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LiveFirstDieLater

The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

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40 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yep.  The reason Ramsey took the women became clear when we learned how he names his dogs and of Kyra's fate: they were taken for "sport", i.e. rape, torture and murder.  There is simply no reason for Ramsey to take Old Nan, nor for any of his men to care for an old and frail woman on the long journey to the Dreadfort.  There is no reason to take Beth Cassell either, unless Ramsey is even worse than he already appears to be, but she would have more chance of surviving the jounrney with assistance from the adult women than Old Nan.  However, the most likely scenario is that they are both dead and only the young and / or pretty ones were taken on Ramsey's instructions.  His men know him and what his command meant (and it didn't mean the child or the crone).  If the appendix accurately reflects who was taken to the Dreadfort I really can't see the purpose of it.

You are making assumptions, we do not know what happened to Nan except that we heard women and children were taken to the Dreadfort.

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Yes indeed.  And Bloodraven is not mentioned at all (caveat: to date).  The main story stands on it's own without the novellas and thinking that central characters and plot elements in ASOIAF are introduced not in story but in different works seems a mistake to me.

This is just wrong. Bloodraven is mentioned once in Feast and Twice in Dance...

 

Spoiler

 

"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

You are entitled to an opinion, but a prequel series to provide backstory on setting and characters is a pretty standard literary method...

Its clearly happening here, wether you like it or not, the Golden Company has once again crossed the narrow sea, and even I don’t doubt that the pale lord in the Weirwood is Brynden Rivers.

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27 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Melanie would mean darkness

Melonie would mean apple, or sweet

Where did do you find the apple derivation? What language is it from if not Greek, I’m genuinely curious...

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So, the undying are inside Dany's brain when they speak, but Quaithe is not--the undying are speaking through the weirwood telepathically, whereas Quaithe is using a glass candle?  When Dany is high on shade of the evening, is she technically part to the hivemind?

The Weirwood paste and the Shade of the evening appear to be functionally the same.

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It is totally a Chekov's Gun, you know he has rewritten history.  It is not a coincidence that crippled boys named Brandon appeared in the distant past.

Crippled?

There are a lot of Brandons in Stark history, but is there evidence for them being crippled?

There are a lot of Aegons and Walders too... I need more to go on to convince me of time travel.

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5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Why the hell didn’t Dany notice her eyes were different colors when she was looking at them

Cause it was hard to see the color in the shadow of the mask, especially since they were watery? 

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

While I can't agree, and do personally think your just reading too much into it, I have to admit you do a really nice job presenting the theory.

:agree:

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14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Cause it was hard to see the color in the shadow of the mask, especially since they were watery? 

I cannot imagine someone’s eyes where I could see them well enough to tell they are watery but can’t notice they are different colors... especially if she was holding my wrist.

And eye color is sort of a thing in this series.

So, maybe it’s just me, but the fact that Qaithe’s eyes are used repeatedly as her sole identifying feature, while Shiera Seastar also had unique eyes, and this little incredibly obvious and remarkable trait wasn’t mentioned at all, rules her out fairly definitely.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Where did do you find the apple derivation? What language is it from if not Greek, I’m genuinely curious...

The Weirwood paste and the Shade of the evening appear to be functionally the same.

Crippled?

There are a lot of Brandons in Stark history, but is there evidence for them being crippled?

There are a lot of Aegons and Walders too... I need more to go on to convince me of time travel.

Latin

mēlō m (genitive melōnis);

  1. An apple-shaped melon.

Italian

melo m (plural meli)

  1. apple tree, apple

Latin

mel n (genitive mellis); third declension

  1. honey quotations ▼
  2. (figuratively) sweetness, pleasantness quotations ▼
  3. (figuratively, term of endearment) darling, sweet, honey

 

I think everything Old Nan says is true.  That many or all the Brandons are one person.

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"No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them,

until a young boy helped him erect one so strong and cunningly made that it could defy their gales. The boy grew to be Brandon the Builder

You are correct that no mention is made of him being crippled, that fan art of him being carried on a litter was stuck in my head. 

However, Ned said he could raise castles, Nan said all Brandon's are one person, Brandon the Builder was taken to a secret place and learned their secret language, Bran was taken to Bloodraven's secret cave and is learning the secret language, Bran expressed a desire to go to the Isle of Faces, and to remove the faces from the trees. 

 

The Citadel was created by "A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window," ("The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few")  Peremore was either a greenseer or Bran bodysnatched him to create the Citadel.

perimō (present infinitive perimere,

  1. I annihilate, extinguish, destroy
  2. I hinder, prevent
  3. I kill, slay

Bran the Builder built the first stone Highttower, so he was there.  What did Peremore want to annihilate?  What does Marwyn say, "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons"

Bran thinks the trees ought not to have eyes, goes back in time to invent science, science kills god.

 

 

On an unrelated note this passage appears word for word in both Feast Samwell I and Dance Jon II

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"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books … either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or … well, it could be that there are no such books and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King … we say that you're the nine-hundred-and-ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during—"
 
"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

That can't be a coincidence right?

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3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Could you explain the underlined?

:blush: That's my theory, not facts, but it is based on text from books.

Quaithe warned Dany about all people, with whom she will meet soon - Tyrion, Victarion, Moqorro, fAegon, Jon Connington, Martell Prince. Only the last one is questionable, the perfumed seneschal, but it's unlikely that that is maester Marwyn. Thus Marwyn is the only one, out of Dany's visitors/people with whom she will meet in her nearest future, about whom Quaithe didn't warned her. Why was he an exception? Maybe because Marwyn and Quaithe are on the same side?

Marwyn was Mirri's teacher, when she was studying magic in Asshai.

AGOT, Dany VII:

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When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. “A maester?”

“Marwyn, he named himself,” the woman replied in the Common Tongue. “From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech.”

“A maester in Asshai,” Ser Jorah mused. “Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?”

“A chain so tight it was like to choke him, Iron Lord, with links of many metals.”

And Mirri knows shadow magic and blood magic.

AGOT, Dany VIII:

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Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. “There is a spell.” Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. “But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands.

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The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving.

Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone.

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Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

Quaithe is a shadowbinder. But if she is Shiera Seastar, and I'm 99% sure that she is, then she's also a bloodmage. Because Shiera, same as her mother Serenei, was user of blood magic, and also used shadow magic.

The Sworn Sword:

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"You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?"

"Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

The Mystery Knight:

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Dunk whirled. Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder.

~

Plumm guided him across the yard. This close, there was something queer about the cast of Ser Maynard's features. The longer Dunk looked, the less he seemed to see.

Dancing with demons - shadowbinding. Bathing in blood - blood magic.

Melisandre in ADWD used ruby bracelet with Rattleshirt's shadow in it, to make Mance look like Rattleshirt. And in The Mystery Knight, Shiera either made for Bloodraven a moonstone brooch, magical artifact with Maynard's shadow in it, or she taught Bloodraven how to use shadow magic, and he made that shadow-camouflage himself, and stored the shadow into the moonstone brooch. Mel's rubies were pulsing, and Shiera's moonstone glowed. Otherwise how did Dunk saw that stone in a darkness, under the rain? Thus the shadow and lights were stored in that moonstone.

ADWD, Melisandre:

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Melisandre felt the warmth in the hollow of her throat as her ruby stirred at the closeness of its slave.

~

In the black iron fetter about his wrist, the ruby seemed to pulse.

~

Must I wear the bloody bones as well?”

“The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that.”

~

The wildling’s own eyes narrowed. Grey eyes, brown eyes; Melisandre could see the color change with each pulse of the ruby.

~

The ruby on the wildling’s wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

It's a logical assumption, that when Mirri was in Asshai, Quaithe was her teacher, thru whom she learned blood magic and shadowbinding. And thus thru their disciple, Quaithe and Marwyn met each other.

So when Dany got hurt by Dothraki, had an internal bleeding, and her baby's life was in danger, Mirri summoned there both of her ex-teachers, Marwyn and Quaithe, to help her save Dany and her baby.

Read Dany's penultimate chapter in AGOT, IX. 

Long hall, with stone arches, cold and death behind/above (placenta, that got damaged and bleeded), and red door ahead/below, is birth canal, thru witch the baby is born. Running thru that hall, leaving bloody footprints behind, and flying, after going out of red door, is being born. During her fevered dream, Dany experienced both, what her own body felt, and what experienced her unborn baby. She was herself, giving birth to her baby, while maester Marwyn and Quaithe assisted her with labor, and she was Rhaego, inside her body. Probably they used on her some sort of magic, to temporarely connect Dany's and Rhaego's soul, to prevent him from dying unborn, that's the meaning of "a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness". Dany saw Marwyn first as Drogo, when he held her and stopped her bleeding with something hot, and then as Jorah, when he was "leaving" (actually him and Quaithe weren't there physically, they just used some magic, to appear there, and then disappeared the same way). Then after Marwyn "faded", Mirri or Quaithe used on Dany nipple stimulation, which is one of natural methods for stimulating labor. This releases oxytocin, a hormone that helps contractions to start. Then Quaithe was urging Dany to push, with that "Faster, faster". She was seen by Dany, as ghost kings with Valyrian steel blades, and silver, gold and platinum white hair (same as hair color of Shiera), and blue and green eyes (because jade, tourmaline, opals and amethysts are blue and green stones, same as color of Shiera's mismatched eyes). And then, after the final push, her baby was born - " “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back (down her back), and she felt her skin tear open (her skin got torn not on her back, but down there) and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings (those wings appeared not out of her back, and there was no actual wings, it was just a metaphor for dragonseed that was born)." Dany experienced what is called back labor, that's when the baby goes thru birth canal, with its face pressed to the mother's spine, which causes the mother to feel as if though she's getting hacked with knifes from inside. And after that Quaithe stayed with Dany for a long time, and Dany saw her as a whispering stars. And afterwards she forgot what actually happened, either because of her state during labor, or because they gave her some medicine. And then the baby was kidnapped, either by Dothraki (Khal Jhago or Khal Pono), or by Quaithe herself. This kidnapping was one of three treasons, the one for blood. Either Quaithe/Shiera has stolen Dany's baby, because she needed his dragon blood. Or Dothraki stole Rhaego, to save him from his maegi mother, that doomed their Khal, and thus they weren't going to let her to corrupt their Stallion too, with her evil magic.

I think I'm right about what happened. Though we will see that in next book.

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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I cannot imagine someone’s eyes where I could see them well enough to tell they are watery but can’t notice they are different colors... especially if she was holding my wrist.

And eye color is sort of a thing in this series.

So, maybe it’s just me, but the fact that Qaithe’s eyes are used repeatedly as her sole identifying feature, while Shiera Seastar also had unique eyes, and this little incredibly obvious and remarkable trait wasn’t mentioned at all, rules her out fairly definitely.

Brienne saw Sandor at the Quiet Isle, but couldn't see his burn scars. Granted the first time was at a bit of a distance, and he was wearing a hooded cloak and a scarf across his lower face, but dude was waiting tables the second time. 

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3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Where did do you find the apple derivation? What language is it from if not Greek, I’m genuinely curious...

Melonie is also melon in Polish.

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Cause it was hard to see the color in the shadow of the mask, especially since they were watery? 

Don't forget that she also was always wearing a hood. So Dany didn't saw color of her hair, and that hood casted even more shadows on her face. And in a bad lightning, both blue/sapphire and green/emerald color, will look just as some dark color. And thus it will be hard to notice in the shadows, that her eyes are differently colored.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I cannot imagine someone’s eyes where I could see them well enough to tell they are watery but can’t notice they are different colors... especially if she was holding my wrist.

Dany was above, sitting on a horse, while Quaithe was standing on the ground, so they weren't on the eye level, or even close to each other's faces.

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“I want to see.”

“Then you must.” The Dothraki offered a hand down. When she took it, he pulled her up onto his horse and sat her in front of him, where she could see over the heads of the crowd.

So Quaithe is wearing a mask, and a hood, that casts shadows on her eyes. And Dany is above her, and at least a few feet away from her. How could she see color of her shadowed eyes? That's impossible. And she saw that her eyes were wet and shiny, only because the fire's flikering got reflected in them. Could also be, that her eyes were watering a bit, just because she was looking at the fire for too long. And Dany saw Quaithe's eyes for a few seconds, when Quaithe started to talk to her, and Dany looked down, and Quaithe's face was upturned towards Dany. Until she started to explain to her about that mage, and turned her face towards him, and thus away from Dany.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

while Shiera Seastar also had unique eyes, and this little incredibly obvious and remarkable trait wasn’t mentioned at all, rules her out fairly definitely.

You're forgetting that shadowbinders can change their looks, and also looks of other people. For example Melisandre made Mance's brown eyes, to change their color to Rattleshirt's grey eyes - "The wildling’s own eyes narrowed. Grey eyes, brown eyes; Melisandre could see the color change with each pulse of the ruby." Color of Maynard Plumm's eyes wasn't described in The Mystery Knight, but it's obvious that they weren't red, as was Bloodraven's single eye.

Quaithe's name written backwards - ehtiauq - in Azerbaijani means - maybe.

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4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:
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While he was also the Hand of two Targaryen Kings (Aerys I and Maekar I), Master of whisperers in Small Council of Daeron II, chief of Raven's Teeth, member of Night's Watch, and later its Lord Commander. So how is she more than he is?

I have no idea what you mean here... I don’t understand the question.

You wrote about fingers in too many pies, if Shiera is both Quaithe and the 3EC. So I replied, that Bloodraven's fingers were in even more pies than Shiera's :) metaphorically ^_^

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:
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She helped Dany to deliver her baby, and she knows that Rhaego is alive, and she was Mirri Maz Duur's teacher in Asshai, alongside with maester Marwyn.

And you lost me... sry

I wrote explanation on page 3, in reply to post of aryagonnakill#2. Don't know how to link the post here :unsure:

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I’m eyeing that pregnant woman seeking vengeance as Nan more than the brown haired little one kissing the probably Dunk. It could have been a Stark or a Blackwood easily

That pregnant woman is (probably) Alysanne Blackwood, second out of three wives of Cregan Stark, that after the Dance of the Dragons, served for one day as the Hand of Aegon III. She asked Gods to give her son, and Gods gave her four daughters (Sarra, Alys, Raya, Mariah), so it was a sign to her, that the Gods don't support her idea of revenge. Also seems that probably all four girls died young, and their mother also died, probably in childbirth, because none of those four married, while their father Cregan later married with Lynara Stark (probably his cousin).

Also based on what Bran saw, in the beginning gaps between visions were shorter, and further the visions went, the bigger were becoming those gaps.

Shortly after Robert's Rebellion, when Ned just recently returned home with little Jon. 284.

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… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the gods-wood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”

Probably a decade before that, in 270's or late 260's. Probably Lyanna and Benjen.

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Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. “You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. “It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?” She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

Probably Alysanne Blackwood, sometime after the Dance of the Dragons, in 129+.

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After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.

So based on time frame, this is probably Jacaerys Velaryon, that made with Cregan Stark the Pact of Ice and Fire. He was described as a strapping lad, which means big and strong. And the girl is probably bastard half-sister of Cregan Stark. According to Mushroom, Jacaerys and that girl secretly married, and his dragon Vermax laid eggs in crypts under Winterfell. 129 AC or a bit earlier.

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Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor.

And this is probably Brandon Snow, bastard half-brother of last King in The North Torrhen Stark. He was planning to go and kill Aegon I's dragons. Years BC, over 300 years ago.

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A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows.

And this is probably Night's Queen, and her lover Stark lord, that was the thirteenth Lord Commander of Night's Watch.

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The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

“No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It does appear possible, but Why would she bother? It clearly isn’t easy to make glamors... as Mel explains, she just tries to make it look easy for effect.

Mel is a novice compared to Shiera. In the beginning of her career, Mel was just a slave, while even Shiera's mother was a sorceress. Thus Shiera had a natural gift.

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait, so you are trying to tell me Dany could see how wet Qaithe’s eyes were, but couldn’t tell the color? 

Sounds like a stretch.

It could be seen, that the eyes are wet, because of fire flickering in them, but their color will still be indistinguishable. There was happening a fire show in front of them. So fire made her eyes to water, and her eyes were shining, because the fire's light was reflected in them. The fire was reflected in her pupils, and by her "tears" (water also reflect light). And irises don't reflect light. So her pupils were shiny, but her irises were still dark, and thus their color was indistinguishable.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Melonie is also melon in Polish.

Don't forget that she also was always wearing a hood. So Dany didn't saw color of her hair, and that hood casted even more shadows on her face. And in a bad lightning, both blue/sapphire and green/emerald color, will look just as some dark color. And thus it will be hard to notice in the shadows, that her eyes are differently colored.

Dany was above, sitting on a horse, while Quaithe was standing on the ground, so they weren't on the eye level, or even close to each other's faces.

So Quaithe is wearing a mask, and a hood, that casts shadows on her eyes. And Dany is above her, and at least a few feet away from her. How could she see color of her shadowed eyes? That's impossible. And she saw that her eyes were wet and shiny, only because the fire's flikering got reflected in them. Could also be, that her eyes were watering a bit, just because she was looking at the fire for too long. And Dany saw Quaithe's eyes for a few seconds, when Quaithe started to talk to her, and Dany looked down, and Quaithe's face was upturned towards Dany. Until she started to explain to her about that mage, and turned her face towards him, and thus away from Dany.

You're forgetting that shadowbinders can change their looks, and also looks of other people. For example Melisandre made Mance's brown eyes, to change their color to Rattleshirt's grey eyes - "The wildling’s own eyes narrowed. Grey eyes, brown eyes; Melisandre could see the color change with each pulse of the ruby." Color of Maynard Plumm's eyes wasn't described in The Mystery Knight, but it's obvious that they weren't red, as was Bloodraven's single eye.

Quaithe's name written backwards - ehtiauq - in Azerbaijani means - maybe.

Wow this is some high level fan fiction. I do not agree that Martin is writing words backwards to name his people. Everything else is speculation at best. 

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe

I got a new lead on the name origin of Quaithe.  In England there are massive neolithic stone structures called dolmens or quoits (pronounced "kwaits").  They may have been used for burial chambers, astronomy, human sacrifice, or religious ceremonies, or all of those.

(Quoits is also a ring-toss game.)

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14 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You are making assumptions, we do not know what happened to Nan except that we heard women and children were taken to the Dreadfort.

This is just wrong. Bloodraven is mentioned once in Feast and Twice in Dance...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

You are entitled to an opinion, but a prequel series to provide backstory on setting and characters is a pretty standard literary method...

Its clearly happening here, wether you like it or not, the Golden Company has once again crossed the narrow sea, and even I don’t doubt that the pale lord in the Weirwood is Brynden Rivers.

You are right that I am making assumptions about who Ramsay took and why.  When we see Theon and Kyra and learn the names of Ramsay's dogs and how they got those names it seems a fair assumption to make.  What use several  children from WF or an old decrepit woman would be to him is not clear.  Luwin got a spear through the back and sacking a castle (or holdfast/village/town/city) is usually a savage business and the sack of WF looked no different.

Thank you for pointing out that Bloodraven is in fact mentioned though I have to point out that there is no particular reason to attach any significance to him from this reference, to see him as a character who might appear in story or even to notice the reference at all other than as a passing nod to past history and world building like to Mad Lady Lothston.

Of course a prequel series that leads into the main series sets the scene and introduces characters, The Hobbit is not actually essential reading to understand The Lord of the Rings but certain characters and elements flow.  The obvious difference is that GRRM started writing side novels dealing with different stories when he got bored with / hit writer's block with ASOIAF not as an introduction to read before tackling ASOIAF (as a comparison I love the Silmarillion but it doesn't inform TLOTR, everyone reads it afterwards and JRRT never published it his son did after his death).  Reading The Hedge Knight or The She-Wolves of Winterfell or any of the companion novels won't develop an understanding of the story of ASOIAF, only reading the main story itself will, the rest is world building and easter eggs at best.

The Golden Company are clearly introduced on page and in the context of a whole series of mercenary companies.  We have no doubts about who they are or what they want.  At best I'll agree that as GRRM has taken so long to write ASOIAF he is now in the process of releasing material in the companion novels that appears to inform the main story when in reality he should have finished the main story and then writtten or released his companion novels so that those novels were informed by the main story rather than the other way round.  It's backwards and from there springs the whole issue as to whether a character in ASOIAF who we know precious little about (the 3EC) might be a character barely mentioned in passing in story and likely missed or forgotten by most of the readership (Bloodraven).  Maybe Bloodraven's back story and relevance will be introduced more in ASOIAF so that these discussions are on the money but in story Bran has been sent dreams by the 3EC since AGOT and Jojen has been sent to lead him to the 3EC; the sinister(?) or dupilcitous or ruthless nature of Bloodraven and according to certain theories the 3EC or his imposter is not established in story and I'm inclined to discount it until it is (but you knew that already :P).

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So...another joke thread, only this time it makes up a ridiculous theory for comedic effect rather than turning a simple fact into a theory?


 

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9 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

Wow this is some high level fan fiction. I do not agree that Martin is writing words backwards to name his people. Everything else is speculation at best. 

Then I have a surprise for you:

Sarella

Alleras

You didn't noticed? Marwyn's acolyte, the one nicknamed Sphinx, is actually a woman, fourth daughter of Oberyn Martell, Sarella Sand.

Her mother, the trader captain of Feathered Kiss, from the Summer Isles.

And this is what Alleras said about "himself": "And I am no lord's son, I've told you that. My mother was a trader." That's because she's a lord's daughter, not a son. ^_^

7 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I got a new lead on the name origin of Quaithe.  In England there are massive neolithic stone structures called dolmens or quoits (pronounced "kwaits").  They may have been used for burial chambers, astronomy, human sacrifice, or religious ceremonies, or all of those.

There's also another connection between Shiera and burial places.

Shiera is a 3EC (probably). In Irish mythology there's a crow goddess Morrigan, who is also a queen of phantoms (shadowbinder), and a prophet that foretells death. Mor in Welsh and Old Breton means the sea, same as Shiera's name Seastar. Morrigan is also associated with the Banshee, which means woman of the fairy mound. Those mounds are called barrows, kurgans, or tumuli. It's a mound of earth and stones raised over a grave or graves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Then I have a surprise for you:

Sarella

Alleras

You didn't noticed? Marwyn's acolyte, the one nicknamed Sphinx, is actually a woman, fourth daughter of Oberyn Martell, Sarella Sand.

Her mother, the trader captain of Feathered Kiss, from the Summer Isles.

And this is what Alleras said about "himself": "And I am no lord's son, I've told you that. My mother was a trader." That's because she's a lord's daughter, not a son. ^_^

There's also another connection between Shiera and burial places.

Shiera is a 3EC (probably). In Irish mythology there's a crow goddess Morrigan, who is also a queen of phantoms (shadowbinder), and a prophet that foretells death. Mor in Welsh and Old Breton means the sea, same as Shiera's name Seastar. Morrigan is also associated with the Banshee, which means woman of the fairy mound. Those mounds are called barrows, kurgans, or tumuli. It's a mound of earth and stones raised over a grave or graves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

I know about the Sarella name flip because that was developed within the story. Sarella and Alleras makes sense because it is not an obscure real wordl reference of some obscure language that has nothing to do with this story. Maybe if it happened to naming Quaithe then maybe, but it doesn't. These two characters are totally unrelated. Sorry, I really do not want to sound rude, but you are grasping terribly at straws to maybe make yourself sound to be more "right" than other posters. 

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19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Brienne saw Sandor at the Quiet Isle, but couldn't see his burn scars. Granted the first time was at a bit of a distance, and he was wearing a hooded cloak and a scarf across his lower face, but dude was waiting tables the second time. 

But presumably still wearing the monks robes and cowl, not to mention he was just one of many novices clearing plates, it’s not clear how close Brienne was to him... but he certainly wasn’t holding her wrist while speaking to her, so I’m not sure it’s at all a fair comparison.

I get that a lot of people are sold on Qaithe-Seastar, but the popular opinion used to be Qaithe was Ashara Dayne (also connected to stars and supposedly dove into the sea to kill herself) so I’m not sure I find the stars/wet eyes a sure fire connection. 

But I really can’t get over how you could tell someone’s eyes are wet (wetter than normal) but not notice the colors are different. And to be fair, I thought it was a problem when people suggested Ashara too (haunting purple eyes) but at least there are examples of purple eyes being mistaken for blue or near black... 

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@LiveFirstDieLater

It's good that you're not sold on Quaithe/Ashara Dayne. Because Ashara Dayne is Jyana Reed, wife of Howland Reed, and mother of Meera and Jojen Reed, and Edric Ned Dayne from Starfall. ^_^ Or not.

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23 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Latin

mēlō m (genitive melōnis);

  1. An apple-shaped melon.

Italian

melo m (plural meli)

  1. apple tree, apple

Latin

mel n (genitive mellis); third declension

  1. honey quotations ▼
  2. (figuratively) sweetness, pleasantness quotations ▼
  3. (figuratively, term of endearment) darling, sweet, honey

Always good to learn! I find the Greek meaning fits Mel better, darkness, but who knows, maybe it’s all about the melons...

Quote

I think everything Old Nan says is true.  That many or all the Brandons are one person.

Well we know she isn’t right literally all the time. But I do agree that she seems to be right about a lot of stuff, and seems to know more history than the Maesters, even 

 Nan contradicts herself about when she came to winterfell...

And I doubt Dagmar Cleftjaw cannot be killed.

while I was intrigued by the notion of Brandons being connected through time originally as well, I think it falls apart once you start thinking about it... I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I don’t think it’s likely or terribly satisfying.

Quote

You are correct that no mention is made of him being crippled, that fan art of him being carried on a litter was stuck in my head. 

However, Ned said he could raise castles, Nan said all Brandon's are one person, Brandon the Builder was taken to a secret place and learned their secret language, Bran was taken to Bloodraven's secret cave and is learning the secret language, Bran expressed a desire to go to the Isle of Faces, and to remove the faces from the trees. 

He also said he could convert to the faith of the seven and be High Septon... I actually think the sneaky important bit about his paragraph is that we learn Bran can’t have children anymore.

Nan never said all the Brandon’s are one person, Cat said she gets confused sometimes, neither of these sound like convincing explanations to me, I find it more probable that she has been waiting for the right Brandon Stark, just like Bloodraven.

And I don’t think for a second Nan gets the story wrong... the tale of Brandon the builder is the tale of the last hero and is probably a story about a crow too. She isn’t nearly as confused as Bran thinks.

Also, be aware that there may be a pun on raise castles... raze castles... or raise the wall? And raze the Wall?

It’s probably related to the “walls” instead of “Wall” in the Nights Watch Oath, and that Brandon the Builder is credited for the construction of the Hightower on Battle Isle, Winterfell, and Storms End. 

The Last Hero sought out the Children and learned their language.

TWoIaF tells us Brandon learned their language as well to try and “raise” the wall.

The Last Hero hoped the magic of the Children might succeed where the armies of Men had failed.

The Nights Watch supposedly fought the battle for the dawn and pushed the Other’s back ending the Long Night. I think this is a lie, after all, all crows are liars.

The Last hero fought with a dragonsteel sword, long before the founding of Valyria.

Azor Ahai forges lightbringer in Nissa Nissa’s heart, presumably killing her.

The Night King chased a corpse bride, loved her, gave up his soul, and crowned her his queen (Nissa Nissa). 

I believe all these stories are about the same man, the OG, Brandon Stark.

Its not that all the Brandon’s are the same, but that all the stories are about Brandon...

Quote

The Citadel was created by "A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window," ("The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few")  Peremore was either a greenseer or Bran bodysnatched him to create the Citadel.

If I had to guess, there is a Weirwood on Battle Isle inside the Hightower. So it wouldn’t surprise me at all if there were Hightower Greenseers... maybe that includes the Mad Maid.

But given that this is supposedly the same generation as the construction of the Hightower, Long Night, founding of the Nights Watch, and founding of the Citadel, I would imagine that they are all related.

While the role, religion, and beliefs of Maester’s has changed a lot over the years, it’s worth noting that their founding long predates the Andals. 

Quote

perimō (present infinitive perimere,

  1. I annihilate, extinguish, destroy
  2. I hinder, prevent
  3. I kill, slay

Bran the Builder built the first stone Highttower, so he was there.  What did Peremore want to annihilate?  What does Marwyn say, "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons"

Bran thinks the trees ought not to have eyes, goes back in time to invent science, science kills god.

 

I still don’t by the time travel, and would much prefer if the old tales are simply reflected again instead of people hopping back and forth.

Quote

On an unrelated note this passage appears word for word in both Feast Samwell I and Dance Jon II

That can't be a coincidence right?

It’s about the unreliability of the histories we’ve been told, especially in regard to Brandon the Builder, the Night’s King, and Old Star-Eyes (who I suspect was an Other wandering Westeros before the Wall went up)... the list of Lord Commanders only goes back 600ish names instead of a thousand... Again, there is a lack of written history from before the Andal’s came.

But the key detail to me that was repeated wasn’t part of your quote, the Last Hero fought with a Dragonsteel sword long before the founding of Valyria.

Of course this screams Dawn.

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7 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But presumably still wearing the monks robes and cowl, not to mention he was just one of many novices clearing plates, it’s not clear how close Brienne was to him... but he certainly wasn’t holding her wrist while speaking to her, so I’m not sure it’s at all a fair comparison.

I get that a lot of people are sold on Qaithe-Seastar, but the popular opinion used to be Qaithe was Ashara Dayne (also connected to stars and supposedly dove into the sea to kill herself) so I’m not sure I find the stars/wet eyes a sure fire connection. 

But I really can’t get over how you could tell someone’s eyes are wet (wetter than normal) but not notice the colors are different. And to be fair, I thought it was a problem when people suggested Ashara too (haunting purple eyes) but at least there are examples of purple eyes being mistaken for blue or near black... 

Ashara's eyes are haunting, not wet like the sea and shiny like a star. ;)

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