Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

[HoodedCrow]

Let’s just say YOUR parents tried to have you killed, talked openly about disinheriting you, said you were not their child, gave you crap jobs to do, had you believe your wife was a whore and manipulated you into a gang rape when you were 13, committed genocide proudly, caused multiple people to die, and banged your quasi girlfriend, would you be afraid for your life and to disobey them or no?

[Mladen]

53 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Let’s just say YOUR parents tried to have you killed, talked openly about disinheriting you, said you were not their child, gave you crap jobs to do, had you believe your wife was a whore and manipulated you into a gang rape when you were 13, committed genocide proudly, caused multiple people to die, and banged your quasi girlfriend, would you be afraid for your life and to disobey them or no?

So you are arguing that Tyrion has been actively afraid of Tywin? If he was THAT terrified of Tywin, why couldn't he have raped Sansa at Tywin's command? The thing is, as the entire quoted chapter at the previous page clearly shows, Kevan and Tywin made Tyrion more susceptible by offering him THE BIGGEST POSSIBLE PRIZE he could have hoped for. Tyrion have been disobeying Tywin for quite some time. I am sorry but if you are going to argue that he was afraid for his life, I would like to see a concrete evidence of that. Not some meta analysis of the text, but Tyrion understanding that not marrying Sansa means death.

And let we not forget that Sansa could have been married to Lancel. So, the pressure wasn't THAT big on him. Kevan clearly says that Lancel could have said the vows but that he is too weak for consumption. Which could have waited. Tyrion went along with the plan. Tyrion accepted what was offered to him. Yes, he was kind to Sansa, if not raping her is a token of kindness and not well, basic human decency. He made her life somewhat easier although they were doomed from the beginning. And later, he even acknowledges that he desires her. That he is attracted to her. He wanted that. It was wrong, but he wanted it. 

[HoodedCrow]

Tyrion was afraid of Tyrion and his actions. Tyrion was also a very brave person, recall when Catelyn kidnapped him or when he faced down Lysa and “make the little man fly”or when he faced down a malicious Joffrey. Nobody around him had any sense of decency, so when he was legally and familiarly pressured to “rape” Sansa (and recall to this very day people say that raping your wife is legal) he did not. He would have guaurenteed his claim on WF. Perhaps he hoped the lady would appreciate him for his many good qualities eventually. Actually, she did start to, as introspectively immature as she was.

Now, here’s a challenge, try to imagine that your father was as brutish and homicidal as Tywin. How could you not be afraid of disobeying? He certainly withstood humiliation and risk. Tyrion was a risk taker, but it doesn’t mean paternal(and sibling) abuse didn’t partly cause this recklessness..

Tyrion wasn’t stupid enough not to be afraid of Tywin, although he probably didn’t think the guy would adjudicate against him even, if he put him in life threatening positions, collude to manipulate him into gang raping his wife, or seek to disinherit him. People are scared of their parents for much less.

Neither do I think Sansa should have gone along with it unless she was willing, but those are very modern ideas. They were married.

Seriously, only Patchface wouldn’t have been intimidated by Tywin. I wonder how long anyone here would last, if they grew up with the Rains of Castamere.

[Kat Scott]

Cognitive dissonance fits.  So does just plain stupid and selfish.  

[Mladen]

8 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

and recall to this very day people say that raping your wife is legal

True, but Tyrion is aware that sexual intercourse with Sansa is rape. Hence, that would be rape. He knows he has no consent to do that. 

ASOIAF is not some historical essay, but a fantasy series written by an author with rather modern views. It is intended for reader in 21st century. Just because said intercourse would be legal, doesn't mean we, as readers, should see it as OK. And Martin CLEARLY doesn't want us to look it through the prism of medieval society. The entire thing is written in a way that we do know that it would be wrong. And that Tyrion is doing the right thing.

8 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Tyrion wasn’t stupid enough not to be afraid of Tywin, although he probably didn’t think the guy would adjudicate against him even, if he put him in life threatening positions, collude to manipulate him into gang raping his wife, or seek to disinherit him. People are scared of their parents for much less.

This is not about general state of Tyrion's mind. This is about very particular situation and whether Tyrion did feel like he is in a life-threatening situation. He didn't as we do know that Kevan offered Lancel as a substitute. I do imagine that Tywin wanted to give Winterfell to Tyrion so he couldn't claim Casterly Rock in the future. Tyrion knows Tywin has no plans of giving him Rock, that much is clear by the moment marriage is brought up. So, Tyrion knows what this is all about. And that is why he was goaded, not forced.

[HoodedCrow]

Okay, goaded by a homicidal father, and Tyrion backs off consummation the marriage despite all the enticements, jeering and threats. And covers for her suspected poisoning of Joffrey.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Okay, goaded by a homicidal father, and Tyrion backs off consummation the marriage despite all the enticements, jeering and threats. And covers for her suspected poisoning of Joffrey.

Tyrion could allow one of his cousins to marry Sansa. Fact, Tyrion asks her if she'd prefer that. Tyrion should know what her response would be know would be merely to placate him, that she would merely see it as a trick. Ultimately his offer was meant to ease his own guilty conscience than try to make Sansa comfortable; to give him an excuse. He was not in fear for his life when he accepted Tywin's proposal nor of losing his cushy life as of a nobleman since, he was not really intergal to Tywin's plan. He never once thought there was real risk to him saying no.  Whether Sansa married Lancel or any other cousin of Tyrion, Tywin could not care less; he desired the north, Tyrion's momentary want for power seems to have overruled his common decency; honestly, he knew the 12 year old girl should prefer a pretty boy near her own age. And over the scarred dwarf about twice her age with he does not cast blame on Sansa. True. But in the end it would not help in the slightest; he's been witnessed making threats against Joffery multiple times by multiple witnesses, and was the one to hand the drink to which people think poisoned Joffery(of course Tyrion would rather have a victim-complex about this forgeting all his own actions to which would give near anyone reason to think him guilty).  No matter what he says people are going to condemn him. 

[Lollygag]

Fear of one's life/afraid for one's life are being used in this discussion and they're not the right words. That said, I'm not sure what the accurate and concise terminology would be for someone who knows they're in grave danger while the typical signs of fear are missing.

 

My very not-concise interpretation of Tyrion's situation:

Tyrion knew Tywin has tried to kill him before for no reason and basically lives day-to-day with this. Note in the conversation where Tyrion accused Tywin of trying to murder him that Tyrion isn’t shocked by the realization that his father truly wants him dead, that Tywin isn’t shocked by the accusation, and that Tyrion isn’t surprised at all by Tywin’s lack of denials in trying to kill him. This is nothing new and they’ve been through this before. Tyrion lives with the knowledge that Tywin is always looking to end him, but also that Tywin’s hands are tied as Tyrion is well-liked throughout the extended family except for Tywin, Cersei, and Joff meaning that Tywin would have to be careful. He also wouldn’t care to have the kinslayer title attached to him. He’s already aware of stigma Jaime’s kingslayer causes him. It would be a liability. He waits for opportunities to arise where Tyrion can be killed in a way that keeps his hands clean.

Knowing that someone wants you dead or knowledge of potentially dying doesn’t necessarily equate to being in fear for one’s life, especially in a place as violent and brutal as Westeros. I think we should be careful not to project modern views of death and dying onto medieval-based fantasy characters who live in a completely different world. The term being afraid for one’s life has a certain connotation: it implies the sort of staccato fear of a person being chased by someone with a weapon or the constant anxiety faced by an abused wife whose husband may kill her at any time if he gets too triggered.

While I see that Tyrion was very much aware of Tywin trying to kill him, I don’t see anything that I would characterize as fear. I see wariness more than anything which isn't the same thing. We can’t use the presence of fear as an indicator that someone thinks they may be killed because there’s just too many times especially in this world where death and brutality are the norm where this doesn’t work. I don’t see this sort of fear in Tyrion when he thinks that Cersei tried to have him killed in the Battle of Blackwater or when she replaced Maester Pycelle with an unknown maester to finish the job. He knows she’ll try to kill him again. He’s hardly quaking in his boots. Ned knew he may likely die in the black cells but I wouldn’t characterize him as having fear for his life. Men go into battle knowing the odds are high that they will die and maybe die painfully. Most wouldn't be characterized as being “afraid for one’s life”. The Hound during Blackwater however is a good example of a man in battle who is afraid for his life. Likewise for women going into childbirth which is very risky in Westeros. They are fully aware of the odds that they may lose their lives, yet also here, I wouldn’t characterize this as they being in fear for their lives. I don't see Catelyn as being in fear for her life when fighting the catspaw. While Catelyn stood to die here and was very close to that, it was Bran's death she feared for, not so much her own.   Absence of fear or outward signs of fear =/= characters think they’re safe from murder/death or anything else that's very bad, nor is the presence of fear necessarily an accurate reflection of the actual danger at hand.

 

One might call some of these examples of cognitive dissonance.

 

[HoodedCrow]

So Tyrion marries Sansa, and does not consummate the marriage, which buys her time and other potential choices, (something he well knows)while it brings him only moral sustenance, and perhaps a power couple situation when Sansa matures. s Lancel is not a great option, as he is under the sway of people who will not defend her. He was a part of offing his King for Cersei...who he just happened to be sleeping with. He looks nicer, but he is not a good guy.

Tyrion is almost constantly in danger from Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Catelyn, Lysa, SR and whoever is messing with the Kingsguard. There is a psychological toll from this friendly and unfriendly fire. Actually, it is something Sansa and he have in common, except Sansa is needed as a hostage, alive.

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

So Tyrion marries Sansa, and does not consummate the marriage, which buys her time and other potential choices, (something he well knows)while it brings him only moral sustenance, and perhaps a power couple situation when Sansa matures.

It buys her nothing. No one is going to believe Sansa was not properly bedded by one such as leecerous as Tyrion. It brings him moral sustenance certianly but does not give Sansa anymore options.

4 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Lancel is not a great option, as he is under the sway of people who will not defend her. He was a part of offing his King for Cersei...who he just happened to be sleeping with. He looks nicer, but he is not a good guy.

Tyrion is a rapist, murderer, and would set up his niece and nephew against eachother all to get his petty revenge on Cersi for her transgressions against him to which honestly given all the stuff he's done to her prior(poisoning her, taking away her allies, kidnapping her son etc), he has no real high ground; truth be told she's more reason to want him dead than he does her. Lancel is not a particularly good guy, but he is certianly not worse than Tyrion in terms of morality. And Tyrion could protect sansa no more from his family than Lancel could; should Tywin wish to see her gangraped or murdererd Tyrion could/would not do anything. 

And to be clear Lancel isn't even the only option; Tyrion has other cousins, close to Sansa's age and who would Sansa find more appealing; hell, even Tommen would have been a viable canindate, and he'd work perfectly fine as a husband.

It's clear he married Sansa for himself, not out some sort of fear for his life or losing his comfortable life, but because he recognized just how big of a catch Sansa really is for someone like him. 

Tyrion could refuse Tywin. He has said no to Tywin before, and disobeyed him before(his brazen whoring, and drinking, bringing Shae to KL protesting initially when Tywin tasked him with leading the Hillmen of the vale  into battle only to agree when Tywin offered a place in the baggage train instead). This is not a situation to where his back against the wall.  

 

 

[Lollygag]

Tyrion freely agreeing to marry Sansa for his own complicated reasons and also being unable to say no to Tywin without significant consequences  if he had chosen that are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are both true.

Painting the positions of Tyrion chose to marry Sansa freely vs Tyrion couldn’t say no to Tywin without consequences is an artificial conflict. Tyrion choosing to marry Sansa only made the problems resulting from his saying no a mute point, but no less true.

 

[HoodedCrow]

Thanks, Lollygag, you studied philosophy?

[Varysblackfyre321]

53 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Thanks, Lollygag, you studied philosophy?

Why can't Tyrion simply allow one of his younger prettier cousins to marry Sansa? Or allow Tommen to marry her?  Why is he a better for her than all the other eligible lanister males? 

How exactly is accepting Tywin's offer for her benefit? Again Tyrion cannot protect her from his family; if Tywin wished to have the girl destroyed there's nothing Tyrion could do. His power is an extension of Tywin, to which is why he hasn't yet lost his head for kidnapping a prince and threatening the king. 

You cannot say he feared he'd lose his life or exile or any real punishment since he was never integral to Tywin's plan to secure to the north; Tyrion knows this.  There was no threat in saying no; Tywin already has recognized the value in Tyrion by allowing him to stay on the small council as master of coin instead of punishing him for threatening to whip and rape 8 year old Tommen if Cersi allowed the same to one of Tyrion's prostitute(yes, I know she wasn't really one Tyrion),  Cersi took as insurance for the abduction of Tommen. 

The only thing to which would be wounded should Tyrion refuse is Tyrion's feelings of worth; Tywin remark on this possibly being Tyrion's only chance, rang true; not many lords of appropriate rank would offer their female kin to marry a monster. Like with leading the hillmen, it's not any threat of Tywin's that ultimately gets Tyrion but appealing to Tyrion's feelings of insecurity; he could have ridden in a baggage train; Tyrion elected to instead lead the Hillmen rather than show weakness to his father. 

 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Thanks, Lollygag, you studied philosophy?

You're welcome. I've studied a bit here and there but I need to brush up. I've forgotten a lot.

[Angel Eyes]

I'm not sure I like the route Sansa's taking with being compliant with Littlefinger. I thought she'd be better than Cersei, and not aid in kinslaying.

It's funny that on the wiki, it's mentioned what Sansa likes, but it doesn't describe her personality.

[MostlyMoody]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It's funny that on the wiki, it's mentioned what Sansa likes, but it doesn't describe her personality.

It's very appropriate actually. She doesn't really have a personality yet, beyond her societal expectations and superficial likes.

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm not sure I like the route Sansa's taking with being compliant with Littlefinger. I thought she'd be better than Cersei, and not aid in kinslaying.

It's funny that on the wiki, it's mentioned what Sansa likes, but it doesn't describe her personality.

Robbin could considered to be far enough apart from her in terms of being related to not truly qualifying as really kin to her-I mean Robert is a cousin to any natural born member of house Targyen-no one's calling him kinslayer. 

And she at this is merely trying to survive;  she tried being a hero, with saving Donthos; to show his gratitude he basiclly sold her to LF. Donthos betrayed her; just about most non-parental authority figures in her life have betrayed in some way by now, or abandoned her when they could no longer have any use or exploited her

Shes jaded at this point.

She merely wants to survive at this point, and LF is her best bet; she takes no joy in Robin's death but if it comes down between him or her she's going to likely save herself every time.

I'd say see started off as naive, conservative, and dutiful, charming(in the way of a lady), consciousness, bossy and shallow(as most 11 year olds of would be) yet emphatic at times

Later she grows to be far less shallow, less bossy, but more distrusting of everything and everyone. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robbin could considered to be far enough apart from her in terms of being related to not truly qualifying as really kin to her-I mean Robert is a cousin to any natural born member of house Targyen-no one's calling him kinslayer. 

And she at this is merely trying to survive;  she tried being a hero, with saving Donthos; to show his gratitude he basiclly sold her to LF. Donthos betrayed her; just about most non-parental authority figures in her life have betrayed in some way by now, or abandoned her when they could no longer have any use or exploited her

Shes jaded at this point.

She merely wants to survive at this point, and LF is her best bet; she takes no joy in Robin's death but if it comes down between him or her she's going to likely save herself every time.

I'd say see started off as naive, conservative, and dutiful, charming(in the way of a lady), consciousness, bossy and shallow(as most 11 year olds of would be) yet emphatic at times

Later she grows to be far less shallow, less bossy, but more distrusting of everything and everyone. 

But they are cousins; their mothers are sisters. 

As I said, I don’t think I like the direction she’s taking. We don’t need another Cersei.

[Nevets]

22 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm not sure I like the route Sansa's taking with being compliant with Littlefinger. I thought she'd be better than Cersei, and not aid in kinslaying.

It's funny that on the wiki, it's mentioned what Sansa likes, but it doesn't describe her personality.

While I suspect that Littlefinger is using drugs to harm Robert, or at least keep him complacent and compliant, I see no indication that Sansa is intent on doing him any harm at all.  In fact, she seems to be doing everything she can to make him stronger.

I read the comment about the maester being concerned about the boy, but Sansa and "her father" as having other priorities to mean that she is worried about Robert the Lord, who cannot go down the mountain tied to a mule.

In any case, it is definitely not in LF's interest for Robert to die at this point.  His hold on power in the Vale goes through his guardianship of Robert.  He loses that he is in trouble.  But I can easily see him keeping Robert weakened.