Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 5/22/2018 at 10:46 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Penny did not appeal to Tyrion emotionally or physically. and he wasn’t being compelled by his family. He did try to soothe and protect her, especially when healed somewhat after his near execution.

Exactly, and he's not obligated to have sex with her just because she found him appealing. So why do people think Sansa was in the wrong for rejecting Tyrion because he did not appeal to her? They call her shallow because she isn't attracted to him. But Tyrion is not called shallow because he doesn't find Penny sexually attractive, or Lollys.  Tyrion has a difficult relationship with Penny, her role is there to both show us as readers that Tyrion isn't as awesome as he is presented initially but also as someone to help him change his attitude towards women. He's by no means at a point where he has overcome those negative traits either. 

Spoiler

He almost tries to strangle her in one of his TWOW sample chapters for instance. 

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Tyrion did try to refuse and was coerced into marriage. I doubt anyone with much understanding of medieval culture would say he had much choice, especially after the Tysha debacle. Even Henry the Eighth felt pushed into a marriage with Anne of Cleves and there was extreme pressure to marry according to your parents or ministers wishes.

Sorry the text box won't allow me to click under this quote box to carry on so I'll try to differentiate between my quote of you and my answering words. 

Tyrion did have initial discomfort with marrying Sansa, but we are in his head so we get to see his thoughts as they develop. He considers his fathers offer to marry her to Lancel instead, he thinks about how she might prefer a boy closer to her own age, a boy who is more physically attractive than he is. But his lust for her claim to WF, and her physically wins out. He goes to the Sept willing and ready to marry her.  You can't try to pretend Tyrion was as much a victim of Tywins machinations as she was. It simply isn't true. 

On 5/22/2018 at 10:46 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Tywin was pushing Tyrion to consummate the marriage with Sansa and Tyrion refused when the lady was not willing. He was aware that the marriage could be annulled, meanwhile she would be relatively safe from Joffrey or other worse marriages. Did he not take the rap for Joff murder and try to hide evidence that he may have believed implicated Sansa? I would say that he took a big risk not attempting to blame her. How many would do that for a girl that had spurned and humiliated them?

 

You're twisting Tyrion's refusal to rape her to make it seem as though he was doing a noble act, protecting her from being wed instead to another who would do so. He was not. His reasons for not raping her are entirely selfish he wants to fuck her really bad but he wants her to want him. He does not like to bed women who are repulsed by him. He tells us that quite frequently. Whether he's talking about the whores he has sex with or his wife. The fact he later goes on to do just that; rape a woman who he can see does not want him, is disgusted by him. Shows the level of self loathing darkness he has fallen to in ADWD. This is the pit he has to climb out of in order to move on as a character. But whilst he is with Sansa he's not at that low. He knows he hurts himself when he has sex with women who are visibly repulsed by him. So he does not do it to her, or himself.  

ASOS Tyrion IV:

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And their nights together in the great bed were another source of torment. He could no longer bear to sleep naked, as had been his custom. His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear. Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well. I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust

 

There is another quote too prior to this one where he is angry because everyone in the castle knows he has not bedded his wife. The stable boys snigger at him and he blames her for telling her maid, or maybe it was Varys with his little birds. He's not being chivalrous as much as he's had women who looked disgusted as he fucked them before and has no desire to see that on his wife's face.  Because it hurts him, wounds him to be reminded that no woman wants him. It is this deep distress that causes him to seek the girlfriend experience in Shae, that makes him create that fatal disconnect with her as whore, stop paying her, and fool himself that she loves him. He's desperate for the real love he had with Tysha and to rape Sansa would mean he'd have to see the fear and revulsion she'd have for him whilst he did it. And yes afterwards too. He wants her to love him, he wants her laughter and her confidence, her lust and her trust. You don't get that through rape.  

The other aspect of course is that this is plot armour for Sansa's virginity. Her story is largely about her gaining her own sexual autonomy. She has to give her virginity freely to a man of her own choosing. I'd be very surprised if she's taken against her will. Her marriage to Tyrion is her shield until such a time when she is in a position to chose for herself. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 5/21/2018 at 12:30 AM, Lollygag said:

ACOK Sansa II

 

She flew along the river walk, past the small kitchen, and through the pig yard, her hurried footsteps lost beneath the squealing of the hogs in their pens. Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he'll keep me safe, my Florian. The songs about Florian and Jonquil were her very favorites. Florian was homely too, though not so old.

 Agree. If her very favorite songs were about the homely Florian the Fool and the maiden Jonquil, then she wasn't ever that shallow to begin with.

(On the side, never noticed the part before about the kitchen and the pigs. The way it's described, Sansa is among the pigs and being by the kitchen, they are to be butchered/sacrificed. Had mixed feelings as to Dontos' motives, but now my view of them is darker than before.)

Good catch, thank you for this. 

[Springwatch]

Jumping back a few pages:

On 5/7/2018 at 8:02 PM, Springwatch said:

The snow castle Sansa makes with Petyr has been analysed for meaning many times. I suspect it doesn't foreshadow the rebuilding of Winterfell, for practical reasons. I think it can represent the building of Sansa's mind into a fortress, which fits nicely with a number of quotes ("You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall."; 'come-into-my-castle' which is a game for highborn children 'to teach them courtesy, heraldry, and a thing or two about their lord father's friends and foes'; and of course, "Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle."

Maybe surprisingly, but the main support for the idea of a mental fortress comes from Jaime. He goes 'away inside' to cope with the mental trauma of witnessing Aerys' atrocities. Later, he tries to teach the same technique to Tommen. And in captivity with Brienne, he fills out the complete metaphor:

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The wench has built a fortress inside herself. They will rape her soon enough, but behind her walls they cannot touch her. But Jaime's walls were gone.  (ASOS)

ETA

I'm not expecting any physical rapes for Sansa so much as the mental kind, the hostile skinchanger kind. The mental control probably comes in through the eyes:

If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes... (Dany on Daario, ASOS)

[Mladen]

On 5/22/2018 at 11:46 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Tyrion did try to refuse and was coerced into marriage. I doubt anyone with much understanding of medieval culture would say he had much choice, especially after the Tasha debacle. Even Henry the Eighth felt pushed into a marriage with Anne of Cleves and there was extreme pressure to marry according to your parents or ministers wishes.

First, Tyrion was goaded into marriage. Not forced. I know TV show screwed this up, but let we not confuse the two. Tyrion was entertained by the idea of Winterfell and Sansa was far above him on the marriage scale, as we know everyone practically rejected Tywin's offers.

Now, feeling pushed and being coerced are two different things. Tyrion could have said NO and Tywin would move on. He would be angry, yes, but Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he already had suffered. On the other hand, Sansa was threatened to be beaten into submission. Now, that is coercion. Sansa was forced into that marriage, Tyrion was goaded into accepting the offer.

 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

First, Tyrion was goaded into marriage. Not forced. I know TV show screwed this up, but let we not confuse the two. Tyrion was entertained by the idea of Winterfell and Sansa was far above him on the marriage scale, as we know everyone practically rejected Tywin's offers.

Now, feeling pushed and being coerced are two different things. Tyrion could have said NO and Tywin would move on. He would be angry, yes, but Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he already had suffered. On the other hand, Sansa was threatened to be beaten into submission. Now, that is coercion. Sansa was forced into that marriage, Tyrion was goaded into accepting the offer.

 

There is a recurring usage in the books of characters both knowing and not knowing, believing yet not believing. Mirri accuses Dany of this with Rhaego. Tyrion feels something wrong at the Wall yet isn't able to believe Mormont, Sansa sees who Joff really is but yet isn't able to truly see with all of its implications until it's too late, Jaime knows Cersei's nature, yet it takes him time for this awareness to blossom to where he feels he needs to act and on and on it goes.

Tyrion is aware that Tywin has tried to arrange his death in the past. Tywin openly threatens Tyrion's exile when he tries to go to Essos (was Gerion really exiled? Tywin says neither of his brothers wed a whore when Tywin actually has 3 brothers), Regardless, Tyrion believes Tywin's threat of disinheritance and exile. Tyrion suspects his chore of cleaning the drains was an attempt to kill him, and he knows that Tywin placed him in a situation in the first battle against the Starks with the intent that Tyrion be killed. I think Tyrion both believes that Tywin will in fact kill him, but also disbelieves on a certain level because this would be admitting things he is not willing to truly face. But Tyrion does have a very real reason to fear Tywin.

ADWD Tyrion III

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled. "If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have," his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I'd fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

 

ASOS Tyrion I

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

 

 

While Tyrion knows that Tywin is to truly be feared, at least by him, I agree that Tyrion is also intrigued by the offer of Winterfell and Sansa especially as it comes right after Tywin rejecting him for Casterly Rock.

 

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

There is a recurring usage in the books of characters both knowing and not knowing, believing yet not believing. Mirri accuses Dany of this with Rhaego. Tyrion feels something wrong at the Wall yet isn't able to believe Mormont, Sansa sees who Joff really is but yet isn't able to truly see with all of its implications until it's too late, Jaime knows Cersei's nature, yet it takes him time for this awareness to blossom to where he feels he needs to act and on and on it goes.

While this is all true, I don't see how it pertains to our discussion. Tyrion knows what Tywin is capable of and he knows that his life is not in immediate danger from Tywin. 

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Tyrion is aware that Tywin has tried to arrange his death in the past. Tywin openly threatens Tyrion's exile when he tries to go to Essos (was Gerion really exiled? Tywin says neither of his brothers wed a whore when Tywin actually has 3 brothers), Regardless, Tyrion believes Tywin's threat of disinheritance and exile. Tyrion suspects his chore of cleaning the drains was an attempt to kill him, and he knows that Tywin placed him in a situation in the first battle against the Starks with the intent that Tyrion be killed. I think Tyrion both believes that Tywin will in fact kill him, but also disbelieves on a certain level because this would be admitting things he is not willing to truly face. But Tyrion does have a very real reason to fear Tywin.

I don't think so and the quotes doesn't actually corroborate it, The first one comes from bitter and drunk Tyrion who is more inclined to vilify his father and reason his own crime. Tywin's threat of disinheritance is very much real. Tyron knows he can't hope for Casterly Rock as long as Tywin holds any power. Tywin threatening Tyrion's life, not so much. After all, eve though he hates him, he could have killed him on his childbirth. He didn't.

Tywin didn't put Tyrion alone in vanguard at the Battle of Green Folk. He sent the wildlings in the vanguard in rather clear attempt to save his own army and Tyrion is more than aware of that. 

Tyrion is never actively afraid for his life. Yes, he cynically entertains the idea every now and then, but it is not something that is formulated thought in his brain. 

Simply, Tyrion's life was never in danger nor Tyrion thought it would be if he refuse. Again, he was goaded, not forced. 

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

While Tyrion knows that Tywin is to truly be feared, at least by him, Tyrion is also intrigued by the offer of Winterfell and Sansa especially as it comes right after Tywin rejecting him for Casterly Rock.

I would disagree that Tyrion was afraid of Tywin, but I do believe that the prospect of Winterfell was too much to be so easily dismissed.

[Lollygag]

27 minutes ago, Risto said:

While this is all true, I don't see how it pertains to our discussion. Tyrion knows what Tywin is capable of and he knows that his life is not in immediate danger from Tywin. 

No, I agree that Tyrion wouldn't be in immediate danger from Tywin.

Before I respond further, I want to make sure I'm understanding you here. Above you said Tyrion knows he's not in immediate danger which implies that Tyrion knows he might be in danger of a less-immediate nature. It looks like a contradiction to this:

3 hours ago, Risto said:

Now, feeling pushed and being coerced are two different things. Tyrion could have said NO and Tywin would move on. He would be angry, yes, but Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he already had suffered. On the other hand, Sansa was threatened to be beaten into submission. Now, that is coercion. Sansa was forced into that marriage, Tyrion was goaded into accepting the offer.

Just want to make sure we don't have crossed wires.

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Before I respond further, I want to make sure I'm understanding you here. Above you said Tyrion knows he's not in immediate danger which implies that Tyrion knows he might be in danger of a less-immediate nature. It looks like a contradiction to this:

Aha, I see. My point is that potential refusal would not warrant murder (or as for that matter, any grave reaction) as response. Tyrion may have felt threatened by Tywin, but not in this situation. He could have said "No, I don't want to marry Sansa" and Tywin would marry Sansa off to someone else and he would continue to despise and humiliate Tyrion as he was doing so far. 

[Lollygag]

44 minutes ago, Risto said:

Aha, I see. My point is that potential refusal would not warrant murder (or as for that matter, any grave reaction) as response. Tyrion may have felt threatened by Tywin, but not in this situation. He could have said "No, I don't want to marry Sansa" and Tywin would marry Sansa off to someone else and he would continue to despise and humiliate Tyrion as he was doing so far. 

No, logically it doesn't warrant murder at all, or even lesser punishments.

But Tywin is different and apparently doesn't need a reason to take Tyrion out. Here, Tyrion clearly believes that Tywin has tried to kill him before. He accused Tywin twice in this passage and neither time did Tywin deny it. Tyrion did nothing that we know of at this point to warrant an attempted murder except being born, living a life of which Tywin doesn't approve at all, and getting captured by Catelyn which wasn't his fault. If Tyrion turns defiant of something very important to Tywin, then it just gives Tywin more reason to attempt to remove Tyrion from the equation somehow.

Underscoring my point, Tyrion believes that Tywin seeks to arrange his death just in general and not over any specific reason. Thus the threat is constant. Add defying Tywin on top of that...

AGOT Tyrion VIII

His father's eyes were on him, pale green flecked with gold, so cool they gave Tyrion a chill. "Did that surprise you, Father?" he asked. "Did it upset your plans? We were supposed to be butchered, were we not?"

Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. "I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan's pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve."

"And you thought it best to place me in the midst of this carnage, yet keep me ignorant of your plans."

"A feigned rout is less convincing," his father said, "and I am not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages."

"A pity my savages ruined your dance." Tyrion pulled off his steel gauntlet and let it fall to the ground, wincing at the pain that stabbed up his arm.

"The Stark boy proved more cautious than I expected for one of his years," Lord Tywin admitted, "but a victory is a victory. You appear to be wounded."

The biggest thing about Tywin's character is that he is not to be defied without major repercussions. It's all throughout the books. This is why he was so brutal on the Reynes after Tytos' leniency nearly ruined them. That's why the Rains of Castamere is used as a reminder of this. Tyrion learned this with Tysha. People are terrified of him and walk on eggshells around him. Putting forth that Tyrion could have blithely turned Tywin down goes against all of this about Tywin's character and also Tywin's and Tyrion's relationship.

Jaime was Tywin's favorite and he never gave up on Jaime becoming his heir. When Jaime refused Tywin in almost the exact same scenario as this situation with Tyrion, he was disowned. What would Tywin have done to Tyrion whom he hated and already tried to kill?

ASOS Jaime VII

"She can die a maiden as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son—"

"I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that's all I mean to be!"

Firelight gleamed golden in the stiff whiskers that framed Lord Tywin's face. A vein pulsed in his neck, but he did not speak. And did not speak. And did not speak.

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. "Father . . ." he began.

"You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty."

 

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

No, logically it doesn't warrant murder at all, or even lesser punishments.

But Tywin is different and apparently doesn't need a reason to take Tyrion out. Here, Tyrion clearly believes that Tywin has tried to kill him before. He accused Tywin twice in this passage and neither time did Tywin deny it. Tyrion did nothing that we know of at this point to warrant an attempted murder except being born, living a life of which Tywin doesn't approve at all, and getting captured by Catelyn which wasn't his fault. If Tyrion turns defiant of something very important to Tywin, then it just gives Tywin more reason to attempt to remove Tyrion from the equation somehow.

Underscoring my point, Tyrion believes that Tywin seeks to arrange his death just in general and not over any specific reason. Thus the threat is constant. Add defying Tywin on top of that...

Tyrion is threatened by Tywin, yes, but afraid for his life? That would be a mild stretch.

Tyrion is very cynical when he thinks of how his father could have ended his life. It is not something he ponders about very actively, it is more some bitter thoughts when situation proves that Tywin didn't have Tyrion's best interests. 

Let we not forget that Tywin actively thinks that he can disinherit Tyrion. Even GRRM says that is not something Tywin could have controlled, but Tywin believed it nonetheless. I doubt that killing Tyrion was ever an option, just putting him aside. It speaks that even though Tywin despises him, he thinks Tyrion will outlive him. 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

Tyrion is threatened by Tywin, yes, but afraid for his life? That would be a mild stretch.

Tyrion is very cynical when he thinks of how his father could have ended his life. It is not something he ponders about very actively, it is more some bitter thoughts when situation proves that Tywin didn't have Tyrion's best interests. 

Let we not forget that Tywin actively thinks that he can disinherit Tyrion. Even GRRM says that is not something Tywin could have controlled, but Tywin believed it nonetheless. I doubt that killing Tyrion was ever an option, just putting him aside. It speaks that even though Tywin despises him, he thinks Tyrion will outlive him. 

Tyrion accuses Tywin of trying kill him twice and neither time does Tywin deny it. At all.

10 hours ago, Risto said:

Now, feeling pushed and being coerced are two different things. Tyrion could have said NO and Tywin would move on. He would be angry, yes, but Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he already had suffered. On the other hand, Sansa was threatened to be beaten into submission. Now, that is coercion. Sansa was forced into that marriage, Tyrion was goaded into accepting the offer.

So how is disinheritance consistent with "Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he already suffered"? I have to think that this qualifies as  But Tyrion does have a very real reason to fear Tywin which was my original point.

 

[Mladen]

37 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

So how is disinheritance consistent with "Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he already suffered"? I have to think that this qualifies as  But Tyrion does have a very real reason to fear Tywin which was my original point.

Because, Tywin, in his mind, already disinherited him. Tywin never planned Tyrion to inherit him and he knew it. Hence, Tyrion asking for CR.

[Lollygag]

58 minutes ago, Risto said:

Because, Tywin, in his mind, already disinherited him. Tywin never planned Tyrion to inherit him and he knew it. Hence, Tyrion asking for CR.

Tyrion still gets an inheritance even if it's not Casterly Rock. He gets to live the lifestyle of a Lannister and this can be taken away. Tywin has threatened to do so before as seen below and I doubt this is the first and only time Tyrion heard this threat as I strongly suspect this is what happened to Gerion for reasons I state above and that Tywin disinherits Jaime in this same way.

Tywin didn't truly disinherit Tyrion as Tywin always intended Jaime to inherit ~somehow~ making Tyrion's status a mute point. It's glaringly clear that Tywin and Jaime have had the discussion of Jaime taking Casterly Rock a number of times before and at last Jaime put a final end to it. Tywin then disinherits Jaime - and it wasn't Casterly Rock as Jaime already declined this. Tywin's disinheritance was as Tywin's son and as a Lannister, just as Tywin threatened below. That it was always somehow understood that Jaime was to inherit is clear because Tyrion puts it in Tywin's face that Jaime can't inherit and Tywin refuses to address this.

ADWD Tyrion III

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled. "If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have," his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I'd fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

 

 

 

Just to be clear - are you still maintaining that Tyrion could have and actually believed that he could have said no to Tywin with no fear of consequence beyond Tywin being grumpier than usual?

 

 

[Mladen]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Tyrion still gets an inheritance even if it's not Casterly Rock. He gets to live the lifestyle of a Lannister and this can be taken away. Tywin has threatened to do so before as seen below and I doubt this is the first and only time Tyrion heard this threat as I strongly suspect this is what happened to Gerion for reasons I state above and that Tywin disinherits Jaime in this same way.

This entire argument was about whether Tyrion was forced into marriage. Disinheritance as punishment for disobedience is not forcing someone to do something, 

Tyrion had a choice, Sansa was the one without it. They were not in the same situation.

[Lollygag]

43 minutes ago, Risto said:

This entire argument was about whether Tyrion was forced into marriage. Disinheritance as punishment for disobedience is not forcing someone to do something, 

Tyrion had a choice, Sansa was the one without it. They were not in the same situation.

Please tell me where I said:

1. That Tyrion was forced into the marriage. I said Tyrion couldn't say no without consequences. You said "Tyrion could have said NO and Tywin would move on. He would be angry, yes, but Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he had already suffered." That Tyrion would suffer no harm or consequences for his choice, and yes, it was a choice, is what I take issue with and it's what I was demonstrating with my quotes.

2. And where did I say Tyrion and Sansa were in the same situation? They're not in the slightest.

 

And don't think I didn't notice that you've avoided this yet again.

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Just to be clear - are you still maintaining that Tyrion could have and actually believed that he could have said no to Tywin with no fear of consequence beyond Tywin being grumpier than usual? 

 

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Please tell me where I said:

1. That Tyrion was forced into the marriage. I said Tyrion couldn't say no without consequences. You said "Tyrion could have said NO and Tywin would move on. He would be angry, yes, but Tyrion would suffer no harm. No more than he had already suffered." That Tyrion would suffer no harm or consequences for his choice, and yes, it was a choice, is what I take issue with and it's what I was demonstrating with my quotes.

2. And where did I say Tyrion and Sansa were in the same situation? They're not in the slightest.

1. In the first post I have quoted you have said that "Tyrion was coerced into the marriage". English is not my first language but I do believe that the act of coercing involve force, intimidation or threat. Which is not what happened in this situation.

2. In your first reply to me, you started the argument that Tyrion "maybe knew or didn't know" what Tywin would do to him if he refuses. Which is why I believed that your opinion is that Tyrion was forced into marriage and that Tywin actually threatened his life if he doesn't comply. Which is what happened to Sansa.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And don't think I didn't notice that you've avoided this yet again.

And yet again, you would be wrong. I didn't ignore it

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Just to be clear - are you still maintaining that Tyrion could have and actually believed that he could have said no to Tywin with no fear of consequence beyond Tywin being grumpier than usual?

I believe that Tyrion felt that this is it. He knew his father will never give him Casterly Rock, he understood that there is no love or respect. Winterfell was offered and that was the only thing he could have gotten at that moment. I don't think he gave much thought about what Tywin would do to him as much as what would he be left with if he refuses. He understood that Tywin wants to see him married and that defying him would mean something, but I doubt Tyrion was actively afraid for his life (well, he was, but not from Tywin). I do believe that whatever the consequence his refusal would bring, it wasn't something Tyrion was truly afraid of. 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

1. In the first post I have quoted you have said that "Tyrion was coerced into the marriage". English is not my first language but I do believe that the act of coercing involve force, intimidation or threat. Which is not what happened in this situation.

2. In your first reply to me, you started the argument that Tyrion "maybe knew or didn't know" what Tywin would do to him if he refuses. Which is why I believed that your opinion is that Tyrion was forced into marriage and that Tywin actually threatened his life if he doesn't comply. Which is what happened to Sansa.

And yet again, you would be wrong. I didn't ignore it

I believe that Tyrion felt that this is it. He knew his father will never give him Casterly Rock, he understood that there is no love or respect. Winterfell was offered and that was the only thing he could have gotten at that moment. I don't think he gave much thought about what Tywin would do to him as much as what would he be left with if he refuses. He understood that Tywin wants to see him married and that defying him would mean something, but I doubt Tyrion was actively afraid for his life (well, he was, but not from Tywin). I do believe that whatever the consequence his refusal would bring, it wasn't something Tyrion was truly afraid of. 

I don't see "Tyrion was coerced into the marriage" or "maybe knew or didn't know" on this page at all from anyone except in your post. Unless you can provide forum generated quotes to this effect, I'll assume you can't respond without attributing words to me that I didn't actually say and I'm not going to respond to what I never said.

 

You only addressed it directly after I called you on it and ignored the question. I've requoted your original line about harm it feels like 20x already trying to get you to readdress this as you're coming across as all over the place and to get back to the original point. Now you address it directly only after I've called you on it and claim I'm wrong?

 

You can believe/doubt/think whatever you want. I provided quotes. Will you? And more quotes to come

 

Adding: I just did a search of the entire forum for the word "coerced". There are 4 pages of results and this post is the only time I've used this word in my entire post history. Faking quotes and attributing them to me is extremely inappropriate and dishonest. And nevermind with a response. I won't be reading it. Goodbye.

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't see "Tyrion was coerced into the marriage" or "maybe knew or didn't know" on this page at all from anyone except in your post. Unless you can provide forum generated quotes to this effect, I'll assume you can't respond without attributing words to me that I didn't actually say and I'm not going to respond to what I never said.

As I have said, my original response to this thread was to the idea that Tyrion was coerced into marriage... I don't know how your Search function works, but this is what I have responded to...

On 5/22/2018 at 11:46 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Tyrion did try to refuse and was coerced into marriage. I doubt anyone with much understanding of medieval culture would say he had much choice, especially after the Tasha debacle. Even Henry the Eighth felt pushed into a marriage with Anne of Cleves and there was extreme pressure to marry according to your parents or ministers wishes.

Yes, I see now that I have wrongly attributed this post to you as you were the one to respond to my post. I apologize for it. It wasn't intentional.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

You can believe/doubt/think whatever you want. I provided quotes. Will you? And more quotes to come

Your quotes never quite made your point. Your point that "Tyrion knew and didn't know" that Tywin would kill him doesn't reflect in the quotes you have provided. Tyrion is extremely cynical during his conversation with Tywin after Battle at Green Folk. It is like when people blamed Catelyn when Jon said she counted his every bite. Martin is exceptional when it comes to characters having their own "truth". The lack of any quotes that would address Tyrion's continuous fear for his life indeed makes me believe that although he didn't feel love or respect from his father, he didn't believe that his father is trying to kill him.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

You only addressed it directly after I called you on it and ignored the question.

Well, your question was "are you still maintaining that Tyrion could have and actually believed that he could have said no to Tywin with no fear of consequence beyond Tywin being grumpier than usual?" and my answer was basically "yes". I also provided my thoughts on the subject as to why I believe so.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Adding: I just did a search of the entire forum for the word "coerced". There are 4 pages of results and this post is the only time I've used this word in my entire post history. Faking quotes and attributing them to me is extremely inappropriate and dishonest. And nevermind with a response. I won't be reading it. Goodbye.

As I have said, it was never my intention to attribute it to you and it was just a mistake. Of course I understand how it looks to you. I apologize for it. I did bother with response and I hope you will read it. But I think we have crossed the line of polite discussion which is why it is better to leave it there. Good day to you, sir/madam.  

 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Tywin didn't coerce Tyrion into marrying Sansa because he didn't need to. Tywin is like lawyers in the courtroom who never ask questions they don't already know the answers to.

As Littlefinger said, when you know what a man wants, you know who he is and how to move him. 

[Lollygag]

More quotes as promised showing that Tyrion couldn't say no to Tywin without facing consequences. I showed above where Jaime, Tywin's favorite, was disowned for denying Tywin's wish for him to marry and take Casterly Rock. Below, I show where Cersei is commanded to marry and Tywin's reaction when she says no. While Cersei is certainly not respected by Tywin, he tolerates her and sees her as useful. Sansa and Winterfell are "offered" to Tyrion, whom Tywin despises and as I showed above has already tried to kill him, immediately after we see Tywin's reaction to Cersei's rebellion. This isn't a coincidence. It's also no coincidence that we are reminded of the Reynes of Castamere and threats right before Tywin issues what sounds like an order for Tyrion to marry Sansa. Note how Tyrion thinks on how Tywin uses the very mention of the Castamere as a threat, and a bad one. Again, Tyrion can say no, but it'll cost and he'd best be careful in doing so.

Apologies for the length. Context is important.

 

Quote

ASOS Tyrion III

 

….

"I should like private words with my children," said Lord Tywin as the others rose to leave. "You as well, Kevan."

Obediently, the other councillors made their farewells, Varys the first to depart and Tyrell and Redwyne the last. When the chamber was empty but for the four Lannisters, Ser Kevan closed the door.

"Master of coin?" said Tyrion in a thin strained voice. "Whose notion was that, pray?"

"Lord Petyr's," his father said, "but it serves us well to have the treasury in the hands of a Lannister. You have asked for important work. Do you fear you might be incapable of the task?"

"No," said Tyrion, "I fear a trap. Littlefinger is subtle and ambitious. I do not trust him. Nor should you."

"He won Highgarden to our side . . ." Cersei began.

". . . and sold you Ned Stark, I know. He will sell us just as quick. A coin is as dangerous as a sword in the wrong hands."

His uncle Kevan looked at him oddly. "Not to us, surely. The gold of Casterly Rock . . ."

". . . is dug from the ground. Littlefinger's gold is made from thin air, with a snap of his fingers."

"A more useful skill than any of yours, sweet brother," purred Cersei, in a voice sweet with malice.

"Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow."

Lord Tywin slammed his hand down on the table. "Enough! I will have no more of this unseemly squabbling. You are both Lannisters, and will comport yourselves as such."

Ser Kevan cleared his throat. "I would sooner have Petyr Baelish ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa's other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort . . . these are dangerous men, each in his own way. And proud. Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege." He looked to his brother. When Lord Tywin nodded, he continued. "And there is this—Lord Petyr continues to demonstrate his loyalty. Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a 'visit,' and there marry her to Lord Mace's eldest son, Willas."

"Littlefinger brought you word?" Tyrion leaned against the table. "Not our master of whisperers? How interesting."

Cersei looked at their uncle in disbelief. "Sansa is my hostage. She goes nowhere without my leave."

"Leave you must perforce grant, should Lord Tyrell ask," their father pointed out. "To refuse him would be tantamount to declaring that we did not trust him. He would take offense."

"Let him. What do we care?"

Bloody fool, thought Tyrion. "Sweet sister," he explained patiently, "offend Tyrell and you offend Redwyne, Tarly, Rowan, and Hightower as well, and perhaps start them wondering whether Robb Stark might not be more accommodating of their desires."

"I will not have the rose and the direwolf in bed together," declared Lord Tywin. "We must forestall him."

"How?" asked Cersei.

"By marriage. Yours, to begin with."

It came so suddenly that Cersei could only stare for a moment. Then her cheeks reddened as if she had been slapped. "No. Not again. I will not."

"Your Grace," said Ser Kevan, courteously, "you are a young woman, still fair and fertile. Surely you cannot wish to spend the rest of your days alone? And a new marriage would put to rest this talk of incest for good and all."

"So long as you remain unwed, you allow Stannis to spread his disgusting slander," Lord Tywin told his daughter. "You must have a new husband in your bed, to father children on you."

"Three children is quite sufficient. I am Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not a brood mare! The Queen Regent!"

"You are my daughter, and will do as I command."

She stood. "I will not sit here and listen to this—"

"You will if you wish to have any voice in the choice of your next husband," Lord Tywin said calmly.

When she hesitated, then sat, Tyrion knew she was lost, despite her loud declaration of, "I will not marry again!"

"You will marry and you will breed. Every child you birth makes Stannis more a liar." Their father's eyes seemed to pin her to her chair. "Mace Tyrell, Paxter Redwyne, and Doran Martell are wed to younger women likely to outlive them. Balon Greyjoy's wife is elderly and failing, but such a match would commit us to an alliance with the Iron Islands, and I am still uncertain whether that would be our wisest course."

"No," Cersei said from between white lips. "No, no, no."

Tyrion could not quite suppress the grin that came to his lips at the thought of packing his sister off to Pyke. Just when I was about to give up praying, some sweet god gives me this.

Lord Tywin went on. "Oberyn Martell might suit, but the Tyrells would take that very ill. So we must look to the sons. I assume you do not object to wedding a man younger than yourself?"

"I object to wedding any—"

"I have considered the Redwyne twins, Theon Greyjoy, Quentyn Martell, and a number of others. But our alliance with Highgarden was the sword that broke Stannis. It should be tempered and made stronger. Ser Loras has taken the white and Ser Garlan is wed to one of the Fossoways, but there remains the eldest son, the boy they scheme to wed to Sansa Stark."

Willas Tyrell. Tyrion was taking a wicked pleasure in Cersei's helpless fury. "That would be the cripple," he said.

Their father chilled him with a look. "Willas is heir to Highgarden, and by all reports a mild and courtly young man, fond of reading books and looking at the stars. He has a passion for breeding animals as well, and owns the finest hounds, hawks, and horses in the Seven Kingdoms."

A perfect match, mused Tyrion. Cersei also has a passion for breeding. He pitied poor Willas Tyrell, and did not know whether he wanted to laugh at his sister or weep for her.

"The Tyrell heir would be my choice," Lord Tywin concluded, "but if you would prefer another, I will hear your reasons."

"That is so very kind of you, Father," Cersei said with icy courtesy. "It is such a difficult choice you give me. Who would I sooner take to bed, the old squid or the crippled dog boy? I shall need a few days to consider. Do I have your leave to go?"

You are the queen, Tyrion wanted to tell her. He ought to be begging leave of you.

"Go," their father said. "We shall talk again after you have composed yourself. Remember your duty."

Cersei swept stiffly from the room, her rage plain to see. Yet in the end she will do as Father bid. She had proved that with Robert. Though there is Jaime to consider. Their brother had been much younger when Cersei wed the first time; he might not acquiesce to a second marriage quite so easily. The unfortunate Willas Tyrell was like to contract a sudden fatal case of sword-through-bowels, which could rather sour the alliance between Highgarden and Casterly Rock. I should say something, but what? Pardon me, Father, but it's our brother she wants to marry?

"Tyrion."

He gave a resigned smile. "Do I hear the herald summoning me to the lists?"

"Your whoring is a weakness in you," Lord Tywin said without preamble, "but perhaps some share of the blame is mine. Since you stand no taller than a boy, I have found it easy to forget that you are in truth a man grown, with all of a man's baser needs. It is past time you were wed."

I was wed, or have you forgotten? Tyrion's mouth twisted, and the noise emerged that was half laugh and half snarl.

"Does the prospect of marriage amuse you?"

"Only imagining what a bugger-all handsome bridegroom I'll make." A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey's court . . . and away from Cersei and their father.

On the other hand, there was Shae. She will not like this, for all she swears that she is content to be my whore.

That was scarcely a point to sway his father, however, so Tyrion squirmed higher in his seat and said, "You mean to wed me to Sansa Stark. But won't the Tyrells take the match as an affront, if they have designs on the girl?"

"Quite so," said Ser Kevan, "and any lingering resentments should be soothed by the offer of Cersei for his Willas."

Tyrion rubbed at the raw stub of his nose. The scar tissue itched abominably sometimes. "His Grace the royal pustule has made Sansa's life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father."

"Why, do you plan to mistreat her?" His father sounded more curious than concerned. "The girl's happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours. Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark."

"She is no more than a child."

"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."

Shae is all the woman I need just now, he thought, and Sansa's a girl, no matter what you say. "If your purpose here is to keep her from the Tyrells, why not return her to her mother? Perhaps that would convince Robb Stark to bend the knee."

Lord Tywin's look was scornful. "Send her to Riverrun and her mother will match her with a Blackwood or a Mallister to shore up her son's alliances along the Trident. Send her north, and she will be wed to some Manderly or Umber before the moon turns. Yet she is no less dangerous here at court, as this business with the Tyrells should prove. She must marry a Lannister, and soon."

"The man who weds Sansa Stark can claim Winterfell in her name," his uncle Kevan put in. "Had that not occurred to you?"

"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"

Ser Kevan hesitated. "If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words . . . but to consummate, no . . . I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna's boy Tion as well, else he might serve."

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

"You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have." He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. "I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter."

So he wed her to Jon Arryn, who was old enough to be her grandfather. Tyrion was more inclined to be thankful than angry, considering what Lysa Arryn had become.

"When I offered you to Dorne I was told that the suggestion was an insult," Lord Tywin continued. "In later years I had similar answers from Yohn Royce and Leyton Hightower. I finally stooped so low as to suggest you might take the Florent girl Robert deflowered in his brother's wedding bed, but her father preferred to give her to one of his own household knights.

"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys . . ."

Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. "I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats."

"Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth, and still a maid. She is not uncomely. Why would you hesitate?"

Why indeed? "A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed."

"If you think your whores want you in their bed, you are an even greater fool than I suspected," said Lord Tywin. "You disappoint me, Tyrion. I had hoped this match would please you."

"Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there's more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter. Why Sansa Stark, and not her?" He looked into his father's cool green eyes with their bright flecks of gold.

Lord Tywin steepled his fingers beneath his chin. "Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?"

"I believe I am," he said, bristling. "I confess, I cannot prove it. Though no one can say I have not tried. Why, I plant my little seeds just as often as I can . . ."

"In the gutters and the ditches," finished Lord Tywin, "and in common ground where only bastard weeds take root. It is past time you kept your own garden." He rose to his feet. "You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell."

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. "Very good, Father," he said slowly, "but there's a big ugly roach in your rushes. Robb Stark is as capable as I am, presumably, and sworn to marry one of those fertile Freys. And once the Young Wolf sires a litter, any pups that Sansa births are heirs to nothing."

Lord Tywin was unconcerned. "Robb Stark will father no children on his fertile Frey, you have my word. There is a bit of news I have not yet seen fit to share with the council, though no doubt the good lords will hear it soon enough. The Young Wolf has taken Gawen Westerling's eldest daughter to wife."

For a moment Tyrion could not believe he'd heard his father right. "He broke his sworn word?" he said, incredulous. "He threw away the Freys for . . ." Words failed him.

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." He shrugged. "She's long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ."

Having once married a whore, Tyrion could not entirely share his uncle's horror at the thought of wedding a girl whose great grandfather sold cloves. Even so . . . A sweet child, Ser Kevan had said, but many a poison was sweet as well. The Westerlings were old blood, but they had more pride than power. It would not surprise him to learn that Lady Sybell had brought more wealth to the marriage than her highborn husband. The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold. A romantic ruin, though, jutting up so brave above the sea. "I am surprised," Tyrion had to confess. "I thought Robb Stark had better sense."

"He is a boy of sixteen," said Lord Tywin. "At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor."

"He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?"

Ser Kevan answered. "He chose the girl's honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said, and then, "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon."

 

 -----End Chapter -----