Avengers: Infinity War - SPOILERS THREAD

[Jeor]

Saw this last night (living in Australia has its benefits in terms of release times) and they definitely took some risks. I thought they did a pretty good job of welding together a giant roster of characters and putting them in manageable groups. Some observations (still in spoilers just in case, not entirely sure of protocol):

Spoiler

 

• Thanos was great - he had clear motivations and decent character development. He also had a real menace to him and even the opening scene demonstrated how dangerous he really was. There was a highly credible threat level, where you felt lots was at stake, unlike some other Marvel movies. He was the unifying thread in what could have been an uncontrollable sprawling movie, and was the main character of the film.
• I did feel robbed at the ending - it really did seem (contrary to Marvel protestations) that Avengers 3 and 4 was one film cut into two. When the credits started rolling there was audible outrage from the movie theatre I was in. Essentially if this was a stand-alone movie it says that Thanos won. Moreover, it doesn't seem like he's on the path to domination of the universe (he himself says after he achieves his goal he's just going to rest, and then just watches the sunrise) so it seems somewhat final, as in Thanos wins but is himself no longer a threat either. All his henchmen are dead too. So apart from time travel (which feels like cheating) and/or a revenge story from the surviving heroes on Thanos (which would be fun to watch, but ultimately futile and not needed given he is no longer really a threat), I'm puzzled at what Part 2 could be.
• Continued frustration during the movie that none of the heroes did what was necessary. There were at least five occasions when they could have defeated Thanos (Quill cocked it up) or at least prevented him from getting an Infinity Stone (Time, Soul, Mind stones...arguably Loki didn't have to give away Space stone either, he's been indifferent to Thor's life before) but they were too sentimental to get the job done - perhaps a contrast to Thanos who always did what was necessary. Frustrating as a viewer to see all the heroes so naive, but I guess that's where the tension is.
• The Thor quest to get a new weapon was fun (love seeing Peter Dinklage involved too) but it was disappointing it turned out to be a red herring. Throughout the film I had aways thought Thor had the right idea and his plan would be the one that worked. Too bad it didn't (almost did, though, if he'd gone for the head as Thanos said). Anyway, at least he still survived (I think) and now has a badass weapon.
• The one bit of hope I think is that Strange did say at the end that "this was the only way" - perhaps they're still on track for the one future he saw where they won, although it had seemed that plan was wrecked by Quill, maybe that was part of what Strange foresaw. Perhaps it was Strange saying in a despairing way that they tried the only possible way and it failed. Anyway, Strange and all the rest on Titan are gone so presumably Stark is the only one left who knows what the Strange plan was, if it's still in play. Will have to re-watch to see if I can pick up anything more on this.

 

[denstorebog]

I won't be hiding spoilers - this thread is clearly marked.

Overall I'd rate this a very solid entry, 8 of 10 or so. Which is even more impressive given how many pitfalls there were for such a bloated movie to fall in. The characters and their different genres were handled well, and it wasn't until afterwards you realized how little some of the characters actually had to do in the movie. For example, I wish Cap and Bucky had had more interaction than a hug and a single line, but there's no way to please everyone here, and the movie hummed along nicely with a good balance between war and emotion.

The big, purple, elephant in the room, of course, is Thanos. And I'm simply not able to consider him a succesful villain. Or rather, he's a success and a failure mixed into one. Apart from the fact that he looked fake as shit in most of his scenes, he was very expressive and clearly driven by a sincere belief in his actions. I loved the idea of him going on a sort of hero's quest for the Soul Stone in the middle of the movie and feel that they could have done a lot more with this. It was a great device for putting a villain into perspective because it is usually reserved for the hero, and if half the movie had been about his mystical and heartbreaking journey and trials, as seen from his own POV, I would gladly have given up time spent on some of the heroes.

And as @Jeor says, he was appropriately menacing. There was a real sense of danger throughout the movie.

But.

As much as I liked watching him in his scenes, his motivation made absolutely zero sense. It was way, way down there on the same level as Ronan or Mads Mikkelsen or all of the other self-righteous, but clearly ridiculous MCU villains.

From what we're told, Thanos wants to exterminate exactly half the universe, no preference given to anyone. He wants to do this because the universe has "finite resources", and the idea was conceived on his own homeworld of Titan where people went hungry. He laid out the plan to the other Titans, who claimed that he was mad (uh-huh), so he set about doing it himself.

Even if we're supposed to be able to relate to a character who goes from "people are going hungry" to "exactly half of everything must die", the logic isn't there. If half of everyone on Earth died, it wouldn't make the other half better off, it would absolutely cripple means of production and ensure widespread suffering among everyone else. On top of that, the universe does not have finite resources as far as anyone knows, and even so, it doesn't have one population that shares everything. Some planetary populations might be a lot better off than others, but decimating half of them won't help the rest in any way.

Ah, but he is the mad Titan, so it's okay for his plan to be a bit unhinged. Except he seems pretty sane in his dealings with others and his ability to work towards a specific goal. Even if we're to believe that madness led him to concieve a plan with absolutely no logical foundation, we don't see that madness on display, and we aren't told where it came from / what caused it. I would have bought his plan if it has clearly been the machinations of an unhinged mind, but it wasn't.

This puts a lid on my enthusiasm for the movie, which would otherwise have been somewhere near the absolute top of the MCU. The final scene with Thanos looking at the sunset could have been poignant if his motivation had had some vailidty; instead it was more like "well done, asshole, you just murdered half of everyone, and it won't solve the problems you were trying the solve, why the fuck are you sitting there looking so content?"

Anyway. About the future.

So, Part II of Infinity War will obviously undo the ending of Part I, for better or worse. They've killed off a bunch of characters who are already slated for more sequels, so this is a no-brainer, and it's probably going to be time travel. The post-credits scene ended with a distress call to Captain Marvel, but I don't know if she's supposed to have any time travel powers. My main questions at this point are:

• Will Part II undo all of Part I, or just the ending? In other words, will Gamora and Loki also come back? My guess is Gamora, yes, Loki, no.
• The MCU movies between Part I and Part II are Captain Marvel and Ant-Man II. Captain Marvel is set during the 90'es, as I understand it, so it'll neatly introduce the character who will save the day next year, but in a non-intrusive way. And its post-credits scene will probably reference Nick Fury's distress call, setting up IW Part II perfectly. But how on Earth will Ant-Man II and its goofy tone fit in with the ending of IW Part I?
• Will it be significant that all of the original Avengers survived Part I (Iron Man, Cap, Hulk, Widow and Thor)? I love the idea of them somehow saving the expanded MCU universe that was built up around them, even if it seems a bit convenient.
• More of a long-term question, but once the dust settles, and Part I's gruesome ending is undone, how will the MCU top the sense of danger and urgency in subsequent movies? If half the heroes can be killed and brought back, is it even possible to make the audience believe in stakes anymore?

[ithanos]

About to go in & watch it again (this time in a better seating position relative the big screen).

Yeah I noticed, as the credits rolled, that the survivors all had top billing. Too bad the MCU's cache of villains is piss poor. With have of all sentient beings gone this would have been a great chance for heroes & villains to team up. Alas the likes if Galactus, Dr Doom, Mephisto, Magneto are all out on loan.

One thing did take me out of the movie when I watched it the first time was the scene with Thanos & The Collector. It dawned on me - wow we got The Sicario/Soldado guys; Brolin & Del Toro!

[Jeor]

I would have liked to see the Collector put up a bit of a fight. He's supposed to be a badass (at least in the Comics) and no one really used the power of any of the Infinity Stones to actively fight Thanos. He could have demonstrated it and Thanos (with two) still could have overpowered him. Anyway, that's just a minor thing...there's all sorts of little things we'd rather see.

Yes, pretty much all the survivors were the main act. I wonder if Hawkeye and Ant-Man will play a prominent role in Avengers 4? They were only mentioned in a couple of throwaway lines but that could be significant. I think they'd have to unwind just the end (the people who got disintegrated). Rewinding everything so that Loki, Gamora and everyone else still made it too would be a bit too much and severely undermine the stakes in any future epic movie of this proportion. The only other way would be to unwind things, and then have some Avengers really killed after that, and then have the Time Stone destroyed so that it couldn't be used again. 

On that note, really bummed that Loki got killed early on. He was a good anti-hero and complex character, which the MCU doesn't really have enough of. Given its villains are generally cardboard cut-outs and its heroes are all do-gooders with the odd acceptable personality flaw (arrogance), it was nice to have someone who had a bit more colour. Nebula is the only similar character.

Some small things that I'll have to look out for on a re-watch:

• I thought killing Maw (the telekenetic Thanos spokesman dude) was pretty cheap. Throwing him out into space? The guy could fly on earth, surely he wouldn't be so easily killed. I thought his eyes were open when he went out into space and he might not be dead.
• I was sure Black Widow disintegrated at the end but I must have got confused.
• Did Thanos have the gauntlet on him when he watched the sunrise?

Predictions for Avengers 4:

• Time travel of some sort will be involved and not all the disintegrated people will stay dead
• Thor and his new weapon will kill Thanos - given Thanos' near-invincibility, it's the only method that would seem to work and there's been a decent build-up to it.
• Some of the original Avengers will die permanently (even after they've been resurrected). They've talked about the next phase of the MCU and how some of the original stars' contracts are running out. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Stark or Rogers gets offed and are deemed to have run their course - they've both had extended movie runs and both have had precedent in the comics for being succeeded in their superhero identities by new people.

[Jeor]

1 hour ago, denstorebog said:

As much as I liked watching him in his scenes, his motivation made absolutely zero sense. It was way, way down there on the same level as Ronan or Mads Mikkelsen or all of the other self-righteous, but clearly ridiculous MCU villains.

Re: Thanos' motivation, on a much more broad level I could accept it, though as you say when you really think it through it was pretty silly. Even so, I think they tried to explain the 50% death thing by him saying it was "fair" in being random, hitting young and old, rich and poor alike. It was clear that he thought of himself as a benevolent dictator who was the only one with the guts to "save" the universe. Some people can be high-functioning deluded megalomaniacs, I guess.

[ants]

I thought Thanos was fantastic, especially his interaction with Gamora. Sure, his main thesis was wonky. But history has plenty of zealots with a flawed belief who can operate perfectly rationally. We don’t know much about Titan and whether his original argument made sense in the context of the race, culture and technological state of the world. But he clearly lived through his world’s collapse and self destruction, which could easily make him fanatical about an idea that doesn’t work for the rest of the galaxy. 

Overall, Marvel did a really good job. The only issue was killing off Spider-Man and Black Panther. No way would Sony allow that or that Marvel would kill off the only black superhero. So you know some are coming back. 

[Mosi Mynn]

Marvel can do no wrong in my eyes.  I was more excited about this than Star Wars.

It's an astonishing achievement.  Everyone gets their moment.  It didn't feel crowded to me at all.  The new team-ups are brilliant together.  Not only did they give everyone a chance to shine, with the possible exception of BP - but I'm sure he'll get more to do in the next one, but they had to introduce Thanos properly - which I think they did really well.  He was pretty effing scary - wonderfully set up at the very start, which had ramifications right to the end of the film.

Three things initially bothered me, but with the exception of one I understood them after thinking about it a bit:

• Gamora not realising what was going on with Thanos before he got the Soul Stone, when everyone in the cinema was screaming "Shutupshutpshutup!"  It makes complete sense that she would be the only one to not realise that he loved her.
• Doctor Strange giving up the Time Stone after everything he said .  I was gutted he did that, and so was Tony.  But this is the one time they win, right?  This is the only positive future he saw.  He said it was part of the design, the way it had to play out.  He knows something.  And all the Next Gen Avengers were dusted, so we know it's not permanent
• Where the hell was Thor at the end when everyone was trying to stop Thanos???  That’s the one I don’t understand.  Drama, I guess.  But I was practically screaming for him to come by the time Thanos got to Vision <wah>

 

Things I loved:

• The heroes’ entrances: Cap arriving to save Wanda and Vision; Thor getting to Wakanda (and everyone’s reaction to that); Wanda saving Nat and Okoye; Okoye and Nat saving Wanda.
• The Hulk being too scared to come out!
• The characters staying in character – Marvel do this so well.
• The team-ups: Stark and Strange; Rocket and Thor; need more Bruce and Shuri.
• Peter P’s end – really horrible to watch, but so well done.  The only thing that stopped me from completely losing it is that I know he’ll be back.
• Thanos could have been stopped twice if Thor and Peter Q had not succumbed to vengeance.
• Tony and Nebula being left together as the weirdest team up!
• The stinger – Come on, Captain Marvel!
• All of it, really. 

 

Things I need to happen next:

• Cap and Tony to meet up, make up, and go down fighting together (or retire: but I doubt either of them could do that)
• Cap to lift Stormbreaker and say: "Avengers Assemble"
• Doctor Strange to explain stuff.
• Shuri to meet Peter P and Tony 

 

Can’t wait for the next one.

[Jeor]

I actually got a bit annoyed with the continual missed opportunities for Thanos to be stopped. Though each had their reasons, 

I'll forgive Loki for giving him the Space stone - it was early on, Thanos only had one other stone, and he was looking to save his skin. 

I guess they also explained why Vision's stone couldn't be destroyed straight away, and given Thanos' eventual control of the Time stone that was never going to stick either.

Strange - I assume he's playing a long game here, and knew that giving Thanos the Time stone (or saving Tony's life) was important to the Plan.

Gamora - should have realised earlier and jumped off the cliff herself (I guess she did try to off herself but too late).

But the real indefensible one was Quill. To be fair, Nebula should have restrained him (I don't think she was involved in holding Thanos down) but that really was the grandaddy of them all in terms of missed opportunities. If he'd just waited ten more seconds he would have had a much better go at revenge.

I guess when you put it all together, it's the age old trope of the "good guys" not being as ruthless as the "bad guys" because they're either too naive or unwilling to do what's necessary. Which was totally the opposite of Thanos. Still, it always gets me how good guys trust the baddies to keep their promises (i.e. spare someone's life, stop torturing someone, etc). Why would they have any reason to keep to that once they've got what they want from you? (and are presumably more powerful from it)

 

[Jeor]

26 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Things I need to happen next:

  Hide contents

Cap and Tony need to meet, make up, and go down fighting together.

Doctor Strange needs to explain stuff.

Can’t wait for the next one.

Welcome MM!

Agree it would be nice to see what Dr Strange's plan was. I guess that might be revealed in Avengers 4.

I also concur that Captain America and Tony Stark are the likely ones to go down fighting in the sequel. They are the oldest in the franchise and they are both reportedly near the end of their multi-film deals. There are enough of the other Avengers to hold it together. Plus, the nature of their superhero identities (and their comic book history) means that there can still be another Captain America (Bucky?) or Iron Man (War Machine?) after them to continue onwards, if Marvel so wished.

[RumHam]

7 hours ago, denstorebog said:

 

• The MCU movies between Part I and Part II are Captain Marvel and Ant-Man II. Captain Marvel is set during the 90'es, as I understand it, so it'll neatly introduce the character who will save the day next year, but in a non-intrusive way. And its post-credits scene will probably reference Nick Fury's distress call, setting up IW Part II perfectly. But how on Earth will Ant-Man II and its goofy tone fit in with the ending of IW Part I?

Ant-Man 2 is set before Infinity War, shortly after Civil War. Which is kinda a shame because I'd love to get a movie set just after Infinity War that's kinda like Marvel's version of The Leftovers. We all know the finger snap is gonna be undone, but what happens in the immediate aftermath? Is Shuri queen now, for example? There'd be hundreds of stories to tell. 

That's also why I hope Avengers 4 doesn't resume the plot right where this one ended. It should pick up at least a couple years later where everyone's just had to live with what happened for a while, then someone figures out how to time travel without the time stone and fix it. Like maybe when Ant-Man and the Wasp come out of the multiverse at the end of Ant-Man 2 years have passed and they find out what happened while also realizing they may be able to undo it by going back in. 

[Mosi Mynn]

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Welcome MM!

Thanks! :-)

Haven't quite got the hang of quoting yet, so apologies if I balls this up!

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I actually got a bit annoyed with the continual missed opportunities for Thanos to be stopped. Though each had their reasons, 

...

But the real indefensible one was Quill. To be fair, Nebula should have restrained him (I don't think she was involved in holding Thanos down) but that really was the grandaddy of them all in terms of missed opportunities. If he'd just waited ten more seconds he would have had a much better go at revenge.

 

Oh I was shouting at both Thor and Quill!  But it was completely understandable from both of them.  And weirdly this was a time when the good guys were being as ruthless as the bad guys - blinded by vengeance, but still overly ruthless - and their emotional responses meant they failed.  And I guess Nebula was grief-stricken over Gamora, and did not know Quill well enough to realise what he would do.

With regards to the torturing - Thanos actually did keep his promise to both Strange and Gamora - or at least, maybe unwittingly, gave Tony and Nebula chances to survive - though he probably assumed both would be dead very soon.  I was fully expecting Thanos to kill Tony anyway, after what had happened to Peter Dinklage's world!

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Strange - I assume he's playing a long game here, and knew that giving Thanos the Time stone (or saving Tony's life) was important to the Plan.

Hopefully!  I'm guessing he also saw Captain Marvel maybe?  And maybe needed Thanos to have the gauntlet to get her into the fight?

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I also concur that Captain America and Tony Stark are the likely ones to go down fighting in the sequel. They are the oldest in the franchise and they are both reportedly near the end of their multi-film deals. There are enough of the other Avengers to hold it together. Plus, the nature of their superhero identities (and their comic book history) means that there can still be another Captain America (Bucky?) or Iron Man (War Machine?) after them to continue onwards, if Marvel so wished.

I was surprised when Bucky "died" and Steve didn't - but then we lost both Peters, Strange and BP too - and I assume they will all be back.  I fully expect Bucky to become Captain America.  The next Iron Man?  Would be great if Riri showed up.  But maybe the Iron Man "replacement" will be a composite of Strange (snark and money) and Shuri/Peter (genius inventors).

I forgot another team-up I loved: Rocket and Bucky - so brief yet so memorable!

[ithanos]

9 hours ago, denstorebog said:

I loved the idea of him going on a sort of hero's quest for the Soul Stone in the middle of the movie and feel that they could have done a lot more with this. It was a great device for putting a villain into perspective because it is usually reserved for the hero, and if half the movie had been about his mystical and heartbreaking journey and trials, as seen from his own POV, I would gladly have given up time spent on some of the heroes.

On second viewing this actually stood out for me. Why? Probably because of the fight fatigue to get several stages set up. I relaxed here and remembered my Thanos Quest. Such a fun mini read, but it showcased an important facet which Marvel chose not to take. That for each gem, Thanos tailored either guile or trickery, patience or treachery, interspersed with power. The Gauntlet felt truly earned at the end of it. Here, he blunt force takes five of the gems (admittedly the order in which he takes them becomes important if they are collectively used to gain the next gem), with the Soul Gem being the only one he quests to get which didn't require a show of power. 

By the way I think the 'gate keeper' at the Soul Gem place might have been Adam Warlock (or the In-Betweener?), since he mentions he is a former holder of the Gem and is forever burdened by it.    

8 hours ago, Jeor said:

I would have liked to see the Collector put up a bit of a fight. He's supposed to be a badass (at least in the Comics) and no one really used the power of any of the Infinity Stones to actively fight Thanos. He could have demonstrated it and Thanos (with two) still could have overpowered him. Anyway, that's just a minor thing...there's all sorts of little things we'd rather see.

Judging by what was left of Knowhere in Thanos' reveal it must have been a mean fight.

2 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Things I loved:

• The heroes’ entrances: Cap arriving to save Wanda and Vision; Thor getting to Wakanda (and everyone’s reaction to that); Wanda saving Nat and Okoye; Okoye and Nat saving Wanda.

Even watching it a second time, Cap's arrival was super chill awesome (last time I felt this way was when *comic-book reference/spoiler* Onslaught beat the X-Men into the ground, and as the dust is clearing there are glimpses of Cap's shield, Thor's hammer). 

It held up pretty well on the second viewing. There are flaws, which I'm sure will be well discussed here, but I'm happy to rate it a solid 8/10.

[RumHam]

30 minutes ago, ithanos said:

By the way I think the 'gate keeper' at the Soul Gem place might have been Adam Warlock (or the In-Betweener?), since he mentions he is a former holder of the Gem and is forever burdened by it.    

It was a non Hugo Weaving Red Skull, no? The movie isn't out here yet but that's what all the spoilers say. 

[ithanos]

@RumHam thanks. That makes sense... because he looked just like a hooded skull, and now that I think of it, he was a tinge red,

Guess I need to watch this a third time.

[denstorebog]

I actually think it might have been Hugo Weaving. Certainly sounded like him, and it wouldn't have been much of a hassle to record those lines.

That was actually the one moment in the movie that made me say something out loud in surprise. It was just such an out there decision to have Red Skull show up as a weird hermit figure in the middle of nowhere.

[Mosi Mynn]

Who gave the Red Skull that assignment?  His connection was with the Tesseract, how did he end up as Dementor of the Soul Stone?  Is there someone in charge of the Infinity Stones?

[RumHam]

37 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

I actually think it might have been Hugo Weaving. Certainly sounded like him, and it wouldn't have been much of a hassle to record those lines.

That was actually the one moment in the movie that made me say something out loud in surprise. It was just such an out there decision to have Red Skull show up as a weird hermit figure in the middle of nowhere.

Someone who saw it said that someone else was credited as Red Skull in the credits. But it could be that someone else did the mo-cap and Weaving recorded the lines. 

30 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Who gave the Red Skull that assignment?  His connection was with the Tesseract, how did he end up as Dementor of the Soul Stone?  Is there someone in charge of the Infinity Stones?

These are good questions that hopefully will be addressed in some tie-in media. Maybe a comic? I know they've done a few of those that are technically MCU canon. 

[denstorebog]

31 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Who gave the Red Skull that assignment?  His connection was with the Tesseract, how did he end up as Dementor of the Soul Stone?  Is there someone in charge of the Infinity Stones?

Either it was inspired by the comics, or they just figured "why not cram in another familiar face while we're at it".

[Mosi Mynn]

2 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

Either it was inspired by the comics, or they just figured "why not cram in another familiar face while we're at it".

I thought for a moment they were going to bring all the Marvel villains back (maybe they will!).  Just seems random that it's the Red Skull.  Maybe the Tesseract/Space Stone flung him there.  But why? 

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I thought for a moment they were going to bring all the Marvel villains back (maybe they will!).  Just seems random that it's the Red Skull.  Maybe the Tesseract/Space Stone flung him there.  But why? 

I imagine because they want to bring Red Skull back for future films. The character had potential and was definitely one of the stronger villains. Having him pop up in this context allows an opportunity for returning him.

Just got back from the film and I have to say I really enjoyed it. It felt like a genuine culmination of everything that had come before it and the 6 year build up of Thanos actually led to a strong pay off. The weird thing for me was the constant LOTR vibe I got - which is definitely a compliment because it was still Marvel but with this new epic flavour to it. I guess all the references to Norse mythology helped! Instead of Frodo we had Thanos on his quest and the sacrifices required to achieve it.

Hemsworth/Thor got great treatment and was one of the few shiver inducing moments when he appeared in Wakanda. Hemsworth trying to hold it together while talking to Rocket was one of his stronger moments and more impressive given how he could swing from that to his swaggering self.

The other shiver I got in the film was Parker's death which was the only one that got to me (because all of them with the possible exception of Loki are going to be undone) as Holland perfectly captured the fear of someone not wanting to die - he's a kid not a stoic hero and even though we know Parker will be back it didn't lessen the impact that he sold the fact he thought/knew he was dying (and didn't assume he'd return).

I've no idea how they managed to juggle all the franchises and characters but they made it work almost seamlessly. I think Dr Strange was the toughest character to gel with everyone else. It was also wise to initially pair the GOTG with Thor as their silliness matches. It was a bit more strained when GOTG were paired with Stark and Parker.

I'm guessing Ant Man and the wasp has to be set prior to this film now or it won't make much sense? It also makes sense that Captain Marvel is going to be an origin movie set in the past now. Although the post credit scene would be a bit of a dud if Captain Marvel was one of the 50% of life in the universe that was to die.

I wonder if there was a between scenes moment where Dr Strange discussed the one possibility of winning with Stark? I guess it could be one of those "if he said it wouldn't come to be scenarios" but it's clear that Everything that played out from that point until Strange's death was him maximising the chances of that one win occurring. So I guess Stark is vital to their ultimate victory. I wonder if it has anything to do with him restoring the arc in his chest? Maybe it will allow him to possess the infinity stones in the finale and disappear as some god - a bit like Mr Fantastic did in the comic version.

I think it was a bit cheeky/uneccessary of them to essentially lie about Avengers 4 not being part 2. I feel like they said that merely because there's been a backlash against other films that have played the part 1 of 2 card in the last few years. I guess it technically stands as a film in of itself in the sense Thanos starts off on a quest and completes it. But in terms of the heroes there's no way this is a done-in-one film as we know it has to be resolved.

But I was really impressed and while it's obviously a cash cow it felt like Marvel studios were genuinely wanting to create something epic that only their connected franchises could achieve. The ending in of itself was pretty bold and felt genuine - even though we know it will virtually all be undone.