Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sansa is clearly responsible for the wights, and winter, and parking tickets.

Kust kidding, those are all Cat’s fault.

Hahaha, this is a pretty accurate representation of a lot of fans attitudes. good one.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Me too; the pack reunites. But I'm only now starting to think their dead ancestors might be a source of help also.

I had forgotten these, and they're important because they seem perfectly revived, whereas poor Beric was fading away mentally.

There's so little we know about ghosts. There are many dreams of ghosts (Jaime's mother, Dany's kings, Theon's feast of the dead...) I do believe there are spirits trapped in the living world - in the weirwoods, and ravens, probably in the Wall and the Stark tombs. I'm not sure how conscious they are - the natural course of death seems to be the spirit fading, dispersing, but magical means slow the process down. But I'd be surprised if they were all as lucid as the dream ghosts.

I remember now Rickon took a sword from a dead king too, much earlier, when he was sulking among the tombs with Shaggydog. I wonder if that sword was ever put back correctly.

Ah, that is a tough point. Bran has a powerful mind, and the rest are wargs too, but if Sansa's going to have an extended interaction with the Others, I think she's going to be sort-of-dead. Definitely more dead than the usual metaphorical death and rebirth. I think this because there's a lot of dreaming in her chapters, a lot of going to bed and giving herself to the darkness, a lot of waking only at the dawn. There's even a touch of Snow White in Cat's thought: Will they lay Sansa down naked beneath the Iron Throne after they have killed her? Will her skin seem as white, her blood as red? (ASOS). (Not my idea this, it's from the forum somewhere.)

And of course many other characters feel like ghosts at some point in the story (Tyrion, Arya...), and many others have a white-eyed moment, which sounds pretty dead to me. So far, we've not seen a way to return from the land of the dead as a normal, fully living person. I'm only half expecting there will be such a way.

The short answer is that I never heard a good theory to explain Sansa's reaction to Ilyn Payne, and it's so very extreme, that there must be something there. Foreshadowing would be a good explanation, but who could Ilyn represent? He's pretty extraordinary already: 'With his grim face and deep-sunk hollow eyes, Ser Ilyn might have passed for death himself ... as he had, for years.' (AFFC). Pox scars mean his face is cratered like the face of the moon. The rest of him is close to a living skeleton waving a death's head sword.

The longer answer is that I think the level of foreshadowing, metaphor, codes etc is absolutely intense - like every adjective, every incident is coded to some larger scheme. Realism is hardly important at all. It's crazy, but not as crazy as trying to believe everything GRRM writes. So I take a lot of things to be foreshadowing. I'll have to think about this some more before I start piling everything in.

Yes, I have never seen this idea posed before. That the ancestral Starks might actually have some influence on the battles. 

Regarding Fire Wights; Beric has been revived 6 times and tells us that each time he looses a little bit of himself. But it seems that the first time he was probably pretty much the same guy as before and that each subsequent death and revival caused his loss of self. Cat died in an exceptionally traumatic manner. And seems like Beric fixated on her last endeavour. Vengance in her case. Protecting the smallfolk of the RL's in Berics. LSH might not be as mindless as many assume though, she doesn't speak and is harsh but that doesn't mean she is thoughtless of unconsidered in her choices.  I wonder though if we are seeing an aspect of this fixation in Mellisandre too; her focus on AAR and the war against the great other as she see's it is her sole focus. If she has only died once and did so in the service of R'hllorism and seeking out AAR that might explain her more full conscious. And her fixation on her task. Ditto Moqorro. If he has only come back once, and again was given a goal prior to his death it would explain his dedication in getting to Dany and bringing her into R'hllorism.

I personally think Moqorro was killed and resurrected precisely so that he could do this task. If say Benerro saw in the flames the storm and wreckage and Victarion's mission etc he might have decided to send a priest to be there at that place and time and saw that he would need a fire wight for that task. Thus created one. 

And I think Mellisandre was made a fire wight long ago before magic ebbed away from the world the last time. And that her becoming one might have something to do with her sect which she briefly mentions in her POV chapter. A sect dedicated to searching for AAR. 

The idea of Ghosts is so interesting and yes we know very little. I'm interested in hearing anything further you come up with on that topic. 

yes he did take one, I wonder if it got put back properly? Interesting. 

This is some interesting stuff! People so often overlook the magic aspects of Sansa's story. I am of the mind that she slipped a falcon at the Eyrie briefly and actually saw Marillion in his sky cell, and there is further language in her chapters which link her to the birds of prey, and as I said up thread I think she will claim a Merlin. I like the idea of her as the little bird, a spy master who truly can have eyes and ears anywhere via her familiar. I've never seen anyone proposing a dreamer type aspect with her before though and I have to admit my ears prick up at the thought I've always seen her as a definite candidate for series survival though so I'm disinclined to believe she'll die die.

I think she will be the way House Stark survives. Rickon is imo definitely going to die. The clue was always in his wolfs name after all. There is a lot of talk in world of winter chills and fevers taking younger children when winter descends and I think the idea of him popping his cloggs due to such in line with the shaggy dog story. A lot of build up which comes to nought. Arya too is destined to die if we look at the sewing through winter quote. And Bran is probably incapable of fathering children. So Sansa is the only hope for House Stark and that is kinda reflected in the Bael the Bard and the Winter Rose story.  

Her story on a personal to her level is all about agency and sexuality. And I definitely see her choosing her own husband after having been betrothed and wed willy nilly by men who seek to use her claim. The idea of her taking a husband and her children being the Starks who continue the House is in fitting with her story arc.  So I don't buy into her dying. But I think what you are trying to suggest isn't a death as such, but a period of unconsciousness? Yes? This is an interesting idea as so far Bran has had this, Jon looks likely to be about to have one, and Arya has it in a sense through the wearing of Mercy's face, the Ugly Girls face, even the period of blindness. She is being removed from full consciousness in her own body in a way. And Jojen Reed gained his green dreaming abillity whilst fevered and unconscious. So there may be a link to sensory or conscious deprivation and the ignition of magic abilities.  If she were to have a snow white type experience this could trigger some deeper powers I suppose. Do you have any solid quotes to review which might offer clues for this idea? As always I am interested in exploring the magical side of the story. 

[Ygrain]

On 27. 4. 2018 at 2:49 AM, Lollygag said:

I like Tyrion, but I'd have choice words for someone who'd expect me to have empathy for a man to whom I'd been forced to marry. And even choicer words when that man's family and himself were at war with my family effectively destroying it.

Amen to that. Yes, Tyrion is relatively nice, for a Lannister - and Sansa is a traumatised thirteen-year-old. Had she lived with Tyrion for years, without Joff and Cersei's toxic influence, she might have grown to such maturity, but given her age and circumstances, I don't see how anyone can blame her for not liking Tyrion enough.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Interesting. It's curious that the citizens of Westeros talk about the Others a lot (as in 'the Others take you! etc), but not much about wights, even in stories.  When the great ranging was attacked by wights, the warning was given as three blasts of the horn, the signal for the Others.

It's likely the Westerosi are just as confused as we are.

Yes, I forgot about the three blasts thing. But since there doesn't seem to be a signal for wights as opposed to Others, I would imagine the horn blower just went with what he knew. And that's even if he knew exactly what was attacking at that point, since it's unlikely that he had ever seen either a wight or an Other before.

Judging by Sam's recollections of the battle, however, it doesn't appear that there were any Others present, just wights. Of course, just because he didn't see any doesn't mean they weren't there, directing the attack.

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Oh good, this is exactly what I find useful when looking at individual aspects of the story. Collate everything that anyone has ever said or insinuated and try to see what the truth is!  

Sorry that link doesn't seem to take us to anything GRRM has said on the matter but is a book review site? Am I missing something?

 

Yes, That's right isn't it Tormund calls them their masters which implies some Wildling knowledge or folk law about them. 

Might the Others control the wights "remotely" like Bran sitting in his tree controlling what the Ravens say in Stannis's camp for instance. Or BR controlling Mormonts raven? 

That link should take you to a write-up about the creation of the GoT graphic novel. The relevant quote is:

Quote

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up images of the things around it like a clear, blue pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one email: "The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful ... think, oh ... the Sidhe made of ice, something like that ... a different sort of life ... inhuman, elegant, dangerous."

As for Tormund, he never says exactly who or what are the wight's masters. He talks about when the white mist rises and how can you kill a mist, but since there is no mention of mists at either encounter with the Others, it's hard to really suss out what he's talking about here.

So, to my thinking, there are three possibilities regarding the relationship between the wights and Others:

1) The Others raise the wights and control their actions

2) The Others do not raise or control the wights but they are in league with the same dark power that does control them

3) The Others and wights have nothing to do with each other, and in fact the Others may be fleeing from the same power that controls the wights.

Sorry if this is leading us a little off-topic, but if we are talking about Sansa's ability to withstand mind-control by the Others, I just felt it was important to note that we are not certain that the Others even have this capability.

[Springwatch]

On 02/05/2018 at 10:11 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, I have never seen this idea posed before. That the ancestral Starks might actually have some influence on the battles. 

And again, it's an idea from Tolkein, who did it literally, so GRRM's version would be a bit the same, and a bit different...

Quote

Regarding Fire Wights; Beric has been revived 6 times and tells us that each time he looses a little bit of himself. But it seems that the first time he was probably pretty much the same guy as before and that each subsequent death and revival caused his loss of self. Cat died in an exceptionally traumatic manner. And seems like Beric fixated on her last endeavour. Vengance in her case. Protecting the smallfolk of the RL's in Berics. LSH might not be as mindless as many assume though, she doesn't speak and is harsh but that doesn't mean she is thoughtless of unconsidered in her choices.  I wonder though if we are seeing an aspect of this fixation in Mellisandre too; her focus on AAR and the war against the great other as she see's it is her sole focus. If she has only died once and did so in the service of R'hllorism and seeking out AAR that might explain her more full conscious. And her fixation on her task. Ditto Moqorro. If he has only come back once, and again was given a goal prior to his death it would explain his dedication in getting to Dany and bringing her into R'hllorism.

I personally think Moqorro was killed and resurrected precisely so that he could do this task. If say Benerro saw in the flames the storm and wreckage and Victarion's mission etc he might have decided to send a priest to be there at that place and time and saw that he would need a fire wight for that task. Thus created one. 

And I think Mellisandre was made a fire wight long ago before magic ebbed away from the world the last time. And that her becoming one might have something to do with her sect which she briefly mentions in her POV chapter. A sect dedicated to searching for AAR. 

This has been very enlightening; I've never really thought about fire wights before. Could an ice wight be as intelligent and independent as Mel and Moqorro? I'm thinking of Coldhands here - maybe he is no more or less than the standard wight, but with the mental shackles taken off.

I also feel I understand Mel better as a wight. She thinks clearly, but has this enormous blind spot on Stannis, which could be pre-programmed in, i.e. you will find AA on Dragonstone. It might be on the level of a hypnotic experiment I heard of - participants were asked to walk across a room, having been hypnotised to believe the way was clear, though in fact a chair was in the way. They all walked around the chair, but at the same time denied it was there and gave other reasons for taking the long way round the room. This to me is an example of being independent and controlled at the same time.

Quote

This is some interesting stuff! People so often overlook the magic aspects of Sansa's story. I am of the mind that she slipped a falcon at the Eyrie briefly and actually saw Marillion in his sky cell, and there is further language in her chapters which link her to the birds of prey, and as I said up thread I think she will claim a Merlin. I like the idea of her as the little bird, a spy master who truly can have eyes and ears anywhere via her familiar. I've never seen anyone proposing a dreamer type aspect with her before though and I have to admit my ears prick up at the thought I've always seen her as a definite candidate for series survival though so I'm disinclined to believe she'll die die.

The early books are full of Sansa describing things as magical; it's a hint to the future I think. Another hint might be her very real cognitive dissonance in seeing Cersei and Joff as kind and noble in spite of their very obvious past failings. In the scene after Cersei's coup, Sansa comes into the room traumatised, but polite.  Cersei puts on a big effort to charm her, and succeeds. Sansa goes out thinking Cersei is kind and Joffrey is noble - she is bewitched.

She's not going to be a victim forever though; her identity as a singer and a writer are powerful metaphors of someone who can change history, and I bet she'll have the help to do it; that image of the lady with her hawk and her hounds is too good to resist.

Quote

I think she will be the way House Stark survives. Rickon is imo definitely going to die. The clue was always in his wolfs name after all. There is a lot of talk in world of winter chills and fevers taking younger children when winter descends and I think the idea of him popping his cloggs due to such in line with the shaggy dog story. A lot of build up which comes to nought. Arya too is destined to die if we look at the sewing through winter quote. And Bran is probably incapable of fathering children. So Sansa is the only hope for House Stark and that is kinda reflected in the Bael the Bard and the Winter Rose story.  

I'm not sure of anything any more on who dies and who survives; just that it can't be everyone! I don't hold out much hope for Rickon, he hasn't got any mental defences at all.

Quote

Her story on a personal to her level is all about agency and sexuality. And I definitely see her choosing her own husband after having been betrothed and wed willy nilly by men who seek to use her claim. The idea of her taking a husband and her children being the Starks who continue the House is in fitting with her story arc. 

Yes, that's what I want, and mostly what I expect (except in gloomy moments). I think she's got more suitors on the horizon though - it's her thing - and let's not forget what very weird things weddings can be: Dany walks into a pyre, Hotah is married to his axe... could get interesting.

Quote

 If she were to have a snow white type experience this could trigger some deeper powers I suppose. Do you have any solid quotes to review which might offer clues for this idea? As always I am interested in exploring the magical side of the story. 

ETA

Tricky, but the forum has been very productive on this (as always!). There are a lot of small connections to Snow White: friendship with dwarves, an evil stepmother, a poisoned comb in the hair, possibly a hunter seeking her heart (I'm thinking of the hunting of the white hart, the deer among wolves, Ramsay's hunting of the maidens etc; and all the heart mentions, of course). The thing that interests me most is Snow White's crystal coffin, because conversations here and elsewhere have convinced me that crystals are a marker of coercive control, a prison for the mind.

(This is not the post I planned to write, but I'm out of time, so I'll come back to it.)

[Springwatch]

20 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

...

So, to my thinking, there are three possibilities regarding the relationship between the wights and Others:

1) The Others raise the wights and control their actions

2) The Others do not raise or control the wights but they are in league with the same dark power that does control them

3) The Others and wights have nothing to do with each other, and in fact the Others may be fleeing from the same power that controls the wights.

Sorry if this is leading us a little off-topic, but if we are talking about Sansa's ability to withstand mind-control by the Others, I just felt it was important to note that we are not certain that the Others even have this capability.

It's good. Whenever GRRM has taken us to a new landscape, it's been fully fleshed out. The Ironborn and the Slavers started out as cardboard villains, but when we get there, we learn they have factions and desires like everybody else. (And both of them would make good proxies for the Others, when you're as keen on foreshadowing as I am.)

[Damon_Tor]

On 4/25/2018 at 1:03 PM, ToysoldierXIII said:

We've followed Jon, has it every struck you that he was jealous of his siblings?

... yes?

I mean, not to the point where he makes bad choices because of it, but yeah, he's obviously jealous of them. Don't his chapters outright say that he he is? Who wouldn't be jealous? It would be weird if he wasn't.

[zandru]

On 5/1/2018 at 3:45 PM, Springwatch said:

The short answer is that I never heard a good theory to explain Sansa's reaction to Ilyn Payne, and it's so very extreme, that there must be something there.

Not to change the subject, but this part has always gnawed at me, too, but for different reasons. Sansa looks at Payne and feels scared, stepping back slightly. No indication that Payne so much as noticed her. She steps into the strong, momentarily reassuring hands of the Hound - and screams, runs off and hugs her direwolf in terror because she doesn't like his face. Okay; nobody does. So then Sansa goes up to Illyn Payne and apologizes prettily for an offense that he probably wasn't even aware she'd given him. Yet never a word to the Hound, or a thought by Sansa that she might need to say something to him about her much more extreme reaction.

Later, she's always surprised by how grumpy he is around her...

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I also feel I understand Mel better as a wight. She thinks clearly, but has this enormous blind spot on Stannis, which could be pre-programmed in, i.e. you will find AA on Dragonstone. It might be on the level of a hypnotic experiment I heard of - participants were asked to walk across a room, having been hypnotised to believe the way was clear, though in fact a chair was in the way. They all walked around the chair, but at the same time denied it was there and gave other reasons for taking the long way round the room. This to me is an example of being independent and controlled at the same time.

It has long been my suspicion that the reason Mel did not succumb to the strangler is that she is already dead and has no need of breathing.

[ToysoldierXIII]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:10 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've not read the majority of the thread so I'm not clear on what has and has not yet been discussed. The OP just had me rolling my eyes so much I saw the inside of my skull. 

This has been a far more interesting conversation than the usual Oh My Gosh Sansa is such a shallow horrid cow and she must die crap I much prefer these interesting discussions to OMG it was her fault Ned died!!!!!

Maybe you actually should read the thread.

It is nuts to me that I came here and said Sansa is one of the most intriguing characters in fiction yet your delusional mind saw "shallow horrid cow."

Feel free to dispute it once you are done with all your imagined slights talking points. Find a psychologist that disagrees with my analysis. I'll wait.

This discussion is about if/how she can overcome it and/or how it will come into play in the future. If you'd like to join that we'd be glad to have you; if you are only going to claim that Sansa is a flawless Mary Sue who will slay dragons and throw a small moon at the Others then don't bother.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Not to change the subject, but this part has always gnawed at me, too, but for different reasons. Sansa looks at Payne and feels scared, stepping back slightly. No indication that Payne so much as noticed her. She steps into the strong, momentarily reassuring hands of the Hound - and screams, runs off and hugs her direwolf in terror because she doesn't like his face. Okay; nobody does. So then Sansa goes up to Illyn Payne and apologizes prettily for an offense that he probably wasn't even aware she'd given him. Yet never a word to the Hound, or a thought by Sansa that she might need to say something to him about her much more extreme reaction.

Later, she's always surprised by how grumpy he is around her...

Ok, that must have stung. He does the gallant thing for once, and it all goes wrong. He should have remembered that he's made a career as a professional monster (check the helmet), and the switch to nice guy is probably a long-term project. He is exceptionally grumpy at the next meeting.

It's not just the apology to Ser Ilyn; she went all gooey when Joffrey 'rescued' her, which must have irritated Sandor beyond measure, because he knows exactly how worthless Joff's 'gallantry' is.

She won't look at him either at this stage; she'll look at Ilyn, but not at him: No meeting of eyes, no meeting of minds, it seems.

[Springwatch]

8 minutes ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

This discussion is about if/how she can overcome it and/or how it will come into play in the future.

Ok, so what do you think of the discussion so far?

[zandru]

2 minutes ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

This discussion is about if/how she can overcome it and/or how it will come into play in the future.

This really is the key. CAN Sansa overcome her cognitive dissonance? WILL she start seeing with her eyes, etc? WHEN will she begin to remember events honestly, instead of rewriting her most painful memories to depict herself as the Beautiful Young Princess of Song? WHAT might trigger this change in her?

Honestly, from what I've read so far, I think Sansa is more likely to take the Cersei route. But I'm not the one to decide! We're all waiting on George RR for future developments! And remember, his past history indicates that he loves to surprise.

For example, I wasn't too attached to Theon in the first book or so. His return to Pyke and subsequent antics made me strongly dislike him. But his torture by Ramsey and transformation to Reek (no! that's too much punishment!!) has caused me to sympathize with him at last. Never Gregor, though.  ;-)

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

[...] If you'd like to join that we'd be glad to have you; if you are only going to claim that Sansa is a flawless Mary Sue who will slay dragons and throw a small moon at the Others then don't bother.

And maybe you should read The Weirwoods Eye's posts, because that has not been said in any of them.

 

[The Mother of The Others]

I think the far north is home to another order of life that re-organizes the ice crystals into Others and then seeks to apply this to everything else it encounters, such as our dead, which is why we built the wall.   Not just to halt specific Others but to halt this 2nd Order of Life from speading its infestation over the globe like the ghost grass example in essos.  So...what if after it sinks its roots into a region the dead in that region just rise because the ambient energies of Life2 are present, re- ordering all the foreign matter.   Life2 is Not able to reformat us living specimens of Life Type 1, but once we die and go inanimate, it is able to incorporate us / reanimate us into its grand design of crystal- encrusting everything.   The hive mind of the wights = multiple facets on a snowflake spun into a mathematical design.  So Others slay us Not out of super special spite, just the spite with which you swat an ant that Doesn't Belong in the house because it's not your kind of living thing.  But once a bunch of ants have been Rearranged, put into an antfarm, you have no trouble with them being on the countertop anymore because they've been slaved to your vision of how things should be orderly in the house.  ...Now what about the trees?

The woken trees, the ones that seem to be reaching out to incorporate the world into their OdinEye Root Zone the way the Northern Wastes seem to reorder things into Cold Life.  It's as if the weir's evolution has been influenced by Life Type 2.   Directly or indirectly is the question.  Nature evolved the pollenating plants and their insect pollenators into a teamwork arrangement....  it also developed thorns to deal with some bugs.  So which is it here?  Are the weirwoods where Life2 met up with Life1 and started to hit things off, feel each other out, with nature managing to harmonize a working relationship between two different orders of life?!    Or what if the trees are nature's anxious defensive reaction to its deadly run- ins with Cold Life..... nature feared mass extinction unless it adapted to defend its perimeter by putting watchdog trees in place, with psi- laden roots as barriers that can disrupt the progress of cold life, so that It Can't Lay Down ITS ROOTS.   The weir as thorns in the Cold's path that can fight back against those foreign psi powers of crystalization.   But nature had to copy some aspects of cold life in the process of defending against it.  So now we humans are experiencing some wacky coldlife side effects (psi-effects) whenever we interect with the weirwood trees, or sleep on a weir stump.

What does all this have to do with Sansa?   Hell if I know.  I suppose she'll have very little to do with creating a bridge between 2 modes of Life.   That looks like Bran's jam.

 

But I think what you are trying to suggest [for Sansa] isn't a death as such, but a period of of unconsciousness? Yes? This is an interesting idea as so far Bran has had this, Jon looks likely to be about to have one, and Arya has it in a sense through the wearing of Mercy's face

   Whoa.   That's a new prophecy: if all the Stark kids find their way into an altered mental state around the same time, we could see a big turning point chapter of the warg- realm meeting of their minds.  A chance to get on the same page with one another, to rejoice, to plan together their resurgence, so one's efforts dovetail with the strategies of the rest and everything comes up Stark in the end , when their efforts converge.  Maybe it wouldn't all be conducted through the limited wolf consciousness either, but would seep into their human dreams so they could understand and speak to one another.  Sansa in particular may be bolstered by this revelation that there's still something to fight for, and may find the will to reclaim her identity with startling gusto.   

[Varysblackfyre321]

On April 27, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Ariel’s actions when I was younger (about 8) struck me as particularly selfish. Other Disney princesses have disobeyed their fathers, but for relatively good reasons; Belle bartered for her father’s release and Mulan took her father’s place in the army to spare him from a death in battle, while Moana’s disobedience is to do her duty to save her civilization. 

Well she is a teenager afterall-not every Disney Princess be an utter paragon; quite frankly her motivation for disobeying her patriarch is in my opinion more "ordinary" for a teenager.  I personally find Moana to be a weaker character; she's perfect in every which and never really has to evolve for the fact she is already perfect; she's beautiful, strong, selfless, kind, and a waterbender.  

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, zandru said:

Honestly, from what I've read so far, I think Sansa is more likely to take the Cersei route. But I'm not the one to decide! We're all waiting on George RR for future developments! And remember, his past history indicates that he loves to surprise.

Sansa taking the Cersei route? That's just what we need.

[Bullrout]

On 4/25/2018 at 4:03 PM, ToysoldierXIII said:

 

I thought this plot line was pretty much played out in the show and it wasn't much of anything because the show writers like to remove anything controversial about the Starks.  They're too sensitive to the backlash they got when Sansa got raped.  I would leave the show out of this talk because it's on its own universe.  

Novel wise, the next bad guy in her mind is Robin Arryn.  He's in the way of what she wants. Not that she sees him as the bad guy but he is an obstacle to her fantasy future with Harry.   I don't like Robin but I prefer him to Sansa.  He's a bratty kid but I am hoping he gets his head out of the sand soon enough to get rid of Sansa and Little Finger by way of the moon door.  Robin is a poor little weakling who never had a chance under Lysa and even less under Sansa's care.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 hours ago, zandru said:

Not to change the subject, but this part has always gnawed at me, too, but for different reasons. Sansa looks at Payne and feels scared, stepping back slightly. No indication that Payne so much as noticed her. She steps into the strong, momentarily reassuring hands of the Hound - and screams, runs off and hugs her direwolf in terror because she doesn't like his face. Okay; nobody does. So then Sansa goes up to Illyn Payne and apologizes prettily for an offense that he probably wasn't even aware she'd given him. Yet never a word to the Hound, or a thought by Sansa that she might need to say something to him about her much more extreme reaction.

Later, she's always surprised by how grumpy he is around her...

 

18 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ok, that must have stung. He does the gallant thing for once, and it all goes wrong. He should have remembered that he's made a career as a professional monster (check the helmet), and the switch to nice guy is probably a long-term project. He is exceptionally grumpy at the next meeting.

It's not just the apology to Ser Ilyn; she went all gooey when Joffrey 'rescued' her, which must have irritated Sandor beyond measure, because he knows exactly how worthless Joff's 'gallantry' is.

She won't look at him either at this stage; she'll look at Ilyn, but not at him: No meeting of eyes, no meeting of minds, it seems.

 

It is an interesting scene isn't it.  One which I was looking at recently in an analysis of Sansa leaving the north and that this scene has so much to note in it. 

Here I'll pull it together and we can take a look at it. 

Quote

"The king is gone hunting, but I know he will be pleased to see you when he returns," the queen was saying to the two knights who knelt before her, but Sansa could not take her eyes off the third man. He seemed to feel the weight of her gaze. Slowly he turned his head. Lady growled. A terror as overwhelming as anything Sansa Stark had ever felt filled her suddenly. She stepped backward and bumped into someone.

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile. "You are shaking, girl," he said, his voice rasping. "Do I frighten you so much?"

He did, and had since she had first laid eyes on the ruin that fire had made of his face, though it seemed to her now that he was not half so terrifying as the other. Still, Sansa wrenched away from him, and the Hound laughed, and Lady moved between them, rumbling a warning. Sansa dropped to her knees to wrap her arms around the wolf. They were all gathered around gaping, she could feel their eyes on her, and here and there she heard muttered comments and titters of laughter.

"A wolf," a man said, and someone else said, "Seven hells, that's a direwolf," and the first man said, "What's it doing in camp?" and the Hound's rasping voice replied, "The Starks use them for wet nurses," and Sansa realized that the two stranger knights were looking down on her and Lady, swords in their hands, and then she was frightened again, and ashamed. Tears filled her eyes.

She heard the queen say, "Joffrey, go to her."

And her prince was there.

"Leave her alone," Joffrey said. He stood over her, beautiful in blue wool and black leather, his golden curls shining in the sun like a crown. He gave her his hand, drew her to her feet. "What is it, sweet lady? Why are you afraid? No one will hurt you. Put away your swords, all of you. The wolf is her little pet, that's all." He looked at Sandor Clegane. "And you, dog, away with you, you're scaring my betrothed."

The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid away quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen. "It was not him, my sweet prince," she tried to explain. "It was the other one."

The two stranger knights exchanged a look. "Payne?" chuckled the young man in the green armor.

The older man in white spoke to Sansa gently. "Ofttimes Ser Ilyn frightens me as well, sweet lady. He has a fearsome aspect."

"As well he should." The queen had descended from the wheelhouse. The spectators parted to make way for her. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice, you have put the wrong man in the office."

Sansa finally found her words. "Then surely you have chosen the right one, Your Grace," she said, and a gale of laughter erupted all around her.

"Well spoken, child," said the old man in white. "As befits the daughter of Eddard Stark. I am honored to know you, however irregular the manner of our meeting. I am Ser Barristan Selmy, of the Kingsguard." He bowed.

Sansa knew the name, and now the courtesies that Septa Mordane had taught her over the years came back to her. "The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard," she said, "and councillor to Robert our king and to Aerys Targaryen before him. The honor is mine, good knight. Even in the far north, the singers praise the deeds of Barristan the Bold."

The green knight laughed again. "Barristan the Old, you mean. Don't flatter him too sweetly, child, he thinks overmuch of himself already." He smiled at her. "Now, wolf girl, if you can put a name to me as well, then I must concede that you are truly our Hand's daughter."

Joffrey stiffened beside her. "Have a care how you address my betrothed."

"I can answer," Sansa said quickly, to quell her prince's anger. She smiled at the green knight. "Your helmet bears golden antlers, my lord. The stag is the sigil of the royal House. King Robert has two brothers. By your extreme youth, you can only be Renly Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End and councillor to the king, and so I name you."

Ser Barristan chuckled. "By his extreme youth, he can only be a prancing jackanapes, and so I name him."

There was general laughter, led by Lord Renly himself. The tension of a few moments ago was gone, and Sansa was beginning to feel comfortable … until Ser Ilyn Payne shouldered two men aside, and stood before her, unsmiling. He did not say a word. Lady bared her teeth and began to growl, a low rumble full of menace, but this time Sansa silenced the wolf with a gentle hand to the head. "I am sorry if I offended you, Ser Ilyn," she said.

She waited for an answer, but none came. As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Still silent, he turned and walked away.

Now when I was looking at this scene I was doing so with her relationship with Lady in mind and also with a view to what would happen to her in KL. I too have always been struck by the power of her ill feeling towards Ilyn Payne. And would love to get to the bottom of it. 

As to how she reacts to Sandor.  Think about how later on he still thinks that she is afraid to look on him? In the blackwater scene she closes her eyes in anticipation of a kiss but he reads it as revulsion. This inability for the two of them to clarify how they feel around each other is a classic tool in romances. A comedy of errors if you will that prevents the couple from uniting too early on in the story and has to be worked through in order for them to finally come together towards the end. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

19 hours ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

Maybe you actually should read the thread.

It is nuts to me that I came here and said Sansa is one of the most intriguing characters in fiction yet your delusional mind saw "shallow horrid cow."

Feel free to dispute it once you are done with all your imagined slights talking points. Find a psychologist that disagrees with my analysis. I'll wait.

This discussion is about if/how she can overcome it and/or how it will come into play in the future. If you'd like to join that we'd be glad to have you; if you are only going to claim that Sansa is a flawless Mary Sue who will slay dragons and throw a small moon at the Others then don't bother.

Your OP was scathing about Sansa. I found that tedious, as you tried to dress it up as a fair and balanced analysis. But went on to slate her. You also said that you didn't want anyone to disagree with you which basically comes across as "If you don't agree with me shut up and go away"

How about you find one that agrees? I'll wait. 

When did I ever claim she is a flawless mary sue? or that she will slay dragons and throw a small moon at the others? 

I actually agree that Sansa has cog dis at some points in the story and that is why she doesn't acknowledge how horrible Cersei & Joffrey are right away. But the blinkers fall from her eyes pretty fast on that one. And it is a lesson well learnt. 

She doesn't show it again as far as I can tell, her feelings about LF could I suppose be twisted to look like Cog Dis but really she tells us in her POV that she is confused by him and doesn't know which version of him to believe in. That she knows she can not trust him even though he shows her kindness and pruports to be her saviour. She's actively fighting against the urge to believe the version of himself he wants her to see. 

I really do not have the time to read back through 7 pages but should you care to give me a report of the highs and lows a TL;DR if you like I'd be happy to join in. I am joining in though as you can see I've contributed to some interesting discussion on the thread so far.