Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It’s ok to like and dislike whatever characters you want... there is no reason to be offended personally.

But I have to say, in my opinion it takes some incredible willful ignorance or lack of understanding to still be making excuses for Sansa. If she is held to the same standard everyone should be held to, simple personal responsibility and basic empathy for the suffering of others, she fails miserably with few of any redeeming actions.

There is no reason you can’t feel differently, but to try and say others opinions are because they didn’t read well enough is a shitty arguement and comes across as you being unable to rationally explain you position.

Well I was thinking more of the Stark hate threads when I wrote this (Jon's oathbreaking and Arya's a psychopath) as there are so many of them lately, hence why I didn't specify Sansa-hate. Dany hate seems to be out of style, at least compared to other times.

One's person's excuses is another person's understanding. Just because I understand why a character did and said something doesn't mean I agree with it. I understand why Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon. But holy cow...

There are numerous examples in this thread and the Stark threads are full of it where an opinion only holds water if you ignore other text which goes against one's argument. Reread above thread or any other character hate thread.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

There are numerous examples in this thread and the Stark threads are full of it where an opinion only holds water if you ignore other text which goes against one's argument. Reread above thread or any other character hate thread.

Care to share one example?

There are always unsubstantiated opinions on threads, like your own, but to lump people together and disregard their opinions because it is opposed to your own is inherently wrong.

There is nothing wrong with disliking characters, but I do agree that for a claim to be taken serieously it requires some substantiation or explanation.

[Moonmoon]

Awww, poor tyrion! Sansa is such a b***h! How dare a 12 year old refuse to open her heart or should I say open her legs to her "kind" scarred dwarf captor?! His family is slaughtering hers but he is nice to her so she should trust him! Even if he has and is working for his family's benefits and destruction of hers, she should be do more than showing him courtesy! She shouldn't mourn the death of her brother and mother (caused by her kind husband's family) because tyrion wants her to act like a happy and loving (child) wife! 

Sansa owes tyrion nothing! Sansa was polite to him and acknowledges his kindness several times in her thoughts. That's way more than anyone would have done in her place. Stop seeing through tyrion's biased and self pitying pov. I bet IF it was arya in her place, everyone here would have praised her for refusing to bend to her enemy and not developing stockholm syndrome. Actually, no one would have criticized her even if her only reason was finding tyrion ugly but because its sansa, she is shallow if she doesn't find him attractive (when she clearly is attracted to another ugly disfigured man named sandor). 

Before criticizing sansa's treatment of tyrion, look at what she went through:

The lannisters acted "kind" but betrayed her by killing her father, kept her as a hostage, abused her in every way, forcefully married her with one of theirs to steal her home and killed her remaining family. Tyrion IS a lannister who worked for his family's victory. He was waiting for robb to fall so he could get winterfell. 

I would have been really disappointed in her character if she trusted tyrion or fell in love with him. Treating tyrion with courtesy was the best possible way to deal with that sham marriage.

 

[Lollygag]

Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Care to share one example?

There are always unsubstantiated opinions on threads, like your own, but to lump people together and disregard their opinions because it is opposed to your own is inherently wrong.

There is nothing wrong with disliking characters, but I do agree that for a claim to be taken serieously it requires some substantiation or explanation.

This thread alone is full of examples where the text contracts a statement but I'll play. The OP says " I don't say intentional meaning evil, but in her damaged mind Dad = bad guy, Joff = good guy." This completely disregards that Sansa later thinks Joff is ugly, she tries to kill him, she tells him she hates him, and later rejects Harry the Heir because he reminds her of Joff. In this case taking AGOT Sansa and painting her entire character throughout the books that way despite the fact she has since changed drastically and that change came a loooonnnnggg time ago. That's why I asked the OP to elaborate as to whether they meant to discuss AGOT Sansa only or her whole character.

Arya's a psychopath gets similar treatment. They take a few key passages and ignore the parts which clearly show to not be anything close to a psychopath.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

55 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

This thread alone is full of examples where the text contracts a statement but I'll play. The OP says " I don't say intentional meaning evil, but in her damaged mind Dad = bad guy, Joff = good guy."

And there are definitely examples of her thinking this... I’m not sure I’d have called her mind damaged, but she for sure has episodes of thinking badly of Ned and well of Joff.

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This completely disregards that Sansa later thinks Joff is ugly, she tries to kill him, she tells him she hates him, and later rejects Harry the Heir because he reminds her of Joff.

Wait wait wait...

she’s aloud to change her mind on Joff... but even you will have to admit it was too little too late. She already threw her dad under the bus.

She doesn’t try to kill him... she thinks momentarily about doing it, but doesn’t.

Rejects Harry the Heir? You’ll have to show me that, last I read she was planning to marry him. You know, engaged to her own cousins heir, the same cousin she is either complicit with or willfully oblivious to his poisoning. So not only do I not see her rejecting Harry, I see her plotting to marry him because she is planning on letting Sweetrobin die.

This doesn’t make me think any better of her.

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In this case taking AGOT Sansa and painting her entire character throughout the books that way despite the fact she has since changed drastically and that change came a loooonnnnggg time ago.

I really don’t see it... I honestly don’t think Sansa has grown up much at all in the text so far. I guess it’s possible she’ll flip Littlefinger for real and start a redemption arc, but I wouldn’t count on it.

And long ago? What are you talking about... how has Sansa changed drastically at all, let alone when?

Frankly, I think this whole idea of Sansa redeeming herself stems from the tv show and simply isn’t in the books.

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That's why I asked the OP to elaborate as to whether they meant to discuss AGOT Sansa only or her whole character.

You seem to see more development than I do... could you maybe provide an example or two? Has Sansa ever sacrificed for someone else?

[Lollygag]

Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And there are definitely examples of her thinking this... I’m not sure I’d have called her mind damaged, but she for sure has episodes of thinking badly of Ned and well of Joff.

Wait wait wait...

she’s aloud to change her mind on Joff... but even you will have to admit it was too little too late. She already threw her dad under the bus.

She doesn’t try to kill him... she thinks momentarily about doing it, but doesn’t.

Rejects Harry the Heir? You’ll have to show me that, last I read she was engaged to him. You know, engaged to Hernando cousins heir, the same cousin she is either complicit with or willfully oblivious to his poisoning. So not only do I not see her rejecting Harry, I see her plotting to marry him because she is planning on letting Sweetrobin die.

This doesn’t make me think any better of her.

I really don’t see it... I honestly don’t think Sansa has grown up much at all in the text so far. I guess it’s possible she’ll flip Littlefinger for real and start a redemption arc, but I wouldn’t count on it.

And long ago? What are you talking about... how has Sansa changed drastically at all, let alone when?

You seem to see more development than I do... could you maybe provide an example or two? Has Sansa ever sacrificed for someone else?

Thinking well of the boyfriend and poorly of the controlling Dad is normal teenage stuff. Yes, it was too little too late and she did throw Ned under the bus. Period. But to ascribe to her understanding of what she was doing isn't right. She didn't know what the reader knew and she was a kid, a sheltered one at that.

I'll have to look, but blood in the mouth is consistent with the very real intent to kill in that moment. The Hound wipes the blood from her mouth and the moment passes. Sour leaf is a variation on the symbol. It was in one of Seams' threads about injury. I'll post it if I can find it. The Hound was convinced enough that she was that he decided to intervene. The Joff good thing doesn't hold up unless specify a specific time frame in AGOT.

Harry the Heir - I'll reply in the TWOW Alayne thread and tag you.

I don't expect you to think any better of her. I'm not a fan of her myself. Her arc interests me right now, but it may not later. No way would I choose someone like Sansa as a personal friend. Actually really struggled with her until I realized that she's very Eastern Philosophy which I've never understood and I've come to a better appreciation of it through observing Sansa.

The changing loooonnnnggg ago was specifically about the perception of Joff example. If accessing how much she's changed or not, eh, I think that varies depending on what you're talking about. No, in some ways she's not changed much but I don't agree if one makes that a general statement about her.

Sacrificing for someone else...saving Dontos from dying, and painfully at that. She'd have gotten it badly from Joff if the Hound hadn't stepped in.

 

 

[lAPPYc]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa willfully denying the facts because Arya is ruining everything and choosing to lie to try and preserve her ideal picture of her future is what got Mycah killed. If she tells the truth the Hound doesn’t get sent to kill him.

Lol, you just proved the point @Lollygag was making. The Hound wasn't sent after they questioned Sansa, but he was already out searching for Arya. He came back with Mycah's body that night, telling Ned that the night hadn't been a complete waste, because at least they found Mycah, if not Arya. Sansa's testimony had no effect on Mycah's fate.

And could elaborate on where she was cruel to Jon?

[HoodedCrow]

Sansa also made an appeal to try and spare Ned.

She had complicated motivations, but she did get Sweetrobin down the mountain.

She told Lady Olenna about Joffrey, possibly for Margaery’s sake.

she caught on that the Hound was not going to kill her, mostly bark.

She calmed the ladies during the Battle of the Blackwater, while Cersei was drunk and threatening her with Illyn Payne.

Shes probably in too much fear for survival to be comfortable enough for empathy, having been threatened, beaten, disinherited, attainted, put on a list for treason and could die for that alone, lied to, almost murdered by her Aunt, and lost her friends and family. She even was a little too unguarded with Myranda Royce. We’ll see if she bumps into Jeyne later on.

She did like that old dog...

i like her character because she shows the real options of women at the time, and how stifling and disempowering  it could be. Her dissonance has kept her going in a helpless situation. The reality is that she is in grave danger. She could break good or bad, or both, the Martin way.

 

[ToysoldierXIII]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

One's person's excuses is another person's understanding. 

There are numerous examples in this thread and the Stark threads are full of it where an opinion only holds water if you ignore other text which goes against one's argument. Reread above thread or any other character hate thread.

This is the problem and pretty much why I stopped responding once the Sansa brigade came in.

I offered a neat little psychoanalysis (that does hold water, feel free to ask any psychologists who have read the series) and offered that Sansa, love her or hate her, is a REALLY compelling character.

But then the dissonance of the Sansa brigade kicks in and they currently arguing that she is not a compelling character. They are arguing that she is a perfect Mary Sue.  Absolutely bananas to me that that Sansa lovers are so delusional that they are currently arguing how terrible she is - that is the level of crazy we are dealing with.

And yes, there are exceptions and moments that slightly contradict EVERYTHING in this series, even our sacred RLJ. What matters is pattern, totals/majority, and recency and while you may find an anomaly or two here and there my original statements still win out on those three things.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

Lol, you just proved the point @Lollygag was making. The Hound wasn't sent after they questioned Sansa, but he was already out searching for Arya.

You are mistaking questioning Sansa in front of the open court versus Sansa having spoken up and said at any point what had happened...

10 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

He came back with Mycah's body that night, telling Ned that the night hadn't been a complete waste, because at least they found Mycah, if not Arya. Sansa's testimony had no effect on Mycah's fate.

She had three days to tell the truth before they even found Arya, don’t tell me she couldn’t have spoken up.

10 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

And could elaborate on where she was cruel to Jon?

Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

But you are correct in that it’s not on the level of twisting baby Tyrion’s little lion, Sansa isn’t violent like Cersei is, but the parallel remains.

[Lollygag]

11 minutes ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

This is the problem and pretty much why I stopped responding once the Sansa brigade came in.

I offered a neat little psychoanalysis (that does hold water, feel free to ask any psychologists who have read the series) and offered that Sansa, love her or hate her, is a REALLY compelling character.

But then the dissonance of the Sansa brigade kicks in and they currently arguing that she is not a compelling character. They are arguing that she is a perfect Mary Sue.  Absolutely bananas to me that that Sansa lovers are so delusional that they are currently arguing how terrible she is - that is the level of crazy we are dealing with.

And yes, there are exceptions and moments that slightly contradict EVERYTHING in this series, even our sacred RLJ. What matters is pattern, totals/majority, and recency and while you may find an anomaly or two here and there my original statements still win out on those three things.

I think there's something to discuss in regards to cognitive dissonance with Sansa and probably other characters too now that I think on it.

But you've not shown the whole pattern or totals/majority as many have shown already and we can't tell recency or progression by the presentation as you've removed too much context and not cited book or chapter.

 

[Springwatch]

14 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant..

Bran calls Jon his 'bastard brother'. Was Bran cruel to Jon?

[Springwatch]

28 minutes ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

I offered a neat little psychoanalysis (that does hold water, feel free to ask any psychologists who have read the series) and offered that Sansa, love her or hate her, is a REALLY compelling character.

Almost everything in the OP was wrong - but here's the thing, there are better examples you could have used, and you did pick a topic worthy of discussion. So why not discuss it?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

17 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Shes probably in too much fear for survival to be comfortable enough for empathy, having been threatened, beaten, disinherited, attainted, put on a list for treason and could die for that alone, lied to, almost murdered by her Aunt, and lost her friends and family. She even was a little too unguarded with Myranda Royce. We’ll see if she bumps into Jeyne later on.

I’m not saying she doesn’t have reasons for the way she is, or that there aren’t excuses for her behavior... but a person should be judged by their actions, and while there may be reasons to understand and sympathize with her or anyone, respect and admiration derive from a person’s behavior, especially overcoming adversity.

17 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

She did like that old dog...

i like her character because she shows the real options of women at the time, and how stifling and disempowering  it could be. Her dissonance has kept her going in a helpless situation. The reality is that she is in grave danger. She could break good or bad, or both, the Martin way.

I agree that she could still break either way, and honestly I hope I end up liking her, I’m just not optimistic.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Bran calls Jon his 'bastard brother'. Was Bran cruel to Jon?

Besides that he didn’t say it to Jon?

One use of a phrase to his child brother in a context that actually explains the situation, and their mother being shitty... is not the same as only ever calling someone something. Context.

I choose the example because it’s from Jon’s POV and shows consistent behavior as well as that it hurt his feelings.

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

you did pick a topic worthy of discussion. So why not discuss it?

I completely agree with this sentiment... and deleted a similar comment I was going to make because it wasn’t nice.

If you actually believe something, either get off your high horse and talk it out, or leave and don’t, but spare us the woe is me nonsense.

[Moonmoon]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Bran calls Jon his 'bastard brother'. Was Bran cruel to Jon?

And what about all the other times jon thinks of her rather fondly? He imagined her reaction to the wall (that she would have called it an enchantment) along with arya's. Jon remembers and uses sansa's advice about complimenting a girl's name. He thinks of her singing and brushing lady's fur. The last one is definitely a fond memory of hers because it is mentioned alongside endearing memories of his other siblings like arya's messy hair and snow melting in robb's hair. 

Yes, jon doesn't think of her as often as others as they weren't close but that doesn't mean he hates her or she was cruel to him. He does resent her calling him half brother but he also has resentment towards robb who told him he can't be lord of winterfell. If sansa was horrible to him, why does he miss her or never have a negative memory of her? He doesn't miss catelyn for sure.

[lAPPYc]

30 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

Have you ever seen Jon feel any resentment because of this? Because there are two ways of calling Jon a bastard brother. One is the cruel way, and the other is just stating the truth. True, none of these is a good way, but Sansa is a product of her society. Calling this cruel is stretching it too far. I seriously don't see any parallels to Cersei and Sansa. Sansa helps the helpless, even at the risk of her own beating, and Cersei is the one doing the beating. When Sansa sees Yoren, she feels sorry for Jon, stating the exact reasons that tormented Jon on his way north. She and him both were sorry that Jon wouldn't get a company of honorable, and clean, people like Benjen, but unwashed rogues like Yoren. This conception of Sansa hating Jon that fans have is completely wrong, just like saying that she has no empathy, or is dumb.

And Sansa had told Ned the entire true story, which is why he brought her to Arya's interrogation in the first place. It was when the time came to name her betrothed or her sister a liar in front half the castle and the king and the queen that she chose to clam up. Either way, this didn't change anything for Mycah, who died because of Joffrey. Now I know she didn't feel any remorse for Mycah, but the feudal society of Westeros didn't allow butcher's boys to cross swords with noblewomen. It's the reason why Mycah died, he'd stepped above his station. In Sansa's mind, Mycah was a culprit. It's not right, but it's that society. It doesn't make her evil, just a product of that society. It certainly makes her a somewhat cold person, but evil is pushing someone in the well just because you are jealous.

[Springwatch]

A favoured bastard of a lord ranks very high in Westeros society; Bran is not insulting Jon even in thought - he's saying how things are. It's a sore point with Jon, because Ned put him on a level with his own children, and Cat resented that - an impossible situation. In any event, Sansa's 'half brother' would probably have pleased Jon more that Bran's 'bastard'.

17 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

Now I know she didn't feel any remorse for Mycah

Nor should she - she did nothing to him, and she couldn't have saved him if she tried.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

50 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

Have you ever seen Jon feel any resentment because of this?

The quote above shows resentment, she’s the only sibling he misses with reservations. Jon feels a real sense of love for and duty to his family, even Sansa, despite having never felt he was treated as one of them.

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Because there are two ways of calling Jon a bastard brother. One is the cruel way, and the other is just stating the truth. True, none of these is a good way, but Sansa is a product of her society.

And yet we see how differently characters in the story behave... we can make excuses and try to explain why Sansa is that way, but it doesn’t make the behavior less repugnant.

The difference between this example of Bran and Sansa only ever calling him that couldn’t be more stark (see what I did there). Can you imagine Bran calling Jon a bastard to his face all the time? I can’t 

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Calling this cruel is stretching it too far. I seriously don't see any parallels to Cersei and Sansa. Sansa helps the helpless, even at the risk of her own beating, and Cersei is the one doing the beating.

They aren’t the same, but I think there are parallels... Kevan has fond memories of Cersei when she was young, and maybe that’s just sexist “oh she was a pretty little thing”, or maybe not. But seeing the circumstances which made an innocent into a villain could be an appealing story arc.

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When Sansa sees Yoren, she feels sorry for Jon, stating the exact reasons that tormented Jon on his way north. She and him both were sorry that Jon wouldn't get a company of honorable, and clean, people like Benjen, but unwashed rogues like Yoren. This conception of Sansa hating Jon that fans have is completely wrong, just like saying that she has no empathy, or is dumb.

Yoren is a good man.

This is a great example of Sansa being superficial... she doesn’t like him because he’s dirty, her thinking goes little deeper than that.

I don’t think Sansa hates Jon, it’s more that she looks down on and doesn’t care about him... like Mycah, or her best friend Jeyne Poole.

She shows very little empathy at all in my recollection, but if you want to show examples, maybe I’m forgetting some...

I wouldn’t say stupid, but not really any signs of cleverness either.

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And Sansa had told Ned the entire true story, which is why he brought her to Arya's interrogation in the first place.

This isn’t in the book as far as I know, we have no idea what she told Ned before his POV. But given the later conversation between Arya and Ned when he finds out about needle, I find it very hard to believe.

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 It was when the time came to name her betrothed or her sister a liar in front half the castle and the king and the queen that she chose to clam up.

The moments that define our lives usually pass in the blink of an eye.

But in this case she had days to think about it, you seem to think talk to Ned about it, and worry about her sister. 

On the one hand are honesty and loyalty while on the other is selfishness. This is the sort of telling decision about character I find hard to ignore.

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Either way, this didn't change anything for Mycah, who died because of Joffrey. Now I know she didn't feel any remorse for Mycah, but the feudal society of Westeros didn't allow butcher's boys to cross swords with noblewomen. It's the reason why Mycah died, he'd stepped above his station. In Sansa's mind, Mycah was a culprit. It's not right, but it's that society. It doesn't make her evil, just a product of that society. It certainly makes her a somewhat cold person, but evil is pushing someone in the well just because you are jealous.

I will never excuse someone’s behavior because it was just that day and age, or they were just following orders, when it comes to murdering innocent people... that’s some Nazi excuse bullshit.

But in this case everyone else from the North seems to see how fucked up this whole thing was... she’s grown up with these people all her life... it’s some heartless shit not to care about the kids death, let alone Jeyne’s dad, or Jeyne herself! And Jory’s fate still makes me upset!!!

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

46 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

A favoured bastard of a lord ranks very high in Westeros society; Bran is not insulting Jon even in thought - he's saying how things are. It's a sore point with Jon, because Ned put him on a level with his own children, and Cat resented that - an impossible situation. In any event, Sansa's 'half brother' would probably have pleased Jon more that Bran's 'bastard'.

She never called him anything else... that’s not normal behavior!

Sansa using the prim and proper “half-brother” instead of “bastard” fits right in with her character... but still isn’t a nice way to constantly talk about someone.

Ned wanted to raise Rob and Jon as brothers... Cat blamed a child for some perceived sin committed by a woman he never knew. Nothing impossible about that situation, plenty of people have raised children who are not their own... but this isn’t about Cat. When Ned died you better believe I wanted to scream “it should have been you”!

I really do hope Jon gets to be the one to finish her off.

Anyway, it’s been fun, happy Friday!