brainstorming with other members can generate ideas in my mind that hadn't occurred to me before.

Actually, sorry, I think (again of course cannot be sure), the dead ones that become vulnerable may just be the ones whose swords were taken not the whole of the dead Kings/Lords.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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7 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Sorry, I am not very good at remembering exactly when things happened and yes some of them do but what would be the plot purpose?  I mean, we all know the guy is a nasty piece of work, and we know about the Freys and the Red Wedding.  Why hammer the issue (on George's part) there has to be more, I suspect...

Plot purpose of what, the murders? Or are we talking swords again?

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Plot purpose of what, the murders? Or are we talking swords again?

Here I was referring to the murders actually.  Why include the plot at all to show that Walder is a little shit, we already know that.  Anyhow, will be back later, off to cook dinner for some friends lol

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Just now, Morgana Lannister said:

Here I was referring to the murders actually.

I think the point is mostly to create tension, it feels terrible actually. :D

 

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On 4/23/2018 at 8:01 AM, Blue_Balled_Bard said:

 

Here's another one: "The Others take you."

 

As to the, “Others take you” it is in my opinion a euphemism.  It is a difficult search to undertake since the words vary. I didn’t get a hit on “the Other’s take you” or “the others take you”  or "the Other's take you" on the search site.

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On 5/5/2018 at 6:21 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

I have my own theories about the crypts in WF, but there you are. 

I think there is reason to question martin’s WF crypt stuff. The intro is Eddard telling King Bob about the ancient custom that was ensconced before the Dragonlords crossed the seas.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I       By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North./

Then there was that little mix up when Hodor refused to tote Bran into the crypts. At about the time of Eddard’s beheading, both Bran and Rickon dreamt Eddard was in the crypts. Martin added a more detailed description about the crypts. The vault was cavernous and longer than WF itself.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII     "They were the Kings in the North for thousands of years," Maester Luwin said, lifting the torch high so the light shone on the stone faces. Some were hairy and bearded, shaggy men fierce as the wolves that crouched by their feet. Others were shaved clean, their features gaunt and sharp-edged as the iron longswords across their laps. "Hard men for a hard time. Come." He strode briskly down the vault, past the procession of stone pillars and the endless carved figures. A tongue of flame trailed back from the upraised torch as he went.         The vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself, and Jon had told him once that there were other levels underneath, vaults even deeper and darker where the older kings were buried. It would not do to lose the light. Summer refused to move from the steps, even when Osha followed the torch, Bran in her arms./

Then martin added the sword across the knee ---- when Tyrion was on his return trip from the Wall. Sword across the knee means not welcome here. Actually the words were: “His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.”

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV     Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and Hallis Mollen stood behind him. A dozen guardsmen lined the grey stone walls beneath tall narrow windows. In the center of the room the dwarf stood with his servants, and four strangers in the black of the Night's Watch. Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors.       "Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.       "Any man of the Night's Watch," the dwarf repeated, "but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?"/

Jon has his WF dream about the crypts and a feast. What confused me about this quote are the last two lines. Is that when Robb dies?

Storm of Swords - Jon VIII     He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . /

The vault, depending upon how martin uses words such as the crypts, vault, tombs, caverns, etc, is ambiguous in the story telling.  There is in my opinion reason to question the relevance of the WF crypts. The vaults are supposedly larger than WF. Could that possibly insinuate that there is a big arse cave down there somewhere?

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On 4/23/2018 at 8:01 AM, Blue_Balled_Bard said:

"The Others take you."

Now eating crow. Me and my bored self-----

Three hits  on the search site--- context removed.

A Storm of Swords - Davos III       The Others take you all! Release me!"

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn IV     The Others take you all! Very well, I'll wed the wench.

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V     "The Others take you, Selmy." Ser Jorah flung his longsword to the carpet. "

 

 

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