Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

LiveFirstDieLater

The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, zandru said:

Could you point me to where this "fact" is documented? All I recall is that Ramsey "took the women" and killed all the men. I didn't see any indication of names, and Nan was old as Maester Aemon, thus less likely to survive the trip. Probably didn't provide much sport for Ramsey's "girls", either.

I can picture Ramsay crawled up beneath his blankets listening to Old Nan's horror stories with click click sounds from knitting.

"Tell me more nan!"

"You've been a naughty lil' young man today, my bitter summer child, so no."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, I love a good ol' "Bloodraven =/ 3EC" thread.

It's a nice idea but based on what you've set forth, I see no real reason to think that Old Nan is the 3EC. Aside from anything else, why would she identify herself with a bird that she casts in a bad light? Together with there being no real reason as far as I can see for her to appear in Bran's dreams as a three-eyed-anything.

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Imagine that you have read TWOW, and in there it was revealed, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she's also the 3EC, what's your reaction?

Personally, I'd be disappointed. Shiera feels like one of those characters who I feel has been blown up because of the forum more than anything GRRM has written in his novels. Most of what we know about her comes from TWoIAF book, not ASOIAF or even DnE. I can just about accept her being Quaithe since such a revelation would be no different than Bloodraven turning up as he did in ADwD... but giving her the 3EC as well feels like too many fingers in too many pies for a character who means next to nothing much to the story so far. Better the 3EC is Bloodraven since a crow does fit his modus operandi.

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I actually like the idea that Old Nan is Shiera Seastar...

I'd prefer it if Old Nan was simply turns out to be the lady kissing that man as tall as Hodor (in before "it was Dunk!" :D) in Bran's visions.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

So I think the 3EC in this case is a man of the night's watch.  I also think that Patchface identifies the 3EC for us:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

[snip]The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon.

I know we've discussed the idea of Jon being the 3EC before but I never quite understood how it would work chronologically.

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If I was a casual reader which most readers of ASOIAF are, then my reaction would be, "huh?" because Shiera is only mentioned once in the 5 main books and then only in passing and certainly not memorably.

She's not even a big part of DnE, either. I probably wouldn't have remembered who she was at all had it not been for this forum and the wider fanbase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Faera said:

Ah, I love a good ol' "Bloodraven =/ 3EC" thread.

It's a nice idea but based on what you've set forth, I see no real reason to think that Old Nan is the 3EC. Aside from anything else, why would she identify herself with a bird that she casts in a bad light? Together with there being no real reason as far as I can see for her to appear in Bran's dreams as a three-eyed-anything.

Personally, I'd be disappointed. Shiera feels like one of those characters who I feel has been blown up because of the forum more than anything GRRM has written in his novels. Most of what we know about her comes from TWoIAF book, not ASOIAF or even DnE. I can just about accept her being Quaithe since such a revelation would be no different than Bloodraven turning up as he did in ADwD... but giving her the 3EC as well feels like too many fingers in too many pies for a character who means next to nothing much to the story so far. Better the 3EC is Bloodraven since a crow does fit his modus operandi.

I'd prefer it if Old Nan was simply turns out to be the lady kissing that man as tall as Hodor (in before "it was Dunk!" :D) in Bran's visions.

I know we've discussed the idea of Jon being the 3EC before but I never quite understood how it would work chronologically.

She's not even a big part of DnE, either. I probably wouldn't have remembered who she was at all had it not been for this forum and the wider fanbase.

True

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Faera said:

Ah, I love a good ol' "Bloodraven =/ 3EC" thread.

If it ain’t broke then, well, never mind...

Quote

It's a nice idea but based on what you've set forth, I see no real reason to think that Old Nan is the 3EC. Aside from anything else, why would she identify herself with a bird that she casts in a bad light?

Yes, I do believe she is calling herself a liar... 

She is the first one to mention crows coming to peck Bran:

Quote

Since his father would not forbid it, she turned to others. Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crowscame to peck out his eyes.

 And then after Bran falls she agrees with him all crows are liars, since she’s the one who told him he could fly, and then right after we get her backstory about coming to nurse some Brandon Stark... 

Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another.

 

Quote

Together with there being no real reason as far as I can see for her to appear in Bran's dreams as a three-eyed-anything.

Two normal eyes plus the one spirit eye... 100% closer than Bloodraven is to having three eyes! Also, why I’m not surprised to see Bloodraven appear as a two eyed tree, one real eye and one spirit eye.

Quote

Personally, I'd be disappointed. Shiera feels like one of those characters who I feel has been blown up because of the forum more than anything GRRM has written in his novels. Most of what we know about her comes from TWoIAF book, not ASOIAF or even DnE. I can just about accept her being Quaithe since such a revelation would be no different than Bloodraven turning up as he did in ADwD... but giving her the 3EC as well feels like too many fingers in too many pies for a character who means next to nothing much to the story so far. Better the 3EC is Bloodraven since a crow does fit his modus operandi.

Let’s be clear though, the story isn’t finished and this is a detail which hasn’t emerged yet... this is an attempt to jump the gun, and we don’t have even the whole D&E story yet, so it’s no surprise we know next to nothing about Seastar.

Given how it sure seems like Dunk will be making his way to Winterfell, and we know the dragons took part in defeating the Greyjoy’s at that time, it’s not like it’s crazy to think we’ll be learning more.

Quote

I'd prefer it if Old Nan was simply turns out to be the lady kissing that man as tall as Hodor (in before "it was Dunk!" :D) in Bran's visions.

It’s possible, his shield ended up on Tarth, but there is something appealing about him being Hodor’s forefather. Although there isn’t really evidence for this either. 

I will say that I’m suspicious of Nan’s swatting of Hodor given what the three eyed crows buffeting of Bran did to his memory!

Quote

She's not even a big part of DnE, either. I probably wouldn't have remembered who she was at all had it not been for this forum and the wider fanbase.

Except that she is one of the great bastards... Bloodraven, Bittersteel, and Blackfyre have been mentioned relatively few times all together, but those of us paying attention know they, or their legacies, are still playing major roles in the plot... 

Also on a more practice note, these characters have been written to fill in history and plot, none of them are mentioned early in the series because they hadn’t been fully conceived. There is nothing crazy about introducing a small bit player in the prequel series so that she can end up being the Old Mystery Woman in the main books. 

 

One last note on Seastar/Qaithe and my biggest problem with this theory... the eyes... it is the single most defining feature for both women, but not in the same way. If the author has a character focusing on Qaithe’s eyes to notice how unusually wet they are, they should notice if they are remarkably different colors. It makes no sense that a character wouldn’t notice this remarkable trait.

Now if the woman was super old, almost blind, and had eyes covered in filmy cataracts, it would make more sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Imagine that you have read TWOW, and in there it was revealed, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she's also the 3EC, what's your reaction?

Why the hell didn’t Dany notice her eyes were different colors when she was looking at them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Imagine that you have read TWOW, and in there it was revealed, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she's also the 3EC, what's your reaction?

Why the hell didn’t Dany notice her eyes were different colors when she was looking at them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Megorova said:

She did survived the trip, because she was mentioned in the Appendix of Crows.

Very observant! Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If I was a casual reader which most readers of ASOIAF are, then my reaction would be, "huh?" because Shiera is only mentioned once in the 5 main books and then only in passing and certainly not memorably.

Same could be said about Bloodraven. This is information given about him in ASOIAF books, prior Bran met him:

AFFC, Sam II:

Quote

“When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander.”

“Bloodraven?” said Dareon. “I know a song about him. ‘A Thousand Eyes, and One,’ it’s called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago.”

“We all did. Once I was as young as you.”

But aside from that one time, when he was mentioned in the books, he also appeared to Bran in his dreams as a weirwood, starting from AGOT.

If my theory about Quaithe/Shiera/3EC is correct, then let's go thru moments where she was either present on pages of ASOIAF books, or was mentioned there, and let's see how many times it happened:

Spoiler
  1. AGOT, Bran III: " “I’m flying!” he cried out in delight.

    I’ve noticed, said the three-eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as its pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.

    “What are you doing?” he shrieked.

    The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, “He’s awake, he’s awake, he’s awake.” "

  2. AGOT, Bran VII: " “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.” "

  3. AGOT, Dany IX: "the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky ~ but suddenly the stars were gone ~ Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one ~ After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."
  4. ACOK, Dany I: "The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, “I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons.” "
  5. ACOK, Bran II: "On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords. ~ “Fly or die!” cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. "
  6. ACOK, Dany II: "Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. “Beware,” the woman in the red lacquer mask said.

    “Of whom?”

    “Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power.”

    When Quaithe too was gone, Ser Jorah said, “She speaks truly, my queen . . . though I like her no more than the others.”

    “I do not understand her.” Pyat and Xaro had showered Dany with promises from the moment they first glimpsed her dragons, declaring themselves her loyal servants in all things, but from Quaithe she had gotten only the rare cryptic word. And it disturbed her that she had never seen the woman’s face. Remember Mirri Maz Duur, she told herself. Remember treachery."

  7. ACOK, Bran IV: " “I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,” he said. “It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.”

    “Did the crow have three eyes?”

    Jojen nodded."

  8. ACOK, Dany III: " “A fine trick,” announced Jhogo with admiration.

    “No trick,” a woman said in the Common Tongue.

    Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. “What mean you, my lady?”

    “Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets.”

    Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. “And now?”

    “And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it.”

    “Me?” She laughed. “How could that be?”

    The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

    “She is, and no spawn of shadows may touch her.” Jhogo brushed Quaithe’s fingers away with the handle of his whip.

    The woman took a step backward. “You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all.”

    Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you have me go?” she asked.

    “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

    Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?”

    “Truth,” said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd."

  9. ASOS, Dany I: "And there was Quaithe of the Shadow, that strange woman in the red lacquer mask with all her cryptic counsel. Was she an enemy too, or only a dangerous friend? Dany could not say."

  10. ASOS, Dany III: "Someone was in the cabin with her.

    “Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?” Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. “Jorah, is that you?”

    “They sleep,” a woman said. “They all sleep.” The voice was very close. “Even dragons must sleep.”

    She is standing over me. “Who’s there?” Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. “What do you want of me?”

    “Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

    Quaithe?” Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. “Khaleesi?” murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask. “Khaleesi, are you unwell?” asked Jhiqui.

    “A dream.” Dany shook her head. “I dreamed a dream, no more. Go back to sleep. All of us, go back to sleep.” Yet try as she might, sleep would not come again."

  11. ADWD, Jon I: "The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

    “Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. ~ 

    “Snow,” the moon insisted.

    The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air."

  12. ADWD, Bran I: "How much longer? It’s so cold. Where is the three-eyed crow? ~ "

  13. ADWD, Dany II: "A soft rustle made her open them again. She sat up with a soft splash. “Missandei?” she called. “Irri? Jhiqui?”

    “They sleep,” came the answer.

    A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. “Quaithe? Am I dreaming?” She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. “I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor.”

    “You did not dream. Then or now.”

    “What are you doing here? How did you get past my guards?”

    “I came another way. Your guards never saw me.”

    “If I call out, they will kill you.”

    “They will swear to you that I am not here.”

    Are you here?”

    “No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

    “Reznak? Why should I fear him?” Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. “If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?”

    Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes. “To show you the way.”

    “I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow.” She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. “I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—”

    Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are.”

    “The blood of the dragon.” But my dragons are roaring in the darkness. “I remember the Undying. Child of three, they called me. Three mounts they promised me, three fires, and three treasons. One for blood and one for gold and one for …”

    “Your Grace?” Missandei stood in the door of the queen’s bedchamber, a lantern in her hand. “Who are you talking to?”

    Dany glanced back toward the persimmon tree. There was no woman there. No hooded robe, no lacquer mask, no Quaithe.

    A shadow. A memory. No one."

  14. ADWD, Bran II: " “Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

    “A … crow?” "

  15. ADWD, The Kingbreaker: "Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled."

  16. ADWD, Dany X: "She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

    “Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?”

    Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”"

In 16 chapters, thru POVs of Dany, Bran, once in Jon's wolf-dream, and once in Barristan's. And all those times, when Bran said, that the crow lied to him, in several more chapters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The Three Eyed Crow is Old Nan

In Bran's dreams, when the 3-eyed crow speaks, there are no quotation marks around his dialog--indicating that they are Bran's own thoughts.

Quote
The voice was high and thin. Bran looked around to see where it was coming from. A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell. "Help me," he said.
I'm trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?

When Jon thinks a thought, there are no quotation marks.

Quote

This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

When Quaithe visits Dany in dreams, her dialog is in quotes--indicating that it is another person speaking.

Quote

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

 

3-eyed crow is future Bran. 

Quote

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood.

Quote

She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

Quote

Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes. In the stories they were always evil. "I'm not like that," Bran said. "I'm not. It's only dreams."

Quote

If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

Quote

The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands.

Bran is a "villain" the Night's King/3-eyed-crow evil shapechanger, who visits the Isle of Faces and makes the trees no longer have eyes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Faera said:

I can just about accept her being Quaithe since such a revelation would be no different than Bloodraven turning up as he did in ADwD... but giving her the 3EC as well feels like too many fingers in too many pies for a character who means next to nothing much to the story so far.

Brynden Rivers ~ Bloodraven ~ weirwood in Bran's dreams.

Shiera Seastar ~ Quaithe ~ 3EC in Bran's dreams.

While he was also the Hand of two Targaryen Kings (Aerys I and Maekar I), Master of whisperers in Small Council of Daeron II, chief of Raven's Teeth, member of Night's Watch, and later its Lord Commander. So how is she more than he is?

She helped Dany to deliver her baby, and she knows that Rhaego is alive, and she was Mirri Maz Duur's teacher in Asshai, alongside with maester Marwyn.

7 hours ago, Faera said:

I'd prefer it if Old Nan was simply turns out to be the lady kissing that man as tall as Hodor (in before "it was Dunk!" :D) in Bran's visions.

That is very unlikely. She came there to become wetnurse for Brandon Stark, which means that shortly prior that she gave birth to her own child. And it is known, that she had at least two sons, and several daughters. So how do you see her having an affair, or anything with Dunk? -

option 1. Her own baby died, and the baby's father left her, she was wetnurse of little Bran, and that's when Dunk and Egg arrived to Winterfell, so she and Dunk either had a relationship, or they just kissed that one time, and then he and Egg continued their journey, and she stayed in Winterfell, eventually got married with one of local man, and with him had her 4+ children;

option 2. Her own baby was alive, she was married and came to Winterfell together with her family, to become wetnurse of little Bran, and when Dunk and Egg came to Winterfell, she had an extra-marrital affair with Dunk, then Dunk left and adulteress-Nan continued happy life with her family, her husband and 4+ children;

option 3. ~ etc.

? :huh:

I get it, that readers want Old Nan to be more significant that she is, that probably she had some sort of exiting past in Winterfell, but most likely that's not how it was. She came to Winterfell from some outside of it place, specifically to be wetnurse for little Bran Stark. The boy died when he was 3 years old. And Nan with her own family remained at Winterfell, and became wetnurse for other Stark children, or served to Starks just as a nanny. Thus her + Dunk is very unlikely.

Nan came to Winterfell to be wetnurse of Brandon Stark, son of Willam Stark and his first wife Lyanne Glover. Lyanne died in childbirth. Her son Brandon died, when he was 3 years old, from chill. Then Willam remarried to Melantha Blackwood, and she gave birth to two of his children - Jocelyn and Edwyle. Willam died when he was in his 30's, after confrontation with Ironborn, and in 211 when The Mystery Knight events were happening, people at Winterfell were making preparations to fight against Dagon Greyjoy. Which means, that at that time, Willam was already married second time, and had his children with Melantha. Which also means, that by that time, Nan was in her late 20's or even in her early or late 30's, and thus she couldn't be that girl, that Bran saw kissing with Dunk. More likely that the girl was one of Willam's younger sisters - Berena or Alysanne, or his daughter Jocelyn, or not a Stark at all, some serving girl (not Nan), or something like that.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

One last note on Seastar/Qaithe and my biggest problem with this theory... the eyes... it is the single most defining feature for both women, but not in the same way. If the author has a character focusing on Qaithe’s eyes to notice how unusually wet they are, they should notice if they are remarkably different colors. It makes no sense that a character wouldn’t notice this remarkable trait.

The fact is, Dany never thought anything about color of Quaithe's eyes, even though her eyes were described in the books twice, wet and shiny in ACOK, and moonlight shining in them in ADWD, and both times their color wasn't given. Though see this? -

ADWD, Melisandre: "The wildling’s own eyes narrowed. Grey eyes, brown eyes; Melisandre could see the color change with each pulse of the ruby."

Quaithe is a shadowbinder, thus she can easily change color of her eyes, and make other people see what isn't really there.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Why the hell didn’t Dany notice her eyes were different colors when she was looking at them

Shadow-camouflage.

Either she used shadow magic, to make her eyes look different colored than her real colors.

Or the color of her eyes is indistinguishable, because her eyes are in the shadows, casted on her face by her mask, and her hood, and thus their actual color isn't seen. So even without usage of magic, color of her sapphire and emerald eyes will be seen as just dark. And it won't even be seen, that they are mismatched.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Faera said:

I know we've discussed the idea of Jon being the 3EC before but I never quite understood how it would work chronologically.

Yup, we start getting into the business of Jon's untapped power or what he may become, and whether he can use the Black Gate to reach Bran in his dreams at a later point in Jon's timeline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I actually like the idea that Old Nan is Shiera Seastar...

She had daughters who moved away, Mel and Quaith... likely sold into slavery. Maybe one is Bloodraven’s and the other Bittersteel’s?

It provides a way for Blackfyre and/or Darksister to be in Winterfell.

It explains why so many of her stories are about the south, the targaryens, and dragons.

It explains why she knows the comet is about dragons... and why she’s also waiting for, the right, Brandon Stark.

the timeline for her arrival works out nicely...

as her few strands of white hair and cataracts disguise her Targaryen features and two colored eyes...

 

I've always been struck by the fact that a total of three people in-story have been described with heart-shaped faces: Shiera, Mel and Jeyne Westerling.

So my secret Shiera Seastar is none other than Maggy the Frog. Mel would be the daughter or granddaughter of SS, which would make Jeyne great-gd to Maggy/Shiera and either niece or grand-niece to Mel.

It would also mean that Mel herself holds the king's blood that she needs to work her magic.

And, of course, none of this means SS can't be Quaith or Nan or the Squisher Queen as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Same could be said about Bloodraven. This is information given about him in ASOIAF books, prior Bran met him:

The story will continue to grow forward in time following the characters in ASoIaF but will also grow backwards to fill in the “historical” holes. That these additions should have overlapping characters/backstories/plots only makes sense.

Quote

AFFC, Sam II:

But aside from that one time, when he was mentioned in the books, he also appeared to Bran in his dreams as a weirwood, starting from AGOT.

I agree... and it helps explain this From Bran 2 GoT:

He raced across the godswood, taking the long way around to avoid the pool where the heart tree grew. The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands.

Quote

If my theory about Quaithe/Shiera/3EC is correct, then let's go thru moments where she was either present on pages of ASOIAF books, or was mentioned there, and let's see how many times it happened:

Again I would suggest for consideration that Qaithe is the Sea (or the refection of celestial bodies in the sea) and Mel the Star, both children of Old Nan, Seastar.

Mel’s real name appears to be Melony:

One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

Melonie - comes from the Greek, melas, meaning Darkness

Made popular in America as a name because of The Sound of Music.

Historically it’s Latin form was used by two saints: Melania the Elder and her granddaughter, Melania the Younger. 

Melania the Elder was a Desert Mother of early Christianity, known as ammas, “spiritual mothers”, these early Christians from the generations following Roman adoption of Christianity, philosophy is remarkably paralleled by Mel. Her husband and two out of three sons died before she was 22.

A quote just for fun:

"In the beginning there are a great many battles and a good deal of suffering for those who are advancing towards God and afterwards, ineffable joy. It is like those who wish to light a fire; at first they are choked by the smoke and cry, and by this means obtain what they seek ... so we must also kindle the divine fire in ourselves through tears and hard work."

Melania the Younger was a descendent of Marcus Aurelius, a famous Roman Emperor. She married her paternal cousin, one of the richest men in the Roman Empire, but their two children died.

Why is Mel so afraid of sleep? 

Is she scared of being visited by a little bird?

Quote
  Reveal hidden contents
  1. AGOT, Bran III: " “I’m flying!” he cried out in delight.

    I’ve noticed, said the three-eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as its pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.

    “What are you doing?” he shrieked.

    The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, “He’s awake, he’s awake, he’s awake.” "

  2. AGOT, Bran VII: " “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.” "

  3. AGOT, Dany IX: "the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky ~ but suddenly the stars were gone ~ Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one ~ After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."
  4. ACOK, Dany I: "The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, “I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons.” "
  5. ACOK, Bran II: "On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords. ~ “Fly or die!” cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. "
  6. ACOK, Dany II: "Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. “Beware,” the woman in the red lacquer mask said.

    “Of whom?”

    “Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power.”

    When Quaithe too was gone, Ser Jorah said, “She speaks truly, my queen . . . though I like her no more than the others.”

    “I do not understand her.” Pyat and Xaro had showered Dany with promises from the moment they first glimpsed her dragons, declaring themselves her loyal servants in all things, but from Quaithe she had gotten only the rare cryptic word. And it disturbed her that she had never seen the woman’s face. Remember Mirri Maz Duur, she told herself. Remember treachery."

  7. ACOK, Bran IV: " “I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,” he said. “It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.”

    “Did the crow have three eyes?”

    Jojen nodded."

  8. ACOK, Dany III: " “A fine trick,” announced Jhogo with admiration.

    “No trick,” a woman said in the Common Tongue.

    Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. “What mean you, my lady?”

    “Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets.”

    Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. “And now?”

    “And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it.”

    “Me?” She laughed. “How could that be?”

    The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

    “She is, and no spawn of shadows may touch her.” Jhogo brushed Quaithe’s fingers away with the handle of his whip.

    The woman took a step backward. “You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all.”

    Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you have me go?” she asked.

    “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

    Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?”

    “Truth,” said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd."

  9. ASOS, Dany I: "And there was Quaithe of the Shadow, that strange woman in the red lacquer mask with all her cryptic counsel. Was she an enemy too, or only a dangerous friend? Dany could not say."

  10. ASOS, Dany III: "Someone was in the cabin with her.

    “Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?” Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. “Jorah, is that you?”

    “They sleep,” a woman said. “They all sleep.” The voice was very close. “Even dragons must sleep.”

    She is standing over me. “Who’s there?” Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. “What do you want of me?”

    “Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

    Quaithe?” Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily. “Khaleesi?” murmured Jhiqui, rubbing her eyes. Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners. There was no sign of a woman in a red lacquer mask. “Khaleesi, are you unwell?” asked Jhiqui.

    “A dream.” Dany shook her head. “I dreamed a dream, no more. Go back to sleep. All of us, go back to sleep.” Yet try as she might, sleep would not come again."

  11. ADWD, Jon I: "The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

    “Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. ~ 

    “Snow,” the moon insisted.

    The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air."

  12. ADWD, Bran I: "How much longer? It’s so cold. Where is the three-eyed crow? ~ "

  13. ADWD, Dany II: "A soft rustle made her open them again. She sat up with a soft splash. “Missandei?” she called. “Irri? Jhiqui?”

    “They sleep,” came the answer.

    A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. “Quaithe? Am I dreaming?” She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. “I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor.”

    “You did not dream. Then or now.”

    “What are you doing here? How did you get past my guards?”

    “I came another way. Your guards never saw me.”

    “If I call out, they will kill you.”

    “They will swear to you that I am not here.”

    Are you here?”

    “No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

    “Reznak? Why should I fear him?” Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. “If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?”

    Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes. “To show you the way.”

    “I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow.” She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. “I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—”

    Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are.”

    “The blood of the dragon.” But my dragons are roaring in the darkness. “I remember the Undying. Child of three, they called me. Three mounts they promised me, three fires, and three treasons. One for blood and one for gold and one for …”

    “Your Grace?” Missandei stood in the door of the queen’s bedchamber, a lantern in her hand. “Who are you talking to?”

    Dany glanced back toward the persimmon tree. There was no woman there. No hooded robe, no lacquer mask, no Quaithe.

    A shadow. A memory. No one."

  14. ADWD, Bran II: " “Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

    “A … crow?” "

  15. ADWD, The Kingbreaker: "Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled."

  16. ADWD, Dany X: "She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

    “Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?”

    Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”"

In 16 chapters, thru POVs of Dany, Bran, once in Jon's wolf-dream, and once in Barristan's. And all those times, when Bran said, that the crow lied to him, in several more chapters.

I think the Moon in Jon’s dream (the old Nan on the Moon!) and that Quaith is her descendent (the fact that she speaks common means she’s almost certainly born/raised Westerosi.

In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children. She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In Bran's dreams, when the 3-eyed crow speaks, there are no quotation marks around his dialog--indicating that they are Bran's own thoughts.

I tried to argue my way into this belief once, but I have to be honest I just don’t like the timetraveling Bran idea no matter how much I wrestled with it. I don’t think it’s impossible, I just think there’s a better explanation. 

I dug up my copy of Game of Thrones from like 20 years ago and the 3EC talks in italics, like the Undying do.

So I’ve come down that I agree it is non-verbal communication, but I think Old Nan at Bran’s bedside makes the most sense to me right now. 

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

When Jon thinks a thought, there are no quotation marks.

When Quaithe visits Dany in dreams, her dialog is in quotes--indicating that it is another person speaking.

But not in on the House of the Undying.

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

3-eyed crow is future Bran. 

Bran is a "villain" the Night's King/3-eyed-crow evil shapechanger, who visits the Isle of Faces and makes the trees no longer have eyes.

With Rob dead, Bran is King of the North and rightful lord of Winterfell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Brynden Rivers ~ Bloodraven ~ weirwood in Bran's dreams.

Shiera Seastar ~ Quaithe ~ 3EC in Bran's dreams.

While he was also the Hand of two Targaryen Kings (Aerys I and Maekar I), Master of whisperers in Small Council of Daeron II, chief of Raven's Teeth, member of Night's Watch, and later its Lord Commander. So how is she more than he is?

She helped Dany to deliver her baby, and she knows that Rhaego is alive, and she was Mirri Maz Duur's teacher in Asshai, alongside with maester Marwyn.

That is very unlikely. She came there to become wetnurse for Brandon Stark, which means that shortly prior that she gave birth to her own child. And it is known, that she had at least two sons, and several daughters. So how do you see her having an affair, or anything with Dunk? -

option 1. Her own baby died, and the baby's father left her, she was wetnurse of little Bran, and that's when Dunk and Egg arrived to Winterfell, so she and Dunk either had a relationship, or they just kissed that one time, and then he and Egg continued their journey, and she stayed in Winterfell, eventually got married with one of local man, and with him had her 4+ children;

option 2. Her own baby was alive, she was married and came to Winterfell together with her family, to become wetnurse of little Bran, and when Dunk and Egg came to Winterfell, she had an extra-marrital affair with Dunk, then Dunk left and adulteress-Nan continued happy life with her family, her husband and 4+ children;

option 3. ~ etc.

? :huh:

I get it, that readers want Old Nan to be more significant that she is, that probably she had some sort of exiting past in Winterfell, but most likely that's not how it was. She came to Winterfell from some outside of it place, specifically to be wetnurse for little Bran Stark. The boy died when he was 3 years old. And Nan with her own family remained at Winterfell, and became wetnurse for other Stark children, or served to Starks just as a nanny. Thus her + Dunk is very unlikely.

Nan came to Winterfell to be wetnurse of Brandon Stark, son of Willam Stark and his first wife Lyanne Glover. Lyanne died in childbirth. Her son Brandon died, when he was 3 years old, from chill. Then Willam remarried to Melantha Blackwood, and she gave birth to two of his children - Jocelyn and Edwyle. Willam died when he was in his 30's, after confrontation with Ironborn, and in 211 when The Mystery Knight events were happening, people at Winterfell were making preparations to fight against Dagon Greyjoy. Which means, that at that time, Willam was already married second time, and had his children with Melantha. Which also means, that by that time, Nan was in her late 20's or even in her early or late 30's, and thus she couldn't be that girl, that Bran saw kissing with Dunk. More likely that the girl was one of Willam's younger sisters - Berena or Alysanne, or his daughter Jocelyn, or not a Stark at all, some serving girl (not Nan), or something like that.

The fact is, Dany never thought anything about color of Quaithe's eyes, even though her eyes were described in the books twice, wet and shiny in ACOK, and moonlight shining in them in ADWD, and both times their color wasn't given. Though see this? -

ADWD, Melisandre: "The wildling’s own eyes narrowed. Grey eyes, brown eyes; Melisandre could see the color change with each pulse of the ruby."

Quaithe is a shadowbinder, thus she can easily change color of her eyes, and make other people see what isn't really there.

Shadow-camouflage.

Either she used shadow magic, to make her eyes look different colored than her real colors.

Or the color of her eyes is indistinguishable, because her eyes are in the shadows, casted on her face by her mask, and her hood, and thus their actual color isn't seen. So even without usage of magic, color of her sapphire and emerald eyes will be seen as just dark. And it won't even be seen, that they are mismatched.

Could you explain the underlined?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

While I can't agree, and do personally think your just reading too much into it, I have to admit you do a really nice job presenting the theory.

That’s ok. Disagreements make the world go round! Thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, zandru said:

Could you point me to where this "fact" is documented? All I recall is that Ramsey "took the women" and killed all the men. I didn't see any indication of names, and Nan was old as Maester Aemon, thus less likely to survive the trip. Probably didn't provide much sport for Ramsey's "girls", either.

Yep.  The reason Ramsey took the women became clear when we learned how he names his dogs and of Kyra's fate: they were taken for "sport", i.e. rape, torture and murder.  There is simply no reason for Ramsey to take Old Nan, nor for any of his men to care for an old and frail woman on the long journey to the Dreadfort.  There is no reason to take Beth Cassell either, unless Ramsey is even worse than he already appears to be, but she would have more chance of surviving the jounrney with assistance from the adult women than Old Nan.  However, the most likely scenario is that they are both dead and only the young and / or pretty ones were taken on Ramsey's instructions.  His men know him and what his command meant (and it didn't mean the child or the crone).  If the appendix accurately reflects who was taken to the Dreadfort I really can't see the purpose of it.

12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If I was a casual reader which most readers of ASOIAF are, then my reaction would be, "huh?" because Shiera is only mentioned once in the 5 main books and then only in passing and certainly not memorably.

Yes indeed.  And Bloodraven is not mentioned at all (caveat: to date).  The main story stands on it's own without the novellas and thinking that central characters and plot elements in ASOIAF are introduced not in story but in different works seems a mistake to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Melonie - comes from the Greek, melas, meaning Darkness

Melanie would mean darkness

Melonie would mean apple, or sweet

 

Quote
She is not breathing. Dany listened to the silence. None of them are breathing, and they do not move, and those eyes see nothing. Could it be that the Undying Ones were dead?
Her answer was a whisper as thin as a mouse's whisker. . . . we live . . . live . . . live . . . it sounded. Myriad other voices whispered echoes. . . . and know . . . know . . . know . . . know . . .

So, the undying are inside Dany's brain when they speak, but Quaithe is not--the undying are speaking through the weirwood telepathically, whereas Quaithe is using a glass candle?  When Dany is high on shade of the evening, is she technically part to the hivemind?

 

19 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I just don’t like the timetraveling Bran idea no matter how much I wrestled with it. I don’t think it’s impossible, I just think there’s a better explanation. 

It is totally a Chekov's Gun, you know he has rewritten history.  It is not a coincidence that crippled boys named Brandon appeared in the distant past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

While he was also the Hand of two Targaryen Kings (Aerys I and Maekar I), Master of whisperers in Small Council of Daeron II, chief of Raven's Teeth, member of Night's Watch, and later its Lord Commander. So how is she more than he is?

I have no idea what you mean here... I don’t understand the question.

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She helped Dany to deliver her baby, and she knows that Rhaego is alive, and she was Mirri Maz Duur's teacher in Asshai, alongside with maester Marwyn.

And you lost me... sry

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That is very unlikely. She came there to become wetnurse for Brandon Stark, which means that shortly prior that she gave birth to her own child. And it is known, that she had at least two sons, and several daughters. So how do you see her having an affair, or anything with Dunk? -

 

I’m eyeing that pregnant woman seeking vengeance as Nan more than the brown haired little one kissing the probably Dunk. It could have been a Stark or a Blackwood easily, and we know Dunk kisses the future Lady Lannister, and defeated Lord Baratheon in a duel, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he pissed off some other Major Lords along the way too.

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The fact is, Dany never thought anything about color of Quaithe's eyes, even though her eyes were described in the books twice, wet and shiny in ACOK, and moonlight shining in them in ADWD, and both times their color wasn't given. Though see this? -

That’s the problem, if the same feature is used to identify two characters isn’t the same then they are probably different characters.

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

ADWD, Melisandre: "The wildling’s own eyes narrowed. Grey eyes, brown eyes; Melisandre could see the color change with each pulse of the ruby."

Shadowbinders wear masks, Mel’s mask is a glamor, indicated by her ruby neckless. 

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe is a shadowbinder, thus she can easily change color of her eyes, and make other people see what isn't really there.

It does appear possible, but Why would she bother? It clearly isn’t easy to make glamors... as Mel explains, she just tries to make it look easy for effect.

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Shadow-camouflage.

She’s wearing an actual mask... 

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Either she used shadow magic, to make her eyes look different colored than her real colors.

Or the color of her eyes is indistinguishable, because her eyes are in the shadows, casted on her face by her mask, and her hood, and thus their actual color isn't seen. So even without usage of magic, color of her sapphire and emerald eyes will be seen as just dark. And it won't even be seen, that they are mismatched.

Wait, so you are trying to tell me Dany could see how wet Qaithe’s eyes were, but couldn’t tell the color? 

Sounds like a stretch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×