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Dunk is not true knight. How does it affect story?


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6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Aegon V, who was already one of the weakest kings in the Targaryen dynasty.

I wouldn't say that at all. He faced a lot of opposition, but only because he attempted to make real change. Certainly, compared to his successors he was far from weak, and there were plenty that preceded him that were weaker.

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23 hours ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

If someone reveals the truth about Dunk's knighthood how will it affect story? For example, Manfred Dondarrion visits Jena, wife of Prince Baelor in Red Keep and Aegon V begins to question Dunk's knighthood after Manfred reveals that he doesn't remember Dunk serving Arlan. If Aegon V reveals truth everyone will mock him since he made a commoner Lord Commander of Kingsguard.

 

Thing is it won't matter, Egg will figure it out, then outmanoeuvre Dunk into knighting him and by doing so securing Dunk's knighthood - questioning it would be to question the King's/Prince's knighthood (which isn't smart).

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If Dunk is not a knight then Barristan Selmy is probably telling the truth when he tells Dany he is a squire.  

Usually a squire is knighted by the knight for whom he squires.  That means Egg was likely knighted by Dunk.  So Egg is not a knight.  Egg knighted Barristan Selmy at a tourney after Barristan unseated Dunk.  So Barristan is not a knight, either.  

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4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Thing is it won't matter, Egg will figure it out, then outmanoeuvre Dunk into knighting him and by doing so securing Dunk's knighthood - questioning it would be to question the King's/Prince's knighthood (which isn't smart).

I think it is important and more in keeping with his character for Dunk to confess to Egg that he isn’t now a knight more rather than have Egg figures it out himself.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

If Dunk is not a knight then Barristan Selmy is probably telling the truth when he tells Dany he is a squire.  

Usually a squire is knighted by the knight for whom he squires.  That means Egg was likely knighted by Dunk.  So Egg is not a knight.  Egg knighted Barristan Selmy at a tourney after Barristan unseated Dunk.  So Barristan is not a knight, either.  

Barristan is knighted by King Aegon V, so his knighthood is legitimate

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We know that any knight can make a knight. We don’t know that a king who has never been knighted can make a knight.  But there are some clues:

• When Dany wants Arstan Whitebeard knighted, she tells Ser Jorah to do it.  She does not simply proclaim him to be a knight.  This is in contrast to making someone a lord, in which case he gets a royal decree signed by the king.

• Prince Rhaegar initially did not intend to become a knight.  He later changed his mind and said “I must be a knight” (it is hinted that he read a prophecy stating that the Prince That Was Promised must be a knight).  If  a king is automatically a knight, then Rhaegar would not need to be knighted.  That would happen automatically when his father died.

• The power to make a knight comes from the Faith.  We know this, for example, because followers of the Old Gods can’t be knights.  But the Crown does not have the authority to act for the Faith.  The Crown can influence the Faith but it can’t directly usurp the Faith’s powers (for example, the king can’t directly appoint a High Septon any more than he can choose the Grand Maester or the LC of the Watch).  So there is no reason to think the king can make a knight just because he is king.  He would have that power only if he is also a knight.

Incidentally, if Rhaegar was chasing prophecies and thought he needed to be a knight to fulfill one, it would be interesting if we found out that he was knighted by Barristan and that Rhaegar also was, therefore, not a knight.

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Dunk told Egg the truth about his non-knightgood at some point. Either when Egg was to be knighted, or at a later point.  And anyone who has read the first three novellas and thinks there's a sliver of possibility that Egg wanted anyone but Dunk to knight him, go read it again. And again, and again. :P

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35 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

We know that any knight can make a knight. We don’t know that a king who has never been knighted can make a knight.  But there are some clues:

• When Dany wants Arstan Whitebeard knighted, she tells Ser Jorah to do it.  She does not simply proclaim him to be a knight.  This is in contrast to making someone a lord, in which case he gets a royal decree signed by the king.

• Prince Rhaegar initially did not intend to become a knight.  He later changed his mind and said “I must be a knight” (it is hinted that he read a prophecy stating that the Prince That Was Promised must be a knight).  If  a king is automatically a knight, then Rhaegar would not need to be knighted.  That would happen automatically when his father died.

• The power to make a knight comes from the Faith.  We know this, for example, because followers of the Old Gods can’t be knights.  But the Crown does not have the authority to act for the Faith.  The Crown can influence the Faith but it can’t directly usurp the Faith’s powers (for example, the king can’t directly appoint a High Septon any more than he can choose the Grand Maester or the LC of the Watch).  So there is no reason to think the king can make a knight just because he is king.  He would have that power only if he is also a knight.

Incidentally, if Rhaegar was chasing prophecies and thought he needed to be a knight to fulfill one, it would be interesting if we found out that he was knighted by Barristan and that Rhaegar also was, therefore, not a knight.

Reading from the wiki entry for "Knight," apparently the author directly addressed this in remarks at a comic con in 2006:

. . . kings can make knights as well, even if they were never knighted themselves.

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

Reading from the wiki entry for "Knight," apparently the author directly addressed this in remarks at a comic con in 2006:

 

 

I would not put much stock in the wiki entry.  It is based on a report from the July 2006 comic con that has parts stricken out on the SSM page because the person who paraphrased what GRRM supposedly said later apparently came forward to say that in one portion of his report he was giving his opinion rather than George’s.

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On 4/23/2018 at 5:02 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I'd say Egg knows about Dunk. 

Interesting bc I rate Egg to be as self-aware and even more perseptive as a very very large majority of other “well known” characters in all the material associated. However I never suspected he already was had doubts of his past. Prince Baelor both knew and talked kindly of Ser Arlan and went with it. The story of how his dying father like knight gave him his knighthood before dying is extremely believable..... but even harder to prove also. I guess all I mean is that Egg differed to Baelor’s Knowledge/backing of Ser Duncan...... however I’ll admit he immediately fucks up by trying to keep Arlan’s sigil. 

 

 

I really would like to hear why you think Egg is on to dunk already? I’d love a fresh take and I’m a little rust on D&E actually so I could be missing much and more 

 

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6 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Interesting bc I rate Egg to be as self-aware and even more perseptive as a very very large majority of other “well known” characters in all the material associated. However I never suspected he already was had doubts of his past. Prince Baelor both knew and talked kindly of Ser Arlan and went with it. The story of how his dying father like knight gave him his knighthood before dying is extremely believable..... but even harder to prove also. I guess all I mean is that Egg differed to Baelor’s Knowledge/backing of Ser Duncan...... however I’ll admit he immediately fucks up by trying to keep Arlan’s sigil. 

 

 

I really would like to hear why you think Egg is on to dunk already? I’d love a fresh take and I’m a little rust on D&E actually so I could be missing much and more 

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in the post you quoted... What I meant was that future Egg will learn about it, but I certainly don't think he already knew during the three novellas we have read. :blink:

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14 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

We know that any knight can make a knight. We don’t know that a king who has never been knighted can make a knight.  But there are some clues:

• When Dany wants Arstan Whitebeard knighted, she tells Ser Jorah to do it.  She does not simply proclaim him to be a knight.  This is in contrast to making someone a lord, in which case he gets a royal decree signed by the king.

• Prince Rhaegar initially did not intend to become a knight.  He later changed his mind and said “I must be a knight” (it is hinted that he read a prophecy stating that the Prince That Was Promised must be a knight).  If  a king is automatically a knight, then Rhaegar would not need to be knighted.  That would happen automatically when his father died.

• The power to make a knight comes from the Faith.  We know this, for example, because followers of the Old Gods can’t be knights.  But the Crown does not have the authority to act for the Faith.  The Crown can influence the Faith but it can’t directly usurp the Faith’s powers (for example, the king can’t directly appoint a High Septon any more than he can choose the Grand Maester or the LC of the Watch).  So there is no reason to think the king can make a knight just because he is king.  He would have that power only if he is also a knight.

Incidentally, if Rhaegar was chasing prophecies and thought he needed to be a knight to fulfill one, it would be interesting if we found out that he was knighted by Barristan and that Rhaegar also was, therefore, not a knight.

In the marriage alliance between the Starks and Freys one of the terms was that Robb would take Olyvar Frey as his squire and knight him in due time. If the Lord of Winterfell, who isn't even of the Seven or a knight, can knight someone, I expect a king can.

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35 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

In the marriage alliance between the Starks and Freys one of the terms was that Robb would take Olyvar Frey as his squire and knight him in due time. If the Lord of Winterfell, who isn't even of the Seven or a knight, can knight someone, I expect a king can.

I took that to mean that Robb could have it arranged, by instructing one of his followers, who is a knight, to knight the boy. I don't think the son of the Lord of Winterfell could knight someone. 

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I took that to mean that Robb could have it arranged, by instructing one of his followers, who is a knight, to knight the boy. I don't think the son of the Lord of Winterfell could knight someone. 

Well someone had to have knighted the first knight. That he was being squired for implies an ability to knight someone. The whole concept is terribly vague but I've always been left with the impression that the high lords and royalty had the ability to knight people. 

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On 23.04.2018 at 11:11 PM, Lady Jowana said:

I totally agree, Aegon V probably wouldn’t even mind keeping him not knighted and still serving as Lord Commander given how much he respects him.

I can also see that but being a knight matters much for Dunk so Aegon would arrange someone to knigget Dunk.

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2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

In the marriage alliance between the Starks and Freys one of the terms was that Robb would take Olyvar Frey as his squire and knight him in due time. If the Lord of Winterfell, who isn't even of the Seven or a knight, can knight someone, I expect a king can.

Robb may be a knight. He has Ser Rodrik before shit happens and after that, well he has 400 knights from Forces gathered in WF alone.

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The whole system is deeply flawed. If any knight can dub others, then literally anyone can come forward and claim that they are a knight. Regardless of whether it's true or not.

I don't think this would happen too often. If someone claimed to be a knight, the two outcomes are that people would believe him or people wouldn't believe him. If they don't believe him, he has gained nothing and has to keep working as a squire or a sellsword until someone will dub him in front of witnesses. If they do believe him, he still has to acquire armor and a horse to get any benefit out of being a knight. Very few men could do this, unless they are highborn, in which case a parent or guardian has probably already arranged a path toward knighthood.

Dunk was almost turned away from the Ashford Meadow tourney because no one would vouch for him. After quizzing him about things only Ser Arlan would know - and giving Dunk the benefit of the doubt when details of Ser Arlan's version don't match Prince Baelor's recollection - Prince Baelor essentially knighted Dunk by choosing to believe Dunk's claim that he had been knighted by Ser Arlan.

The things that strike me about Dunk's interaction with Baelor are:

1) that Baelor said the steward was expecting Dunk - for some reason, Plummer the steward had bothered to tell the royal family members that an unknown guy claiming to be a hedge knight had tried to enter the tournament; and

2) that Baelor cared to let Dunk participate.

I am looking at the Ashford Meadow tourney as a big metaphor for the Targaryen succession and the rise of various usurpers, so I'm curious why Baelor felt it was worth including Dunk in the mix.

I do think it is significant that non-knights who could or should be knights, or who are knights in every respect except having been dubbed, become some of the most honorable warriors in ASOIAF. If Barristan's dubbing was a false dubbing, I'm sure GRRM set that up on purpose.

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well someone had to have knighted the first knight. That he was being squired for implies an ability to knight someone. The whole concept is terribly vague but I've always been left with the impression that the high lords and royalty had the ability to knight people. 

I wouldn't be surprised if a king could, but as it's not really a tradition in the North, I doubt a non-knighted Stark would do it. It's too linked to the Faith.

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