Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

[LiveFirstDieLater]

44 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa did what she had to do to stay alive, just like Arya did, just like Jon did, just like Tyrion did, Dany, Varys, Theon, and virtually everybody in-story.

She had to lie to her king about her kin and betray her father to the woman who killed her familiar? To survive? Wtf?

No she didn’t.

After that she survives, but that’s not a reason to laud someone nor a qualification for my admiration. 

But trying to say that everything is morally equivalent because everyone doesn’t want to die is just wild...

Quote

So, sure, hang Sansa for her immoral behavior and her repeated betrayals, but don't claim she is any better or worse than anyone else in the story.

I’m not hanging anyone, I’m judging the actions of a fictional character, let’s keep some perspective...

And again, no everyone isn’t morally equivalent, that’s a cop out of epic proportions.

Quote

Why wouldn't Arya have survived? Oh, I don't know. I can imagine her launching herself at Joffrey, Cersei or the Hound at any number of points -- Ned's execution, the trip to see the heads, the beatings at the lower bailey -- and quick as you please she would have been either killed outright or executed for trying to kill a royal. Arya is way too hot-headed to have survived that environment.

Not only did she survive, she escaped! 

And Sansa literally put herself in that situation!

It isn’t like they were in totally different situations... their own choices led them down different paths.

What if’s are usually pointless, but especially so when someone is saying things like, oh I don’t know, I imagine she kills everyone in the red keep and lives happily ever after... silly right?

More logically they would have kept her locked up and married her off or ransomed her. As is usually done with noble female captives. Arya isn’t the first and only girl to not to act a proper little lady.

[John Suburbs]

46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was thinking on an offshoot thread on Cersei, to give an example.

Yeah, but she's an easy one, since her dissonance is so blatant. I think you'll get a better discussion if you go with someone like Ned or Dany, or Saint Jon.

[John Suburbs]

35 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She had to lie to her king about her kin and betray her father to the woman who killed her familiar? To survive? Wtf?

No she didn’t.

After that she survives, but that’s not a reason to laud someone nor a qualification for my admiration. 

But trying to say that everything is morally equivalent because everyone doesn’t want to die is just wild...

I’m not hanging anyone, I’m judging the actions of a fictional character, let’s keep some perspective...

And again, no everyone isn’t morally equivalent, that’s a cop out of epic proportions.

Not only did she survive, she escaped! 

And Sansa literally put herself in that situation!

It isn’t like they were in totally different situations... their own choices led them down different paths.

What if’s are usually pointless, but especially so when someone is saying things like, oh I don’t know, I imagine she kills everyone in the red keep and lives happily ever after... silly right?

More logically they would have kept her locked up and married her off or ransomed her. As is usually done with noble female captives. Arya isn’t the first and only girl to not to act a proper little lady.

She was afraid. She didn't know what else to do.

If she had played her time in KL any different, she may very well have been killed.

This is a brutal world. Honor, aka morality, can often get you killed.

Judge her actions, but yes, keep some perspective and ask yourself if her actions are any worse than other "good" characters who have also made bad decisions.

I'm saying if Arya found herself in Sansa's situation -- a captive in King Joffrey's court -- she lacks the skills, and the humility, to navigate her way through it the way Sansa did. She would most likely have been killed.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

She was afraid. She didn't know what else to do.

If she had played her time in KL any different, she may very well have been killed.

This is a brutal world. Honor, aka morality, can often get you killed.

Judge her actions, but yes, keep some perspective and ask yourself if her actions are any worse than other "good" characters who have also made bad decisions.

I'm saying if Arya found herself in Sansa's situation -- a captive in King Joffrey's court -- she lacks the skills, and the humility, to navigate her way through it the way Sansa did. She would most likely have been killed.

 

I hear what you are saying, I don’t think I agree with it all, but I still enjoyed the back and forth... till next time.

I wouldn’t equate honor with morality,

Nor Sansa with humility,

But in a world full of hostility,

Where survival is the ultimate futility,

I hope you have a great weekend,

Cheers!

[Lollygag]

 

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The quote above shows resentment, she’s the only sibling he misses with reservations. Jon feels a real sense of love for and duty to his family, even Sansa, despite having never felt he was treated as one of them.

See post above. It's not really what he's called that bothers him, it's what it represents and we see what it represents to him here. Sansa is not the cause of his fate. She is only the reminder of it. To use the same word "cruel" for Cersei/Tyrion as for Sansa/Jon is a major misrepresentation. 

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And yet we see how differently characters in the story behave... we can make excuses and try to explain why Sansa is that way, but it doesn’t make the behavior less repugnant.

The difference between this example of Bran and Sansa only ever calling him that couldn’t be more stark (see what I did there). Can you imagine Bran calling Jon a bastard to his face all the time? I can’t 

I think Bran called Jon "Jon" a vast majority of the time and I'd speculate that this was the case for all of the Stark kids. Jon definitely noticed the title from Sansa, but that anyone was "all the time" calling him "my bastard brother/half-brother Jon" instead of just "Jon" is exaggerating by quite a bit.

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Yoren is a good man.

This is a great example of Sansa being superficial... she doesn’t like him because he’s dirty, her thinking goes little deeper than that.

See above. This is the same as what Jon sees. Tyrion calls him on it and he blows up.

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She shows very little empathy at all in my recollection, but if you want to show examples, maybe I’m forgetting some...

I just pointed this out a few hours ago in a reply to you ??????

 

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sacrificing for someone else...saving Dontos from dying, and painfully at that. She'd have gotten it badly from Joff if the Hound hadn't stepped in.

And this...to which I'll add her singing during the Battle of the Blackwater to help calm people when Cersei wouldn't do anything.

15 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Did you forget that she had attempted to help Lancel during Blackwater? Or saving Dontos? Or lowborn women with child?

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But in this case everyone else from the North seems to see how fucked up this whole thing was... she’s grown up with these people all her life... it’s some heartless shit not to care about the kids death, let alone Jeyne’s dad, or Jeyne herself! And Jory’s fate still makes me upset!!!

 

Will you show me where the other Starks besides Ned dwelled on these things? In general, we're typically not around characters when they get the bad news about someone as it's not a great read and if it was done for every character and every death, that's all we'd ever read. Cersei rarely thinks about Joff. Doesn't mean at all that she just forgot him. You'd have to demonstrate the difference between with text between not portraying grief just because it's assumed and when Sansa is being self-centered and doesn't register it. Every given character mourning a long list of other characters, ugh, bad read and not possible.

These are lessons Sansa has to learn as all of the characters do. She's heartless when it comes to Jeyne's grief and the loss of Jeyne's dad. But then she gets the same hand dealt to her and eventually she understands. She not as sympathetic as anyone would like when Joff threatened Mycah, but when Joff threatened Dontos, she spoke up.

AGOT Sansa IV
She chose a simple dress of dark grey wool, plainly cut but richly embroidered around the collar and sleeves. Her fingers felt thick and clumsy as she struggled with the silver fastenings without the benefit of servants. Jeyne Poole had been confined with her, but Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop sobbing about her father.

AGOT Sansa VI

When they finally came for her in truth, Sansa never heard their footsteps. It was Joffrey who opened her door, not Ser Ilyn but the boy who had been her prince. She was in bed, curled up tight, her curtains drawn, and she could not have said if it was noon or midnight. The first thing she heard was the slam of the door. Then her bed hangings were yanked back, and she threw up a hand against the sudden light and saw them standing over her.

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ned wanted to raise Rob and Jon as brothers... Cat blamed a child for some perceived sin committed by a woman he never knew. Nothing impossible about that situation, plenty of people have raised children who are not their own... but this isn’t about Cat. When Ned died you better believe I wanted to scream “it should have been you”!

The only way to raise them brothers without the baggage Jon carries would have been to legitimize him. Which he didn't do and wouldn't have done. It's highly debatable if he would have if Catelyn had not objected because of RLJ and we don't know Lyanna's promise. Ned doesn't think of Jon as his son and it's cited as evidence that Ned isn't his father. See the post linked up top. 

And I agree with the Cersei parallels. Except some parallels run in the negative and we often learn to not to be certain things. Parallels would be redundant if the were exact replications.

ACOK Sansa VI

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

[Enter Marg]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

Strange how Arya managed to survive Harrenhal with the Lannister soldiers brazenly committing war crimes, without the protection afforded to her by being the sister of a King, but is too hot-headed to survive in KL.

 

 

Robb will kill you all, she thought, exulting. "It's . . . terrible, my lord. My brother is a vile traitor."

"Robb's a traitor." Sansa knew the words by rote. "I had no part in whatever he did."

"My father was a traitor," Sansa said at once. "And my brother and lady mother are traitors as well." That reflex she had learned quickly. "I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey."

When they told him that Robb had been proclaimed King in the North, his rage had been a fearsome thing, and he had sent Ser Boros to beat her.

Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. The others obeyed without question . . . except for the Hound, but Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that.

What could it mean? Should she take it to the queen to prove that she was being good? Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased.

"Of course he died, he had my quarrel in his throat. There was a woman throwing rocks, I got her as well, but only in the arm." Frowning, he lowered the crossbow. "I'd shoot you too, but if I do Mother says they'd kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you'll just be punished and we'll send word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn't yield. Dog, hit her."

Boros shoved a meaty hand down the front of Sansa's bodice and gave a hard yank. The silk came tearing away, baring her to the waist. Sansa covered her breasts with her hands. She could hear sniggers, far off and cruel. "Beat her bloody," Joffrey said, "we'll see how her brother fancies—"

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman's sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. "A monster," she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. "Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well."

 

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hound doesn’t get sent to kill him. Not to mention she feels no remorse for his fate.

Cersei is given the prophesy by Magi the Frog, and in her attempt to deny it, pushes her childhood friend down a well. So she could pretend it didn’t happen and still have her literal picture esque future with Rhaegar (she actually made a picture).

Both victims were in love with the sibling of Sansa/Cersei.

Maybe i'm wrong, but wasn't Sandor already sent to find Mycah?

There is no evidence that Mycah was in love with Arya.

[Moonmoon]

As someone who loves both sisters, I really don't like people comparing their situations. Its seems unfair. Sansa can't survive in arya's situation and not only because she's not a fighter but also because she's older, she can't hide her beauty or gender. Honestly, I don't know what people expected her to do in kl. She was strictly followed, her maids were spies who were frequently changed and the gates were highly guarded. There was no one she could trust there. The people she trusted betrayed her one after the other. Sansa had tyrells (who abandoned her), hound (an unstable scary lannister dog) and dontos (who was littlefinger's man)...its not a long list and not the best choices. My point is sansa, a non-fighter, is surrounded by enemies who use her as a pawn. Even if she made her escape alone, she wouldn't have survived out there. I mean imagine a 12 year old beautiful red haired maid traveling on the road alone. *shudders*

I think she did well enough in kl. She did and said whatever her captors wanted from her. Let others think she's stupid and undermine her while she conspired her escape with dontos. When she was offered a chance to get away from lannisters by marrying into tyrells, she took it. After her tyrell plan backfired, she quietly continued her plotting with dontos behind tyrion's back. She had no way of knowing that littlefinger was using dontos to snatch her away. Given her circumstances,  I don't think she would have done anything else. She's too young and inexperienced to play game of thrones in a place full of enemies. 

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Jon's oathbreaking

Even Jon himself thinks that he commited oathbreaking.

[Lollygag]

2 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Even Jon himself thinks that he commited oathbreaking.

Yeah, I know. I think he made the right choices IMHO despite the oathbreaking though he really failed to sell them. I was referring to thread after thread of people...oh, I'm sure you've noticed what's going on there.

[Kandrax]

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

sure you've noticed what's going on there.

Yeah, i have. I'm not her fan, but the fact  that she is more hated than some sons of bitches, annoys me.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Kandrax said:

Yeah, i have. I'm not her fan, but the fact  that she is more hated than some sons of bitches, annoys me.

Same here.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I hear what you are saying, I don’t think I agree with it all, but I still enjoyed the back and forth... till next time.

I wouldn’t equate honor with morality,

Nor Sansa with humility,

But in a world full of hostility,

Where survival is the ultimate futility,

I hope you have a great weekend,

Cheers!

Cheers to you. I'm gonna chop your post a bit and yap because I agree with the below bit.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I wouldn’t equate honor with morality,

Nor Sansa with humility,

But in a world full of hostility,

Where survival is the ultimate futility,

The Sansa child made her decisions based on her intellect at the time. The Stark kids lived a protected privileged life. Even the bastard, Jon Snow, was reasonably well treated.  As a parent having dealt with whinny self centered teens, martin (who has no children) wrote his children well.

What is going to be interesting is how martin completes the story.

Since the death of Eddard, the Stark kids have had no peace. No safe haven. The example I am going to give about safe haven is probably gonna make you laugh your ass off.

Stray cat showed up at my abode. I tried to chase the starving cat away. The cat won. He now gets so comfortable, feeling safe and secure, that he stretches himself on my bed, and goes to sleep, snores and his claws protrude. Complete state of relaxation.

I don’t have to put a psychology label on martin’s fictional characters. It is a given that martin’s child characters are children making decisions based on child intellect.

The viscous world of Westeros is not a safe place whether one is a child, adolescent, adult or throw away old soul.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

 

 

Robb will kill you all, she thought, exulting. "It's . . . terrible, my lord. My brother is a vile traitor."

 

"Robb's a traitor." Sansa knew the words by rote. "I had no part in whatever he did."

 

"My father was a traitor," Sansa said at once. "And my brother and lady mother are traitors as well." That reflex she had learned quickly. "I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey."

 

When they told him that Robb had been proclaimed King in the North, his rage had been a fearsome thing, and he had sent Ser Boros to beat her.

 

Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. The others obeyed without question . . . except for the Hound, but Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that.

 

What could it mean? Should she take it to the queen to prove that she was being good? Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased.

 

"Of course he died, he had my quarrel in his throat. There was a woman throwing rocks, I got her as well, but only in the arm." Frowning, he lowered the crossbow. "I'd shoot you too, but if I do Mother says they'd kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you'll just be punished and we'll send word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn't yield. Dog, hit her."

 

Boros shoved a meaty hand down the front of Sansa's bodice and gave a hard yank. The silk came tearing away, baring her to the waist. Sansa covered her breasts with her hands. She could hear sniggers, far off and cruel. "Beat her bloody," Joffrey said, "we'll see how her brother fancies—"

 

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman's sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. "A monster," she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. "Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well."

 

 

 

What is your point with those quotes? I have no wish to criticise Sansa or suggest she had it easy - just criticise the laughable idea that Arya could only have survived her plot and not Sansa’s. Really it would have been by far the safer route to stay a hostage in KL, where you face regular beatings but it is in nobody’s interest for you to be killed.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

What is your point with those quotes? I have no wish to criticise Sansa or suggest she had it easy - just criticise the laughable idea that Arya could only have survived her plot and not Sansa’s. Really it would have been by far the safer route to stay a hostage in KL, where you face regular beatings but it is in nobody’s interest for you to be killed.

Even Sansa wasn't able to keep her temper in check all of the time. Read between the lines in the quotes above: that's a lot of beatings. She was an impulsive nine year old kid at that point, not the Arya of now. The Joff and Cersei that Sansa had would not have been the Joff and Cersei that Arya would have received. Sansa's submissiveness caused them to let their guard down and soften. There's a reason Jon gave her a sword. He believed she had died in the conflict in KL aware of her value as a hostage - he made certain assumptions as to what she did to reach that conclusion. Her impulsiveness got her in trouble. A lot. That's what all of Ned's talk of wolf's blood and Lyanna comparisons were about. To say Arya would have survived would be to contradict a lot of the early Arya characterization above. I'm not detracting from Arya. I think it makes her cartoonish to overestimate her abilities especially at 9. Arya as The Terminator/Super Powered Ninja Assassin is blah.

AFFC Cersei IV

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

An awkward silence followed. Have they all swallowed their tongues? Cersei thought, with irritation. It was enough to make her wonder why she bothered with a council.

 

10 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Let say that in this alt scenario Ned was still executed and escape failed.

From wikia

Indeed, it can be assumed that if Arya was in Sansa's place - at the first opportunity she would have grabbed some weapon and attempted (and maybe succeeded) in killing Joffrey and/or Cersei - and gotten herself killed.

 

 

 

[Bitterblooms]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Even Sansa wasn't able to keep her temper in check all of the time. Read between the lines in the quotes above: that's a lot of beatings. She was an impulsive nine year old kid at that point, not the Arya of now. The Joff and Cersei that Sansa had would not have been the Joff and Cersei that Arya would have received. Sansa's submissiveness caused them to let their guard down and soften. There's a reason Jon gave her a sword. He believed she had died in the conflict in KL aware of her value as a hostage - he made certain assumptions as to what she did to reach that conclusion. Her impulsiveness got her in trouble. A lot. That's what all of Ned's talk of wolf's blood and Lyanna comparisons were about. To say Arya would have survived would be to contradict a lot of the early Arya characterization above. I'm not detracting from Arya. I think it makes her cartoonish to overestimate her abilities especially at 9. Arya as The Terminator/Super Powered Ninja Assassin is blah.

AFFC Cersei IV

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

An awkward silence followed. Have they all swallowed their tongues? Cersei thought, with irritation. It was enough to make her wonder why she bothered with a council.

 

 

 

 

For the sake of argument:

Arya kept herself pretty well in check when she was paging for Goose Bolton in Harrenhal. She would have been a valuable hostage in kings landing; surely they wouldn't kill Her right away even If she did something stupid. Her actions at Harrenhal show she it's observant enough and has enough self-protection instinct to fly under the radar if necessary and take only calculated risks. 

I never really thought about quite how many physical beatings Sands undergoes, but when you see the clues lined up like that....sheesh.

[Lollygag]

24 minutes ago, Bitterblooms said:

For the sake of argument:

Arya kept herself pretty well in check when she was paging for Goose Bolton in Harrenhal. She would have been a valuable hostage in kings landing; surely they wouldn't kill Her right away even If she did something stupid. Her actions at Harrenhal show she it's observant enough and has enough self-protection instinct to fly under the radar if necessary and take only calculated risks. 

I never really thought about quite how many physical beatings Sands undergoes, but when you see the clues lined up like that....sheesh.

Yeah, I thought about Arya in Harrenhal and elsewhere, too. I think it goes to Arya learns her lessons well. When you think about Arya in a KL hostage setting, timing is key. She didn't have Yoren or her time in the Riverlands or Jaqen to guide her if she'd she been captured right away, it would have just been Syrio and it wouldn't have been enough at that point. If Arya had been captured and taken back to KL after she'd spent time in the Riverlands, after Yoren and Jaqen, I'd say it'd be different. Cersei also told Sansa that Joff beats her because Arya beating him embarrassed him implying Arya would have received even worse treatment, but I think it's also possible that Cersei was manipulating Sansa here too.

Arya would be a valuable as a hostage, but so was Ned. I suspect Joff was pushed a bit by LF, but it wouldn't take much to convince Joff to do that. Cersei put limits on Joff, it's clear that if she hadn't he'd have killed her and Joff was increasingly out of control and rebellious as he got older. Not long before the Purple Wedding, he was mouthing off to Tywin's face accusing him of being a coward during RR. If Joff and Cersei were reasonable that would be one thing, but both were time bombs and getting worse. And both were not bright. Also Sansa was asked repeatedly to proclaim her family traitors. I don't see 9 year old Arya doing this, especially as often as they put Sansa in the position where she had to say that.

The beatings are verging on unbelievable for me now that I really think about it.

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

 I have no wish to criticise Sansa or suggest she had it easy - just criticise the laughable idea that Arya could only have survived her plot and not Sansa’s. Really it would have been by far the safer route to stay a hostage in KL, where you face regular beatings but it is in nobody’s interest for you to be killed.

Arya has changed. Early Arya was fast, physical, driven by instincts and wolfblood. She has already beaten Joffrey bloody, and is satisfied she did the right thing. She'd do it again. She doesn't know what punishment she would have received if Lannister men had brought her in - we don't know either, but even that hard-faced fool Jaime found it repellent.

Arya learned restraint by watching the Tickler torture innocents over a long period. In other words, she learned after the strongest possible lesson - she might not have learned so fast in KL.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Oh Goody, a Sansa hate thread these are so rare! 

 

[Kandrax]

On 28.4.2018. at 10:52 AM, Springwatch said:

She has already beaten Joffrey bloody,

You mean pointed a  sword to lying Joffrey, after Nymeria disarmed him, saving Arya from certain death?