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The Clouds by Aristophanes (and other ancient literature)


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I read this thing over a decade ago in high school, and for some reason I thought of it again recently.  Probably some Reddit comment about Socrates.

Why on Earth does anyone defend this shit or praise it?  The fact that this anti-intellectual trash is one of the few plays that survived millennia enrages me.  The sorts of ways Aristophanes mocks Socrates is so damn reminiscent of how people will mock science in the modern day - trivializing inquiry or misrepresenting it as absurd or impractical, etc. 

 

Also ancient Lit thread, because why not.

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13 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

I read this thing over a decade ago in high school, and for some reason I thought of it again recently.  Probably some Reddit comment about Socrates.

Why on Earth does anyone defend this shit or praise it?  The fact that this anti-intellectual trash is one of the few plays that survived millennia enrages me.  The sorts of ways Aristophanes mocks Socrates is so damn reminiscent of how people will mock science in the modern day - trivializing inquiry or misrepresenting it as absurd or impractical, etc. 

 

Also ancient Lit thread, because why not.

I've seen it argued that this play is the reason Socrates was executed by the Athenian State.  It is interesting that it is among the survivors of ancient days.

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One aspect of civilization that I value is the willingness to consider viewpoints and artistic values that I do not share, if only to be able to identify ideas and worldviews that I perceive as being morally or intellectually wrong.

As a result, I would not support the proscription and elimination of all copies of Mein Kampf.  It is a badly-written piece of literature full of bad ideas, and its author was a bad person, so it checks all the negative ticks on my list of moral assessments.  Still, possessing the text allows us to point at it and say, "There are Hitler's ideas, in case you wanted to check and make sure that he was bad and his ideas were bad."

Furthermore, if you start burning books or stamping out other forms of art, where do you stop?  And who shall make the determination of what should be eliminated?  One person might find Monty Python of value but dislike Key and Peele; if that person has the power to wipe out the works of Key and Peele, is it the correct, morally-right action to take?

And I would go so far as to say that being able to reference The Clouds in a discussion of a society that does not value science or intellectual pursuits possesses some value.  If I point to the resulting death of Socrates as the outcome of an environment unfriendly to reason or curiosity, I may be able to draw a parallel to some more contemporary possible outcome.

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16 hours ago, Wilbur said:

One aspect of civilization that I value is the willingness to consider viewpoints and artistic values that I do not share, if only to be able to identify ideas and worldviews that I perceive as being morally or intellectually wrong.

As a result, I would not support the proscription and elimination of all copies of Mein Kampf.  It is a badly-written piece of literature full of bad ideas, and its author was a bad person, so it checks all the negative ticks on my list of moral assessments.  Still, possessing the text allows us to point at it and say, "There are Hitler's ideas, in case you wanted to check and make sure that he was bad and his ideas were bad."

Furthermore, if you start burning books or stamping out other forms of art, where do you stop?  And who shall make the determination of what should be eliminated?  One person might find Monty Python of value but dislike Key and Peele; if that person has the power to wipe out the works of Key and Peele, is it the correct, morally-right action to take?

And I would go so far as to say that being able to reference The Clouds in a discussion of a society that does not value science or intellectual pursuits possesses some value.  If I point to the resulting death of Socrates as the outcome of an environment unfriendly to reason or curiosity, I may be able to draw a parallel to some more contemporary possible outcome.

I'm not advocating book burning.  You will not find me supporting that.  I'm saying I do see some irony in the fact that this play and not others is among antiquities survivors.  

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I'm not saying we should destroy The Clouds or that it should have been destroyed. But rather that, considering the vast majority of ancient literature has not survived to the present day, the fact that The Clouds has - presumably even in exception to the other writings by Socrates' students as only Xenophon and Plato survive in their accounts of Socrates despite Socrates having a zillion students - is iniquitous.

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14 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

I'm not saying we should destroy The Clouds or that it should have been destroyed. But rather that, considering the vast majority of ancient literature has not survived to the present day, the fact that The Clouds has - presumably even in exception to the other writings by Socrates' students as only Xenophon and Plato survive in their accounts of Socrates despite Socrates having a zillion students - is iniquitous.

True.  The loss of so much art from Classical Greece is a shame.

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I have never read any Aristophanes as far as I recall but he was considered a brilliant satirist not only in his time but also by many great poets of later times.

"The Clouds" predates the trial of Socrates by more than 20 years, so it seems unlikely that it actually contributed to the death sentence. It was also obviously satire, the comedy mocks some of the same things that are critiziced in Plato's dialogues, namely the sophist's argumentation techniques that make the weaker case stronger etc.

As for survival, more than a quarter of his works and several fragments is actually pretty good. (For Sophokles, the most renowned Greek dramatist it is 7 tragedies of about 120! Only three operas of about a dozen by Monteverdi were preserved and this was less than 400 years ago with the printing press available...) This shows that the stuff was highly regarded, so more copies made and some survived. Of course there is a random element, many brilliant works might have been lost. But it is not completely random as the pieces both of literature and philosophy and science that were considered best or most important

So maybe we should not mourn the losses (which is futile anyway) but think about how amazing it is that plays from more than 2400 years ago (when my ancestors' favorite pastime was probably beating each other up or dancing around oak trees) are still played today. And we still use a funny word like "cloud cuckoo land" (something new I learned today: Nephelokokkygia from "The Birds", nephele means cloud and kokkyx means cuckoo) that was made up by a brilliant comedy writer so long ago.

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Never read the one from the OP, but I'll take that as an open door to mention other Aristophanes works.  I remember Lysistrata was pretty good, the professor I had for it was awesome and handily destroyed claims that the text was feminist or anti-war.  We also watched a video that summarized different interpretations and reenactments since.  It was definitely a good launch pad for discussing sex and gender in society going way back.

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So, I'm going to go way against the grain in this thread. The Clouds is a fantastic play, and one of the best examples of Old Comedy we have. And as @Jo498 says, it is very unlikely it was one of the reasons Socrates was executed. Plato may have thought so, but it was produced over twenty years before Socrates' trial, and Plato wasn't exactly a fan of comedy in general or this play. It's not like he even ever says that this play was responsible for Socrates' death- there's just a few references in the Apology to Aristophanes' depiction of Socrates. I can't think of an example of Aristophanes' plays clearly influencing public policy or public opinion at the time they were produced, let alone a quarter of a century later- and he attacked some of the most prominent Athenian politicians. Let's also not forget that the first time The Clouds was put on, it lost the competition at the festival it was performed at. So it's not like everyone left the theater saying "hey, let's kill Socrates in twenty-five years!"

I disagree strongly that this is an anti-intellectual play. It's a very intellectual comedy, engaging with many of the prevalent ideas of sophistry and natural science. No, it's not accurate; Socrates is probably chosen as the mouthpiece for these ideas because he was a prominent intellectual, not because he believed what he says here. But this is a criticism you can level against Plato just as much as Aristophanes. And yes, it exaggerates and misrepresents. It's a comedy! It's meant to be funny. It mocks much more than Socrates and intellectual culture too: it makes fun of "old fashioned" style Athenians who were critical of contemporary intellectuals (check out the debate between "Right" and "Wrong"- both sides get made fun of). It's a play about Athenian courts and constant Athenian litigation, it's a play about generational divides, it's a play about country bumpkins who try to make it in the big city and understand big ideas. And did I mention it's witty and funny and even has fart jokes? Obviously tastes will vary, but I'll always take Aristophanes over the New Comedy that's survived from the ancient world (Menander, Plautus, Terence). New Comedy was of course very influential, but it's also incredibly formulaic. Aristophanes fits modern comedic sensibilities much more.

And that's not even to talk about what an interesting source this and other Aristophanes plays make for historians of popular culture and intellectual life at Athens. 

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I think you are only going against the thread-starter, not the grain of the thread, Caligula.

Lysistrata is probably the one most frequently staged today. There is another "feminist" one, "The assembly/parliament of women"

The Clouds are today well known because it is the most contemporary account of Socrates and, satire or not, it differs interestingly and markedly from the Socrates we are presented in Plato and Xenophon. As we expect quite a bit of idealisation by the latter, we simply do not have a "neutral" picture of Socrates. Still, there are some strange things, e.g. that Socrates is presented as a natural philosopher in the "Clouds" which is totally at odds with the "Platonic Socrates".

In fact, Plato (and the Platonic Socrates, especially in the "Republic") are far closer to being "anti-intellectual" or at least clearly anti-freedom of art and speech. They are downright totalitarian and want to ban all music, comedy, poetry that could "endanger" the virtue and courage of the guardian/philosopher caste of the ideal state. This does not mean that the Republic isn't a great piece of philosophy, above all the ideal state is mainly a metaphor for the ideal soul although many of the ideas presented were also seriously entertained as options in politics.

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4 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I disagree strongly that this is an anti-intellectual play. It's a very intellectual comedy, engaging with many of the prevalent ideas of sophistry and natural science. No, it's not accurate; Socrates is probably chosen as the mouthpiece for these ideas because he was a prominent intellectual, not because he believed what he says here.

Obviously Socrates doesn't believe what he says in the play, because what he says in the play is absurd.  But, you say it's engaging with natural science, but I don't see 'engaging', i see ridicule.  Aristophanes doesn't insert anything in the play that demonstrates his regard for natural philosophy - it's presented as being entirely without purpose or utility.  There's no aside or hint to the audience that there's some good in it.

 

3 hours ago, Jo498 said:

. Still, there are some strange things, e.g. that Socrates is presented as a natural philosopher in the "Clouds" which is totally at odds with the "Platonic Socrates".

I honestly don't doubt that Aristophanes' Socrates is the more true-to-life here than Plato's.  Plato wasn't interested in natural philosophy, but Aristotle was.  It's likely, then, that Socrates had a interest in natural philosophy which didn't catch Plato's interest and doesn't appear in his writings, but in his Academy he probably relayed these interests and that's where it caught Aristotle's attentions. 

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6 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Obviously Socrates doesn't believe what he says in the play, because what he says in the play is absurd.  But, you say it's engaging with natural science, but I don't see 'engaging', i see ridicule.  Aristophanes doesn't insert anything in the play that demonstrates his regard for natural philosophy - it's presented as being entirely without purpose or utility.  There's no aside or hint to the audience that there's some good in it.

 

 

I mean, Socrates does present the real ideas of natural philosophers and real theories of rhetoric, so there is engagement there. It's not all just fart jokes. And my point isn't so much that Aristophanes ever says "natural philosophy and sophistry is good!" but that he makes fun of all sides in the play, including those who criticized this "new learning." Right is presented as a lecherous pervert who just wants to watch young boys exercise and who thinks he's living during the Persian Wars. Strepsiades is the most buffoonish character in the whole play, and he's an old fashioned country bumpkin. And that's the point of the play, as much as we can ascribe motivation to an ancient comedian, which is always difficult if not impossible. It's a satire of Athenian society, a comedy, an exaggeration, not a praise of philosophy. I'm not sure why you're going into this play expecting a Platonic dialogue (especially when Plato was no stranger to criticizing Athenian intellectual and literary culture).  You might as well ask why anyone defends or praises the "shit" of Plato's Republic, when it advocates tightly controlling and/or banning poetry and other literature. As Jo points out, that's way more anti-intellectual than Aristophanes' jokes.

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20 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

So, I'm going to go way against the grain in this thread. The Clouds is a fantastic play, and one of the best examples of Old Comedy we have. And as @Jo498 says, it is very unlikely it was one of the reasons Socrates was executed. Plato may have thought so, but it was produced over twenty years before Socrates' trial, and Plato wasn't exactly a fan of comedy in general or this play. It's not like he even ever says that this play was responsible for Socrates' death- there's just a few references in the Apology to Aristophanes' depiction of Socrates. I can't think of an example of Aristophanes' plays clearly influencing public policy or public opinion at the time they were produced, let alone a quarter of a century later- and he attacked some of the most prominent Athenian politicians. Let's also not forget that the first time The Clouds was put on, it lost the competition at the festival it was performed at. So it's not like everyone left the theater saying "hey, let's kill Socrates in twenty-five years!"

I disagree strongly that this is an anti-intellectual play. It's a very intellectual comedy, engaging with many of the prevalent ideas of sophistry and natural science. No, it's not accurate; Socrates is probably chosen as the mouthpiece for these ideas because he was a prominent intellectual, not because he believed what he says here. But this is a criticism you can level against Plato just as much as Aristophanes. And yes, it exaggerates and misrepresents. It's a comedy! It's meant to be funny. It mocks much more than Socrates and intellectual culture too: it makes fun of "old fashioned" style Athenians who were critical of contemporary intellectuals (check out the debate between "Right" and "Wrong"- both sides get made fun of). It's a play about Athenian courts and constant Athenian litigation, it's a play about generational divides, it's a play about country bumpkins who try to make it in the big city and understand big ideas. And did I mention it's witty and funny and even has fart jokes? Obviously tastes will vary, but I'll always take Aristophanes over the New Comedy that's survived from the ancient world (Menander, Plautus, Terence). New Comedy was of course very influential, but it's also incredibly formulaic. Aristophanes fits modern comedic sensibilities much more.

And that's not even to talk about what an interesting source this and other Aristophanes plays make for historians of popular culture and intellectual life at Athens. 

Wasn’t the play cited during Socrates’ trial?

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It could be that Socrates himself mentions the play because it portrays him as someone teaching for money. In the apology he always stresses that he never taught for money, only talked to people publicly or in private gatherings (like the idealized settings of Plato's dialogues) without any charge.

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6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Wasn’t the play cited during Socrates’ trial?

Quote

Let us then take up the case from its beginning. What is the accusation from which arose the slander in which Meletus trusted when he wrote out the charge against me? What did they say when they slandered me? I must, as if they were my actual prosecutors, read the affidavit they would have sworn. It goes something like this: Socrates is guilty of wrongdoing in that he busies himself studying things in the sky and below the earth; he makes the worse into the stronger argument, and he teaches these same things to others. You have seen this yourselves in the comedy of Aristophanes, a Socrates swinging about there, saying he was walking on air and talking a lot of other nonsense about things of which I know nothing at all. I do not speak in contempt of such knowledge, if someone is wise in these things—lest Meletus bring more cases against me—but, gentlemen, I have no part in it, and on this point I call upon the majority of you as witnesses... Plato, Apology, 19a-c.

That's the extent to which the play is brought up during the trial, as a reference for the jurors to the kind of depiction of him prosecutors are painting. It seems a far cry from saying that Aristophanes' play, performed 25 years ago, is one of the reasons Socrates was brought to trial. And we should remember that the Apology is not a historical source or a reproduction of Socrates' speech. It's a Platonic dialogue, though perhaps one of the more genuine reflections of Socrates in Plato. But Xenophon's Apology, his version of Socrates' trial speech, makes no reference to Aristophanes. It's hard to make historical claims from these dialogues. If the Apology hadn't survived, but only Plato's Symposium, where Aristophanes and Socrates get drunk and make competing speeches about what love is, we'd probably all think that they had been best friends. 

Edit to add one more thing on the question of whether the play is intellectual or not: so many jokes of the play are on Strepsiades, the idiot country bumpkin- and the force of the jokes relies on Strepsiades misunderstanding  Socrates' theories and what he's saying (while the audience, presumably, will understand the theories and get that Strepsiades is dumb). This is one of the reasons I'd say the play is intellectual, even as it makes fun of intellectual culture at Athens; it forces the audience to engage with many of the ideas of the time.

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