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Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance


ToysoldierXIII

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18 hours ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

no one cares about your love or hate for her.

You make it difficult!

I think part of your point is that Sansa, unlike Arya, refuses to "see with her eyes, hear with her ears." Things are not only filtered through her wishful thinking, they're interpreted by it and suppressed if necessary. This seems similar to Cersei's approach to life, although being older, Cersei is much better at it, to the point of being delusional. I see Sansa as well along on this path.

Another thing Sansa has going against her is the way she defines her self-image by what others say. At Winterfell, she's Homecoming Barbie, then literally Queen (to be) Barbie. She feels and acts like the Queen Bee, and treats her underlings (everyone else) accordingly. Later, when Cersei turns on her and calls her a "stupid little girl", she believes that. Ditto Joffrey. Later, Littlefinger (and through him, Dontos) works hard to flatter her on how "clever" she is, and bingo! Now she thinks she's clever. But as readers, we can see her lines of thought and realize she's not as smart as she thinks - like Cersei, she tends to grab on one little interpretation and stops her analysis there, thinking she understands it all.

13 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

The real disturbing pattern you pointed out is the lack of empathy for all the non- princesses suffering around her.   

Great observation! And we can find a long list of examples of that. I'm particularly distressed by Sansa, having heard the Hound's sad tale, seems to forget about it thereafter, until AFTER the battle on the Blackwater. But no point in elaborating; it's all been said before.

Cognitive dissonance. Lack of empathy. Letting others define how she thinks about herself. That's no way to go through life, girl.

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Say what you will about Sansa, but she is still alive, which is more than can be said about many of the supposedly mature, capable people in the story; ie, Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Tywin, Balon, Drogo, Jeor...

And I'll invoke a thought voiced in the televised version of the story as well: Sansa would never have survived Arya's experiences after the death of her father, but Arya would not have survived Sansa's either.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Say what you will about Sansa, but she is still alive, which is more than can be said about many of the supposedly mature, capable people in the story; ie, Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Tywin, Balon, Drogo, Jeor...

Better people often die while the undeserving survive, that’s just a fact of life, not evidence of any virtue on the part of the living.

27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And I'll invoke a thought voiced in the televised version of the story as well: Sansa would never have survived Arya's experiences after the death of her father, but Arya would not have survived Sansa's either.

First of all, that’s ridiculous, since one of them is responsible for betraying Ned and both contributes to his downfall while also putting herself in Lannister care... we can talk about the reasons why, but she has some share of personal responsibility for her own behavior. 

To compare these two plot arcs like that is preposterous. 

But all of that aside, Sansa’s immoral behavior, lack of empathy, refusal to take personal responsibility, her betrayal of Arya and Ned and Mikken and Nymeria, her lack of emotion at the deaths of life long friends and servants, and the fact that it was their own choices which led the sisters down different roads...

Why wouldn’t Arya have survived? Honestly? I do not understand... what would have killed her? I really don’t get it.

I get that the show wanted Sansa and Cat to be more likable... but the redemption stuff isn’t in the books.

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14 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

She wouldn't be servile that would cost her a head on shoulders.

The lannisters/littlefinger use Jeyne Poole to fake having Arya... what makes you think they’d have killed her?

It really doesn’t matter anyway, it’s a silly what if, but I just don’t see it.

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Lol, when I had first seen this post, I thought that you had just made mistakes in your rereading analysis and missed parts of the books somehow. But now I see that your opinion is not going to change no matter what evidence is provided to you for the contrary. Much like a character you talk about. As mentioned in the comment section of the previous post by others, this post is a masterpiece of selective evid

She does think that Joffrey is ugly.

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Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. "I hate you," she whispered.

AGOT Sansa VI

So that's a belief changed, but we see that she is still associating cruelty with ugliness, as in songs. We see this challenged as well, many times, like here:

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Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her

ACOK, Sansa III

But when Ollena says that Joffrey seems gallant and a lion, she doesn't refuse that, but still says that he is a monster. And in TWoW, she acknowledges that the world is full of pretty monsters.

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A comely monster, that's what he was. Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was.

TWoW, Alayne.

This is another one where you see your claim of Sansa never giving Tyrion credit to failing. But this is just the fist such instance.

Tummy fluttering can be confused with nervous excitement or creeped out or afraid (Insides going to water), but I don't see how swallowing a bat confuses with anything but being queasy. Here is another one where she lets us know how much she thinks of Joffrey.

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A book. Sansa wondered if Joffrey moved those fat wormy lips of his when he read.

ASOS, Sansa IV

And about Lady:

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"That was Arya's wolf," she said. "Lady never hurt you, but you killed her anyway." "No, your father did," Joff said, "but I killed your father.

ACOK, Sansa III

And now we have more about Tyrion:

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They were all looking at her, the way they had looked at her that day in the yard when Ser Boros Blount had torn her clothes off. It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself.

 

ASOS, Sansa III

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He studied her with his mismatched eyes. “I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa,” he said softly, “but neither am I Joffrey.” “No,” she said. “You were kind to me. I remember.”

 

ASOS, Sansa III

So she does give him credit. About your comment about Tyrion showing her so much kindness, well, are girls supposed to have sex with you because you are nice? And yes, even if you are in that arranged marriage world, it doesn't change that sexual intercourse is something people are careful in engaging in, especially someone like Sansa. When she thinks about no one caring about her feelings, she is thinking about no one letting her go home, or marrying her at their whims and only for her claim. It is not about being beaten bloody. If Tyrion was so kind and devoted to her, he would have smuggled her to safety himself and helped her family against the Lannisters. But that needs him to betray his own family, which he does, eventually, but not for Sansa. In the end, she was as wifely toward him as he was husbandly toward her.

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And she responds to that kindness by betraying him and putting both their lives in jeopardy by telling people they hadn't fucked.

When does she put their lives in jeopardy by telling people they hadn't fucked?

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He started wearing PJs for her, perfect gentleman always. Wants to learn more about her, asks her how her days are, wants to learn about her religion, reminds her to dress warm when it is chilly, gives her absolute freedom, gets her out of the castle and away from her enemies, etc.


Page after page after page is kindness like she has never seen (Storm 712, 808, 812, 813, 821, 828). Seriously do a character read and patterns like this get very noticeable.


Caps it off with the fourth treason vs her enemy, like three pages worth of tearing into Joff.


Not a seconds thought or care about his arrest. Worse – ‘“Widowhood will become you, Sansa.” The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again.’ Yes, the greatest person in her life and she is beyond happy he is about to die. Contrast that with LF:

Okay, first off, the greatest person in her life was the one who rescued her, apart from her father and her mother and her brother, all of whom, incidentally, the Lannisters killed/had killed. Second, the scene you are quoting goes like this:

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Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa."

The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she'd wanted . . . wasn't it?

The emphasized words are the ones you blatantly omitted, and they literally are a second thought which you say she never had. There it is clearly seen that she questions herself as to why she isn't completely happy. This omission leads you to say that she is beyond happy, but as I said, this entire post is like this. Instead, this is actually where we see that she is feeling some sadness toward Tyrion's predicament.

And how exactly is it that you would have repaid Lord Tyrion of all his kindness had you been in Sansa's shoes? Would you have acted in public as his wife? Would not have badmouthed him to others? Wouldn't have scorned him? Would have asked if the peas are overcooked? Would have sent away Dontos and told him you had a happy home here? You'd probably have controlled your teenager fit of anger and kneeled so he could have wrapped the cloak around you, I guess. What can I say, I understand a fit in a twelve-year-old. Even Tyrion knows he is failing in his duties as a husband to her, so why are you holding it against Sansa only:

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It was not enough, though. He had wrapped his cloak around her shoulders and sworn to protect her, but that was as cruel a jape as the crown the Freys had placed atop the head of Robb Stark’s direwolf after they’d sewn it onto his headless corpse. Sansa knew that as well.

So why would she stay? As I said, she was as wifely toward him as he was husbandly toward her. So he was a gentleman to her, was she anything less than a gentlewoman? Is just the promise of not getting beaten enough for you to continue living as a hostage? They weren't bearing Jaime in Riverrun. Would you have had him turn away the rescuers Tyrion sent him? Or refuse the offer of freedom Catelyn made? How is that any different than how Sansa left Tyrion? And did she know, when making the plan with Dontos, that he would be accused of regicide and she will be incriminating him by running away? I'm not saying that she would have disagreed with the plan if she knew it all, but saying she just threw Tyrion under a bus without any thought is completely wrong.

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Sansa now knows LF is behind basically everything shitty that has happened to her and her entire family.

I doubt she has basically everything. She does have a lot, but that situation with Lysa murder was a high tension situation, and things are quite hard to remember afterward. True, she thinks about the things Lysa had said troubling her greatly, but we don't know how much she remembers. But we can hope that it comes back to her as she comes across more evidence that Petyr had worked toward the war between the Lannisters and the Starks.

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Sansa lovers need to accept that she is an unwittingly dangerous foil to the “heroes" of this story.

What you need to understand about Sansa lovers is that we consider her to be one of the heroes of the story. Most other heroes thinks with a sword, whereas Sansa was the one that helped the wounded Lancel not just physically but emotionally even when he was one of the perpetrators of the beating she received in front of the Iron Throne. And when she doesn't slide into Stockholm Syndrome with Tyrion, she shows her how good she is at keeping her own values safe from the wiles of others (Tears are not the only weapon that women have). Her empathy and ability to forgive will probably be the one thing that can bring peace to the warring houses of ASoIaF. That is why many say that she is the best choice as a ruler for Westeros at the end of the series.

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1 hour ago, lAPPYc said:

This is another one where you see your claim of Sansa never giving Tyrion credit

You have many examples of where Sansa gives a little grudging credit to Tyrion, and thanks! However, you've missed the critical part: she never ACTS on them. She always concludes she needs to treat him coldly, because he's "a Lannister." First, that shows she's still a poor judge of character. Second, and more importantly, it emphasizes her lack of empathy.

By the time Sansa is freed from her engagement to Joffrey (yippee!), Tyrion has been lying near death, with sweet Cersei trying to push him the rest of the way in. Sansa merely sees him as "even uglier." The little guy took an arrow through the chest, and moves even more painfully than before. He's got a big, unhealed slash across his face. His nose has been cut off, and is still healing (badly). But there's no thought from Sansa about how hurt he must have been, just his increased ugliness. She helped another Lannister by having servingmen take him to the maester - but then, Lancel was pretty enough for Cersei to f*ck, so I guess that was different for her.

We've run down the litany of the ways Tyrion has tried to make amends to Sansa and keep the unwanted marriage from being as awful as ... well, marriage to Joffrey would have been. All she does is make her pouty face at him. And then, she shows off as the social butterfly in public, charming and schmoozing everybody in sight - except for the ugly little guy she's married to. Not even basic politeness there.

Total lack of empathy, as has been noted. Can empathy be learned, or is it innate? We know it can at least be faked, and Sansa needs to figure that out at some point. Also, a little more about how to judge character. But to do either, she needs to learn to "see with her eyes, hear with her ears." That's the "cognitive dissonance" angle.

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16 minutes ago, zandru said:

You have many examples of where Sansa gives a little grudging credit to Tyrion, and thanks! However, you've missed the critical part: she never ACTS on them. She always concludes she needs to treat him coldly, because he's "a Lannister." First, that shows she's still a poor judge of character. Second, and more importantly, it emphasizes her lack of empathy.

By the time Sansa is freed from her engagement to Joffrey (yippee!), Tyrion has been lying near death, with sweet Cersei trying to push him the rest of the way in. Sansa merely sees him as "even uglier." The little guy took an arrow through the chest, and moves even more painfully than before. He's got a big, unhealed slash across his face. His nose has been cut off, and is still healing (badly). But there's no thought from Sansa about how hurt he must have been, just his increased ugliness. She helped another Lannister by having servingmen take him to the maester - but then, Lancel was pretty enough for Cersei to f*ck, so I guess that was different for her.

We've run down the litany of the ways Tyrion has tried to make amends to Sansa and keep the unwanted marriage from being as awful as ... well, marriage to Joffrey would have been. All she does is make her pouty face at him. And then, she shows off as the social butterfly in public, charming and schmoozing everybody in sight - except for the ugly little guy she's married to. Not even basic politeness there.

Total lack of empathy, as has been noted. Can empathy be learned, or is it innate? We know it can at least be faked, and Sansa needs to figure that out at some point. Also, a little more about how to judge character. But to do either, she needs to learn to "see with her eyes, hear with her ears." That's the "cognitive dissonance" angle.

Oh I'm sure the cognitive dissonance angle is there, but the OP was unnecessarily bashing her character, with prejudice. Her CD lessens though, except according to the OP. Worse, we see it returning in AFFC when she thinks of Myranda as a sister she should have had and losses her guard around her. The Vale is a peaceful place, and it would be easy for her to slip back into it. That's why I'm hoping something will go down soon and put her back on her guard. And yes, Lancel's looks may have had the effect you said.

As to making pouty faces, don't forget that she was a hostage there. And Tyrion was the one that delivered the news of Robb's and Catelyn's death to her.

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charming and schmoozing everybody in sight

I'm sure you know you're exaggerating. As for politeness, Tyrion accuses her is hiding behind courtesy. What do you think courtesy is, but politeness? And why does Sansa owe anyone politeness anyway? Jaime was given good chambers by Robb, and he repaid him by trying to escape with the men Tyrion had sent to him. They hardly beat him (disregarding the fact that he wasn't a12 year old girl and could have actually taken it), and we know how polite he was in his talk with Catelyn.

A prisoner doesn't owe the captors anything. It's not like Tyrion once feel and Sansa refused to help him up. How would you have ACTED upon her thoughts? I think her politeness was more than enough.

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43 minutes ago, zandru said:

You have many examples of where Sansa gives a little grudging credit to Tyrion, and thanks! However, you've missed the critical part: she never ACTS on them. She always concludes she needs to treat him coldly, because he's "a Lannister." First, that shows she's still a poor judge of character. Second, and more importantly, it emphasizes her lack of empathy.

By the time Sansa is freed from her engagement to Joffrey (yippee!), Tyrion has been lying near death, with sweet Cersei trying to push him the rest of the way in. Sansa merely sees him as "even uglier." The little guy took an arrow through the chest, and moves even more painfully than before. He's got a big, unhealed slash across his face. His nose has been cut off, and is still healing (badly). But there's no thought from Sansa about how hurt he must have been, just his increased ugliness. She helped another Lannister by having servingmen take him to the maester - but then, Lancel was pretty enough for Cersei to f*ck, so I guess that was different for her.

We've run down the litany of the ways Tyrion has tried to make amends to Sansa and keep the unwanted marriage from being as awful as ... well, marriage to Joffrey would have been. All she does is make her pouty face at him. And then, she shows off as the social butterfly in public, charming and schmoozing everybody in sight - except for the ugly little guy she's married to. Not even basic politeness there.

Total lack of empathy, as has been noted. Can empathy be learned, or is it innate? We know it can at least be faked, and Sansa needs to figure that out at some point. Also, a little more about how to judge character. But to do either, she needs to learn to "see with her eyes, hear with her ears."

Sansa couldn't read Tyrion's mind and she later declares she'd rather stay married to Tyrion than to marry Robert. She later says she doesn't want to remarry at all, however you want to read that.

Tyrion wasn't free. He was under the orders of Tywin, later Joff when he came into his own and to a degree Sansa wouldn't understand, Cersei as Queen Regent. Trusting Tyrion would be trusting them and Tyrion fought against Robb and had he reached KL, he would have again. She learned her lesson.

I like Tyrion, but I'd have choice words for someone who'd expect me to have empathy for a man to whom I'd been forced to marry. And even choicer words when that man's family and himself were at war with my family effectively destroying it.

 

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9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

lannisters/littlefinger use Jeyne Poole to fake having Arya... what makes you think they’d have killed her

Had Arya been bethroted to Joffrey instead of Sansa, she wouldn't act like her sister and because of that she will lose her head.

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5 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Had Arya been bethroted to Joffrey instead of Sansa, she wouldn't act like her sister and because of that she will lose her head.

No, had Arya been betrothed to Joff she wouldn’t have betrayed Ned and would have safely escaped King’s Landing on the ship Ned had prepared when he said he didn’t want to marry his daughter to Joff...

but even the idea that Arya would have died in the grave Sansa dug herself doesn’t follow. 

I think this is just part of the narrative the show tried to create in order to redeem Sansa. 

The parallels between Sansa and Cersei abound.

They were cruel to their bastard/dwarf brother.

They wanted to marry the prince more than anything.

They are responsible for the death of another child while growing up (Cersei pushing a girl down a well, Sansa gets Mikken killed).

They both betray their father, Cersei to get Jaime in the Kingsguard and Sansa running to Cersei because Ned wanted to call off the engagement with Joff.

They are both self centered, lack empathy, and are easily manipulated.

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14 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

As to making pouty faces, don't forget that she was a hostage there. And Tyrion was the one that delivered the news of Robb's and Catelyn's death to her.

Yes, it would have been better to have Joffrey sneer at her and bring her Robb's head on a serving tray. Same thing, right?

14 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

And why does Sansa owe anyone politeness anyway?

It isn't a give and take simple "owing" thing. Relationships are rarely this transactional. Had Sansa had a little empathy - or was a better judge of character - or even some reasonable planning capability - she would have figured out that nothing would be lost by treating Tyrion with civility. No, not rigid "politeness", but treating like a human being instead of a twisted little monkey. She should have noticed, at some point, that Tyrion was actually hostile to his relatives, Cersei, Tywin, and particularly Joffrey. She could have sided with him against them. But no! The dwarf is "a Lannister"!!!

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa couldn't read Tyrion's mind and she later declares she'd rather stay married to Tyrion than to marry Robert. She later says she doesn't want to remarry at all, however you want to read that.

Well first, then she's "a bastard." Second, look at the pathetic losers she's being mated to. "Sweetrobin", a sickly brat who's still on the teat at the age of 8? Harry the Whoring Heir? Compared to these worthies, Tyrion looks pretty good. Just as the Hound looks pretty good in retrospect - especially when she isn't actually LOOKING at him.

7 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Did you forget that she had attempted to help Lancel during Blackwater? Or saving Dontos? Or lowborn women with child?

No. I mentioned the handsome Ser, Lancel. After saving Dontos, she didn't much care for him (that actually makes it more altruistic, doesn't it?) She was just trying to get the "lowborn woman" to shut up by throwing a few coppers at her.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

but even the idea that Arya would have died in the grave Sansa dug herself doesn’t follow. 

I agree here! Arya would not have just sat around suffering. She'd have known all the serving people, even as new ones were rotated in. She wouldn't have hidden her bruises - let the court, and Queen, see what Mad King Joffrey did! She'd have constantly tried to escape - and Arya is athletic and smart enough to have done pretty well. Arya would have made friends among her enemies. If she'd been mated to Tyrion, his looks wouldn't have set her off like they did Sansa. The two of them would have become good friends, although not necessarily bedmates. Arya could have spared Tyrion the stigma of kinslaying by taking care of The Mad King herself.

I'm glad you've pointed out the growing parallels between Sansa and Cersei. Sansa may be on a bad track. We have no good reason to suppose Littlefinger is trying to train her up as a competitor to him. More like, he's prefer a younger, pliable Cersei who's completely under his control. Sansa doesn't seem interested in taking any control over her own life, so she's perfect.

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

o, had Arya been betrothed to Joff she wouldn’t have betrayed Ned and would have safely escaped King’s Landing on the ship Ned had prepared when he said he didn’t want to marry his daughter to Joff...

Let say that in this alt scenario Ned was still executed and escape failed.

From wikia

Indeed, it can be assumed that if Arya was in Sansa's place - at the first opportunity she would have grabbed some weapon and attempted (and maybe succeeded) in killing Joffrey and/or Cersei - and gotten herself killed.

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22 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well first, then she's "a bastard." Second, look at the pathetic losers she's being mated to. "Sweetrobin", a sickly brat who's still on the teat at the age of 8? Harry the Whoring Heir? Compared to these worthies, Tyrion looks pretty good. Just as the Hound looks pretty good in retrospect - especially when she isn't actually LOOKING at him.

The big thing about Tyrion’s arc is that nobody wants him except Lolly’s mother. That’s why he’s with whores convincing himself that they love him despite knowing the nature of whores, not being able to get over Tysha, where do whores go? repeated over and over and over…, killing Tywin "Wherever whores go." Tyrion's finger clenched. The crossbow whanged just as Lord Tywin started to rise.

But Sansa alone of all of Westeros gets criticism even after she says she wants to stay married to him unlike anyone else (but Lolly’s mother which is now off the table). And Harry the Heir is highly sought after as he’s next in line to be Lord Arryn/Warden of the East to a Robert Arryn most expect to die soon and he’s handsome. She only fantasies about the Hound when he’s not around? Who in blazes is fantasizing about him at all? Your criticism of Sansa here only holds up if you go to off the charts with the double standards and (conveniently) forget massive blocks of text.

I don't care if you dislike Sansa or even hate her, but if you're going to join in every Sansa thread, it's not a bad idea to do a Sansa re-read if for the only reason to actually have solid reasons to detract from her as every character has these.

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These various character hate threads always come across as fans who have poured over every word vs haters who only glossed over the POV several years ago, remembered only a few parts and then filled in the rest with fanfic. Or is it hatefic?

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54 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Bullshit. Sansa's relationship with Jon and Cersei's with Tyrion isn't comparable.

Of course it is, and the parallel is drawn directly from the text as in, all dwarfs are bastards in their fathers (sisters) eyes.

I’m not saying it’s exactly the same, Sanaa had a mother growing up, and Ned for a dad instead of ruthless Tywin.

But the parallel is surely there...

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It's Mycah, and Joffrey was responsible for his death.

My bad! Yes Mycah...

And maybe I should be more clear, again the situations aren’t exactly the same... but remarkably parallel.

Sansa willfully denying the facts because Arya is ruining everything and choosing to lie to try and preserve her ideal picture of her future is what got Mycah killed. If she tells the truth the Hound doesn’t get sent to kill him. Not to mention she feels no remorse for his fate.

Cersei is given the prophesy by Magi the Frog, and in her attempt to deny it, pushes her childhood friend down a well. So she could pretend it didn’t happen and still have her literal picture esque future with Rhaegar (she actually made a picture).

Both victims were in love with the sibling of Sansa/Cersei.

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Let say that in this alt scenario Ned was still executed and escape failed.

From wikia

Indeed, it can be assumed that if Arya was in Sansa's place - at the first opportunity she would have grabbed some weapon and attempted (and maybe succeeded) in killing Joffrey and/or Cersei - and gotten herself killed.

Arya escapes before Ned was executed... and I don’t think this assumption can be made at all... I don’t see any actual argument being put forth in its defense either, it sounds more like a hot take.

28 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

These various character hate threads always come across as fans who have poured over every word vs haters who only glossed over the POV several years ago, remembered only a few parts and then filled in the rest with fanfic. Or is it hatefic?

It’s ok to like and dislike whatever characters you want... there is no reason to be offended personally.

But I have to say, in my opinion, it takes some incredible willful ignorance or lack of understanding to still be making excuses for Sansa. If she is held to the same standard everyone should be held to, simple personal responsibility and basic empathy for the suffering of others, she fails miserably with few if any redeeming actions.

There is no reason you can’t feel differently, but to try and say others opinions are because they didn’t read well enough is a shitty arguement and comes across as you being unable to rationally explain you position.

In theory, it’s entirely possible you have a well thought out opinion supported by the text... but have to doubt that since I haven’t seen it and you instead tried to question if I’d read the books recently.

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