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Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance


ToysoldierXIII

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7 hours ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

 

It's obvious Sansa disliked his looks. Tyrion says he had to wear pijama in summer because she's having disgusting look at him. Not only that, but she's afraid of ugly Hound and head over heels over handsome Loras.

 

When she recollects her childhood memories when Marillion was in jail (I'm not sure on location), she says she loved songs because of singer who comes to Winterfell once and that she prayed to gods to send her singer back, or better yet, handsome one. I believe she said "better yet, handsome one", but I didn't read book in English and I don't have quote to guide you.

 

She was totally shallow, it's questionable whether or not she still is, she wasn't little girl in Feast.

She was afraid of the hound because of his anger. It was sandor who misunderstood that she was afraid of his face. 

What's wrong with 11-12 year olds fantasizing about a blond heartthrob? It's equivalent to teenage fangirls crushing on one direction or justin bieber.

Sansa did find tyrion ugly but her main issue with him was that he was a lannister. Lannisters that slaughtered her whole family. She owed him nothing. And tyrion IS super ugly. Not only ugly but horribly disfigured too! Why is it wrong for a 12 year old little girl to not be attracted to an ugly man? And why does it only make her shallow and not tyrion who only likes beautiful women? Because she's a woman? Grown up man like tyrion can desire for beautiful women without being judged but sansa is shallow when she hopes for a handsome guy like one in her songs?

In agot, she wanted an attractive partner like any normal teenager wishes for. When joffery showed his true colors, she started to find him repulsive. She is the same girl who was ready to marry an older crippled man and fantasizes about the ugly hound. Just because she isn't attracted to tyrion doesn't make her shallow. I don't think any female character from the book will find him attractive. 

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5 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Re: Tyrion, Penny fancies him

I was thinking more of pov female characters from the series like dany, arya, asha, brienne etc. But yeah penny, a dwarf, likes him! Saint tyrion is so lucky! He always wanted a (...attractive) woman to truly love him! So what does tyrion think of her? I hope he's attracted to her too! You know you have to find unattractive people attractive if you don't want to be called a horrible and shallow person. ;)

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Why is Sansa shallow for not wanting a naked adult male in her bed with his naked erect penis every morning reminding her that he wants to have sex with her? Potentially touching her in the night as they both move around in their sleep. Yeah she is so shallow for not wanting that rather disturbing intrusion into her personal space.  In what way is her asserting her autonomy over who she has sex with shallow or bigoted? Isn't our autonomy over sex a basic human right? And why do people call Sansa shallow and bigoted but give Tyrion a free pass, Tyrion who only wants to sleep with sexy and normal sized women, who rejects Penny because she is a dwarf? Who considers Lollys beneath him. 

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23 hours ago, Springwatch said:

 

One more angle on the merlin - its name is exceptionally close to 'merling' (meaning, 'of the sea'?), a term that's popping up with some frequency (merling king, merling queen, merling rocks....) Sansa already has her own 'mer' reference from Patchface - 'The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed....' (nennymoans -> sea anemones (a stinging 'sea flower') -> the amethyst hair net). Anyway, when the time of Patchface's prophecies arrives, a merlin ally would be a good thing to have.

 

When I see "merlin" I think of the wizard. And if you're familiar with the Earthsea books the Archmage is known as Sparrowhawk. Coincidence? I think not.

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7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Why is Sansa shallow for not wanting a naked adult male in her bed with his naked erect penis every morning reminding her that he wants to have sex with her? Potentially touching her in the night as they both move around in their sleep. Yeah she is so shallow for not wanting that rather disturbing intrusion into her personal space.  In what way is her asserting her autonomy over who she has sex with shallow or bigoted? Isn't our autonomy over sex a basic human right? And why do people call Sansa shallow and bigoted but give Tyrion a free pass, Tyrion who only wants to sleep with sexy and normal sized women, who rejects Penny because she is a dwarf? Who considers Lollys beneath him. 

For every Sansa-hater there's a Tyrion-hater. It sort of evens out.

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On 5/19/2018 at 10:19 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

 

It's obvious Sansa disliked his looks. Tyrion says he had to wear pijama in summer because she's having disgusting look at him. Not only that, but she's afraid of ugly Hound and head over heels over handsome Loras.

 

When she recollects her childhood memories when Marillion was in jail (I'm not sure on location), she says she loved songs because of singer who comes to Winterfell once and that she prayed to gods to send her singer back, or better yet, handsome one. I believe she said "better yet, handsome one", but I didn't read book in English and I don't have quote to guide you.

 

She was totally shallow, it's questionable whether or not she still is, she wasn't little girl in Feast.

Of course she disliked his looks.  Almost anyone would.  However, the main reason she dislikes him is because he is a Lannister.  You remember, the ones who destroyed her family and forced her to marry him in the first place?  She has no reason to like him, based on what she knows.

As for judging people on looks, Joffrey taught her that looks aren't everything; not by a long shot.  While her character in AGOT was a bit shallow, she has grown greatly since then.

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49 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Of course she disliked his looks.  Almost anyone would.  However, the main reason she dislikes him is because he is a Lannister.  You remember, the ones who destroyed her family and forced her to marry him in the first place?  She has no reason to like him, based on what she knows.

As for judging people on looks, Joffrey taught her that looks aren't everything; not by a long shot.  While her character in AGOT was a bit shallow, she has grown greatly since then.

ACOK Sansa II

She flew along the river walk, past the small kitchen, and through the pig yard, her hurried footsteps lost beneath the squealing of the hogs in their pens. Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he'll keep me safe, my Florian. The songs about Florian and Jonquil were her very favorites. Florian was homely too, though not so old.

 

Agree. If her very favorite songs were about the homely Florian the Fool and the maiden Jonquil, then she wasn't ever that shallow to begin with.

(On the side, never noticed the part before about the kitchen and the pigs. The way it's described, Sansa is among the pigs and being by the kitchen, they are to be butchered/sacrificed. Had mixed feelings as to Dontos' motives, but now my view of them is darker than before.)

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15 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

For every Sansa-hater there's a Tyrion-hater. It sort of evens out.

Hahaha; I don't hate Tyrion at all I really like him. But I do find myself pointing out his huge gaping flaws a lot. He's a character that many read without seeing his faults because of how he is presented to us. 

 

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1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Hahaha; I don't hate Tyrion at all I really like him. But I do find myself pointing out his huge gaping flaws a lot. He's a character that many read without seeing his faults because of how he is presented to us. 

 

Same here! Tyrion is one of my favorites but I'm not blind to his flaws like his other fans.

I just find it bizarre that this fandom sympathizes more with an adult who pities himself because his captive child bride doesn't want him vs a prisoner child who lost her last family members and is forcefully married into her enemies. I do think george should have written at least one sansa pov during their marriage instead of showing her through tyrion's biased pov that made her look like a bad person. I guess george thought the fans would be smart enough to understand what sansa was going through without getting into her head and why she didn't open to tyrion. I mean how much you lack empathy to not see that the poor girl was in mourning, totally isolated, forced to sleep with her enemy every night, at her lowest point in life etc. It was only the escape plan with dontos that kept her going, otherwise, she would have committed suicide.  

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5 hours ago, Moonmoon said:

Same here! Tyrion is one of my favorites but I'm not blind to his flaws like his other fans.

 

He's a rapist,sexist, a murderer, easily allows his ego to guide his actions, often to the detriment to those around him(see his brazen provocation of Joffery in public or his needlessprovocations against Cersi such taking Tommen when she attempted to smuggle him out just to spite her ), and to himself(really just about anyone would place him as the prime suspect should Joffery die), and is willing to sacrifice thousands and the few kin who've adored him(Mycerlla & Tommen), for against Cersi. Even, his murder of Shae I find not to be an instance anyone should pity him for, given his very possessive nature of her, the fact she never much hid she was interested in his money, and the fact they're entire relationship started with Bran basically kidnapping her to give Tyrion some pleasure before the battle at the greenfork. 

Honestly, he's far more similar to Cersi than he'd care to admit. 

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7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's a rapist,sexist, a murderer, easily allows his ego to guide his actions, often to the detriment to those around him(see his brazen provocation of Joffery in public or his needlessprovocations against Cersi such taking Tommen when she attempted to smuggle him out just to spite her ), and to himself(really just about anyone would place him as the prime suspect should Joffery die), and is willing to sacrifice thousands and the few kin who've adored him(Mycerlla & Tommen), for against Cersi. Even, his murder of Shae I find not to be an instance anyone should pity him for, given his very possessive nature of her, the fact she never much hid she was interested in his money, and the fact they're entire relationship started with Bran basically kidnapping her to give Tyrion some pleasure before the battle at the greenfork. 

Honestly, he's far more similar to Cersi than he'd care to admit. 

I agree with everything you said. There's also the mess he made with the mountain clans and then he wondered why smallfolks hate him. 

I like tyrion as a character but as a person? Hell no! Book tyrion is very flawed and a dark character. I guess its because of his whitewashed tv show counterpart and his self pitying pov chapters that prevent many fans from seeing what he truly is. He always brings out the "dwarf card" so readers feel sorry for him. George said that he can relate to him so maybe that's why he's written in such a sympathetic manner? 

I think he's more similar to tywin..

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On 5/20/2018 at 12:45 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 And why do people call Sansa shallow and bigoted but give Tyrion a free pass, Tyrion who only wants to sleep with sexy and normal sized women, who rejects Penny because she is a dwarf? Who considers Lollys beneath him. 

Touché.

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Penny did not appeal to Tyrion emotionally or physically. and he wasn’t being compelled by his family. He did try to soothe and protect her, especially when healed somewhat after his near execution.

Tyrion did try to refuse and was coerced into marriage. I doubt anyone with much understanding of medieval culture would say he had much choice, especially after the Tasha debacle. Even Henry the Eighth felt pushed into a marriage with Anne of Cleves and there was extreme pressure to marry according to your parents or ministers wishes.

Tywin was pushing Tyrion to consummate the marriage with Sansa and Tyrion refused when the lady was not willing. He was aware that the marriage could be annulled, meanwhile she would be relatively safe from Joffrey or other worse marriages. Did he not take the rap for Joff murder and try to hide evidence that he may have believed implicated Sansa? I would say that he took a big risk not attempting to blame her. How many would do that for a girl that had spurned and humiliated them?

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On May 21, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Moonmoon said:

I agree with everything you said. There's also the mess he made with the mountain clans and then he wondered why smallfolks hate h

I don't believe the agreement he made between the crown and the hill tribes is known-though if I remember correctl he'd wondered specificly why the small folk of Kingslanding hates him. Which Varys gave the answer of it him mostly being the new guy, who just came to power when everything went to shit. Not to say he doesn't say an apathy to the suffering his plans have entailed/or will entail upon the small folk. But it is so inconsequential to him. They are ants to which he'd steps on the sidewalk on his way to work. This is to be expected given what he is; He's a nobleman after all. He's a nobleman who happens to suffer dwarfism sure, not a dwarv who happens to be a noble meaning he's picked up many the prejudices and beliefs a person of his rank would have. Whether it's Daenarys or Robb, or Tywin, nearly no noble really has shown any real care for the peasants who must suffer for their climb to power/or seeking of vegence. Only really Doran and Edmure I'd say real genuine concern for their small folk I'd say.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/21/2018 at 12:15 PM, Moonmoon said:

Same here! Tyrion is one of my favorites but I'm not blind to his flaws like his other fans.

I just find it bizarre that this fandom sympathizes more with an adult who pities himself because his captive child bride doesn't want him vs a prisoner child who lost her last family members and is forcefully married into her enemies. I do think george should have written at least one sansa pov during their marriage instead of showing her through tyrion's biased pov that made her look like a bad person. I guess george thought the fans would be smart enough to understand what sansa was going through without getting into her head and why she didn't open to tyrion. I mean how much you lack empathy to not see that the poor girl was in mourning, totally isolated, forced to sleep with her enemy every night, at her lowest point in life etc. It was only the escape plan with dontos that kept her going, otherwise, she would have committed suicide.  

I think it was deliberate. GRRM uses reader manipulation really well. He presents Tyrion in his introductory chapters as this witty, funny, essentially good character. The way he neglects to show us Sansa's POV throughout their marriage means that the casual reader is then slapped in the face by Tyrion's sudden revelation as not such a great guy after all once he starts murdering and raping people.

We've never been given a negative POV on Tyrion; Cersei's does not count as she is a "villain" so her POV will always cast our "hero's" in a bad light and as such will be read as biased.Because of this we as readers are set up to gloss over his flaws and then have a holey shit moment when he suddenly stops being the good guy we thought he was. Of course when that happens the reader then starts re evaluating him, we go back over his chapters and suddenly see him in a new light; he was always a bit of a dick all be it one who thinks highly of himself.  And who is unaware of these flaws in his nature. 

I think what is very telling about society as a whole though is how so many readers don't do this and are shocked and outraged when you point out that he is a rapist. Or that Shae didn't owe him her loyalty, that their relationship was not what he presented it to us as via his own POV. That Sansa didn't owe him sex, fidelity, or love just because he was less cruel to her than his relations. 

It's very telling that this adult male character isn't just easily forgiven for his negative behaviour but that people don't even register that he has done anything wrong. 

 

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