Avengers: Infinity War - SPOILERS THREAD

[Bastard of Boston]

RE: Why did the heroes struggle so much when they had stones of their own?

One of the themes explored in the Doctor Strange movie, and I think here too, is the idea that magic has a price. It's even a theme within the recent Doctor Strange run by Jason Aaron. In it, Aaron brilliantly addressed the problematic idea that magic can fix anything by introducing a price for the user. Sometimes the user simply doesn't have the budget to afford the price of the magic used -- the more effective a spell is, the more detrimental effect on the user or a proxy.

In the solo Doc Strange film, The Ancient One lost Mordo's loyalty when he discovered that she was channeling dark magic, and this was the only way she managed to stay alive so long. Strange was scolded by Wong when he played with time -- and Strange's acts were limited to small areas, not the time stream as a whole. Even Thanos' trick to bring Vision back was, again, limited to Vision. Everything else was progressing in real time, it's just Vision was rewound and inserted back into the regular flow of time.

I think it's fair to say the reason why the heroes simply didn't employ the stones they had was due to the potential cost of using the magic. Sure, Thanos had no qualms about using the stones, but he was also fine with sacrificing his daughter and half the universe.

It's like having a nuke. Your enemy may have a nuke, and they're willing to drop it on you, but unless you have the same taste for the destruction that would cause, you'd keep the nuke in your back pocket and find less effective ways to deal with the enemy.

In a way, Strange already utilized the stone by looking at all the potential futures, anyway. A more passive way of putting it to use, without actually effecting the timeline.

Vision had the Mind Stone, but it was established that the stone is what's contributing to his sentience. He didn't even understand it. You could argue Vision can't use the stone because the stone is already occupying a specific function.

And, continuing the idea of the potential price of wielding the stones, I truly believe we're going to see this price paid next year. Some of the OG Avengers are going to need to make the ultimate sacrifice to reset the universe.

There's a reason why all these stones were kept separate and hidden. The Novas and the Collector had no intention of using either of the stones they were holding for a reason.

Even the Space Stone was, you could argue, was kept contained in the Cube to dilute its sheer power. Same with the Mind Stone, which was in Loki's staff. Again, another way to contain the raw power of the stone.

You know you love a movie when you're completely ready to discuss all this nerdy shit to explain away any holes.

[Jeor]

Another note on the heroes' powers - I find it a validation of MCU's storytelling that someone like Captain America, who actually has very little weight in the way of powers/abilities (essentially just an incredible hand-to-hand combatant) can still give fans reassurance when he makes his entrance with Wanda/Vision etc.

Re: Strange using the Time stone, he did it by looking at the various futures. Looking at the futures might have actually alerted him to the fact that using the Time stone in any other way wouldn't have resulted in Thanos' defeat. Arguably there's also the extent of its power in terms of whether it can affect the whole universe (to rewind it before Thanos arrives).

Do we have a definite idea of the state of the Infinity Gauntlet at the end? I don't seem to recall Thanos wearing it when he looks at the sunrise.

RE: Heroes using the other stones. Power stone was taken at the start, Loki gave up the Tesseract at the start and isn't the type to use its raw power anyway. Would have loved to see the Collector try to use it but Thanos would have beaten him with two stones already. Soul Stone was nowhere to be found until the quest, and Vision didn't understand the Mind stone. So pretty much the Time Stone was the only one that could have been used.

It's interesting that we've seen each of the stones' powers in action except for the Soul stone. The Tesseract opened up the original portal in Avengers; the Power stone gave Ronan and the other wielders destructive capabilities (on a planetary level with Eson the Searcher); Mind stone allowed Loki with the scepter to mind control the heroes; Time stone we've seen used by Strange. We briefly saw the Reality stone at work when Thanos defeated the GoTG (it seemed quite ill-defined). But we have seen no idea what the Soul stone does - probably has some part to play enabling the return of the disintegratees.

[Jeor]

Oh, and the more I think about it - massive kudos to Heimdall for sacrificing himself to send somebody (Hulk) back to Earth to warn them. If he hadn't done that, everybody would have been toast before they knew it.

A great way to go out for a good minor character.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

So we all know everyone who "faded" isn't gone for good, especially with GotGv3 and Spidey 2 already slated. So how do we think they're coming back? Danvers/Capt. Marvel likely will play the Adam Warlock roll from the comics in taking the gauntlet back to "Reset" everything in the 616. Or...there is one theory going around that MCU Phase IV will include the introduction of the multiverse. Maybe that's how we get X-Men & Fantastic Four introduced. I don't think it's any coincidence the original team members remain. This makes the upcoming sequel much more streamlined and likely means some (or all) of the original six avengers will die in order to get back the half of the universe Thanos phased out.

[Mosi Mynn]

Love the explanation for the Stones, thanks.

[briantw]

16 hours ago, RumHam said:

I thought it was funny how we finally saw Parker's "spidey-sense" and it was alerting him to the incredibly obvious huge spaceship floating over the city.

One of my favorite lines in the whole film was Stan Lee's: "What's the matter, you kids never seen a spaceship before?"

[red snow]

4 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

So we all know everyone who "faded" isn't gone for good, especially with GotGv3 and Spidey 2 already slated. So how do we think they're coming back? Danvers/Capt. Marvel likely will play the Adam Warlock roll from the comics in taking the gauntlet back to "Reset" everything in the 616. Or...there is one theory going around that MCU Phase IV will include the introduction of the multiverse. Maybe that's how we get X-Men & Fantastic Four introduced. I don't think it's any coincidence the original team members remain. This makes the upcoming sequel much more streamlined and likely means some (or all) of the original six avengers will die in order to get back the half of the universe Thanos phased out.

Multiverse would allow them to separate the X-Men films from the MCU if they feel that's safe. Introduce the FF as interdimensional adventurers and you also have a way of bringing the X-Men in for events if need be.

[Macklunkey]

"It's like a pirate and an angel had a baby."

[red snow]

15 minutes ago, The Number 10 said:

"It's like a pirate and an angel had a baby."

Everyone Thor called rocket a rabbit got a giggle from me too

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Everyone else has talked about the dusting thing so I won't bother.

As I predicted from the trailers, I was bothered that Thanos didn't just explode anyone who tried fighting him. He has the power to destroy planets and throw moons thanks to the gauntlet, but somehow Iron Man can withstand some of the purple laser by using a shield? Why could Captain America hold him back? Thanos himself looked surprised so maybe it's something to do with the gauntlet not working as well as it could for him because he's evil, which would be a bit lame tbh. I realise that there wouldn't be much of a film if he just exploded everyone immediately, but it bugged me. Maybe he was just toying with Iron Man. Speaking of which...

Surprised/disappointed/relieved that that wasn't the end of Iron Man. It felt like a fake out that he was stabbed like that and then just zipped himself up again, but I want more of him in the next one. Really liked his action scenes in this one. His little breakdown when he realised he was stuck with Drax and Quill as allies was hilarious.

There's other holes to pick, such as why Doctor Strange decided to wait until they were on Titan to have a look at the future, rather than looking when they were deciding to go back to Earth or not. Didn't buy Thanos loving Gamora really, but it was nicely handled in the moment.

Why did Strange not use the time stone to trap Thanos like he did Dormamu (however you spell it)? Why did Thor, who spent the last film realising he didn't need his hammer to be powerful, decide that he now needed a new weapon? I've put these points together, because the Russos didn't make those decisions in the earlier films.

We found it weird that Scarlet Witch and Vision struggled with the black order people, but the significantly less powerful Cap, Falcon and Black Widow trashed them immediately.

Also the whole not trading lives thing sounds noble, but what about all those Wakandans dying so that there might be enough time for Vision to be separated from his stone?

It did a good job of showing what the reality stone did, because I had  no idea from Thor 2, but we weren't shown the purpose of the soul stone really, apart from it letting Thanos chat with Gamora.

My girlfriend and I both noticed T'challa's bulge when his army was forming up, which was hilarious and a little distracting.

 

I really liked the film. The Russos did a great job of managing what could have been an utter trainwreck. Drax is hilarious as ever and I loved Chris Hemsworth's performance. Some better use of the Avengers theme in the score here too.

 

[polishgenius]

12 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

Why did Strange not use the time stone to trap Thanos like he did Dormamu (however you spell it)?

Because Strange didn't trap Dormammu permanently- he just made a deal by threatening Dormammu with Time, which flustered him so much he ran away, essentially (of all the villain fuckups Marvel have made, Dormammu might be the most egregiously terrible). Since Thanos isn't befuddled by the very concept, there's no particular reason to believe the same thing would work and Thanos wouldn't just get the stone off him and break the loop himself eventually.

The other one didn't make sense. It's not even that he wanted another weapon, I could buy that if he'd tried to use his powers and failed (especially since the new weapon is meant to be more powerful than Mjollnir), but iirc he didn't use the lightning once without it. You don't need the feather to fly, Dumbo!

[Mosi Mynn]

I can't answer your questions as to why certain heroes did not use certain stones (except - did Strange have time to go into the future whilst he was on Earth?) - I suspect, as you say, no one thought of it in the previous films.  I felt that they did a good job of papering over this by showing how are heroes were different from Thanos - he was single minded and ruthless, they were emotional and often distracted.  I fear they might have to be like him to reverse all this in Part 2.

As to Thanos: can't explain why he didn't make more of the stones he had, really, except sometimes he likes to have fun, as Maw said.  

I noticed T'Challa's bulge too - does his suit have to be so ...snug?

Why does Thanos hate Nebula so much?  Almost as much as he "loved" Gamora.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Because Strange didn't trap Dormammu permanently- he just made a deal by threatening Dormammu with Time, which flustered him so much he ran away, essentially (of all the villain fuckups Marvel have made, Dormammu might be the most egregiously terrible). Since Thanos isn't befuddled by the very concept, there's no particular reason to believe the same thing would work and Thanos wouldn't just get the stone off him and break the loop himself eventually.

I thought Strange made a loop that he refused to break unless Dormmamu left Earth alone. It wasn’t that we was scared so much as trapped for eternity. I don’t know why this wouldn’t have worked for Thanos. Maybe Thanos wouldn’t give up, but I don’t think Strange would either, given the stakes.

 

I liked that the Red Skull showed up but I was disappointed that it’s not Hugo Weaving. I just thought “Mr Anderson!” as soon as he showed his face.

 

1 hour ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I can't answer your questions as to why certain heroes did not use certain stones (except - did Strange have time to go into the future whilst he was on Earth?) - I suspect, as you say, no one thought of it in the previous films. 

I'm sure he had enough time while they were on the ship arguing about the best course of action.

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I felt that they did a good job of papering over this by showing how are heroes were different from Thanos - he was single minded and ruthless, they were emotional and often distracted.  I fear they might have to be like him to reverse all this in Part 2.

I agree with this. The heroes' sentimentality and emotions are clearly a weakness and it was nice to see it as a theme throughout the film.

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I noticed T'Challa's bulge too - does his suit have to be so ...snug?

Glad it wasn't just us. I definitely didn't notice anything in previous films but it was pretty clear here.

[Mosi Mynn]

6 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

I thought Strange made a loop that he refused to break unless Dormmamu left Earth alone. It wasn’t that we was scared so much as trapped for eternity. I don’t know why this wouldn’t have worked for Thanos. Maybe Thanos wouldn’t give up, but I don’t think Strange would either, given the stakes.

Would that trick have worked against someone wielding all but one of the other Stones - particularly Reality and Power?

What I still don't understand (except for narrative purposes) is why no one cut Thanos' gauntlet arm off.  I get why Thor didn't - he wanted to cut out Thanos' heart - fair enough.  But why didn't Tony do it when they were trying to pull the glove off - especially when Quill was about to ruin their plan?

[RumHam]

I thought the way Strange defeated Dormammu was great... But it might not work on Thanos once he had some of the other stones. As for Thor needing a weapon, he specifically felt he needed one with the power of the Bifrost (like Heimdall's sword or Odin's spear.) I'm not sure why he thought that, but maybe they cut a scene during Thanos's initial attack where Heimdall's sword is effective against Thanos but then heimdall gets grievously wounded?

1 hour ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

We found it weird that Scarlet Witch and Vision struggled with the black order people, but the significantly less powerful Cap, Falcon and Black Widow trashed them immediately.

Also the whole not trading lives thing sounds noble, but what about all those Wakandans dying so that there might be enough time for Vision to be separated from his stone?

It did a good job of showing what the reality stone did, because I had  no idea from Thor 2, but we weren't shown the purpose of the soul stone really, apart from it letting Thanos chat with Gamora.

These are all really good points. The reality stone seemed totally different in Thor 2. 

Also Thor's excuse as to why Asgard didn't protect Nidavellir doesn't add up. Thanos had the gauntlet at the end of Age of Ultron, well before Asgard was destroyed. Presumably it was Loki-as-Odin who failed to protect them. 

[Corvinus85]

I don't know if this was already explained in the films (or discussed here) but how are Thanos and the Black Order so effective in tracking the stone locations? Thanos doesn't know where the soul stone is, but once he gains knowledge of the planet, at least, he knows exactly where to pop up. This includes how his people go straight for the time and mind stones on Earth.

[HokieStone]

On 4/27/2018 at 6:34 PM, red snow said:

Hopefully Agents of SHIELD hasn't doen anything with recent episodes that tie them too close to current continuity. Even a reference to Thor Ragnarok would leave them little room given how close the end of that film was to the start of Infinity.

AoS has obliquely referenced "Infinity War" in the last few weeks, and even directly referenced it this past week.  They have their own alien invasion plot going on - complete with a giant spaceship showing up - so it seems bizarre how they're going to reconcile all this.  Their aliens even made a passing reference to how they could help avert the coming war on Earth. Conveniently, most of the characters are trapped in a bunker with no outside communications.  But Daisy is on the outside, and that's where this past week's reference came in.  She met up with another person briefly, and he said something like have "Have you been paying attention to the crazy things happening in New York?"  She just sort of blew him off.  But it will be interesting this week to see if they have characters start turning to dust.  I don't know how they would explain that to viewers that haven't watched the movie.  I'm trying to think back to their tie-in to "Winter Soldier" - did they have anything up front that said "warning, this will contain spoilers for the movie"?

Meanwhile, the whole Agents of Shield plot line this season has revolved around the Earth literally being blown apart in the near future...which is something you'd think the Avengers would want to know about...but nope....

[Corvinus85]

On the subject of Thor's increased powers; since Marvel people who get hit by radiation end up having abilities, rather than dying, could Thor's powers have increased because he directly got hit by the star's radiation? Sure it could have killed him if he stayed much longer, but he didn't.

[Denvek]

My prediction for the next one is that Captain America is going to sacrifice himself at the Soul Stone planet as part of the plan to bring back the people who died at the end of this one. Why else have Red Skull as the guardian? If we're not seeing that planet again then it would have been Ronan as the guardian for the connection with Thanos and Gamora, but having Red Skull there and not having him meet Cap in Part II would be a massive letdown.

[Bastard of Boston]

4 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

 

As to Thanos: can't explain why he didn't make more of the stones he had, really, except sometimes he likes to have fun, as Maw said. 

One possibility is Thanos sees himself as benevolent and fair. Maybe the reason he didn't kill anyone he didn't have to was due to him leaving it up to his rapture.

I think Thanos' motivations were almost religious. He killed Gamora, but that was for his "greater good." There's Heimdall and Loki, but both were on the ship with the other massacred Asgardians. They were part of the half that was "supposed" to die.

The only other person he intended to kill was Tony, and you could argue it was out of character for Thanos, as he was frustrated at that point and needed to impress upon the heroes that he wasn't going to play around for much longer. Nobody's perfect.

Ironically enough, as much of a murderer Thanos is, he has a strict code in how he goes about it.