HBO’s Westworld VI- This Game Is Meant For You...[SPOILERS]

[Cas Stark]

I am going with Ford knew everything going on, include that they had the James Delos project and whatever other BS Charlotte Hale was working on with the DNA.  It's not believable, given how he was presented and how he outfoxed everyone that he would not have been aware of these 'secret' programs and facilities.....so, part of his 'game' I presume/assume is that he's going to thwart Delos in these matters via the host revolution, and maybe via whatever the 'game' is that Ed Harris is playing...

Ed may or may not have known about his daughter in the park, since he's gone all Ahab, he may not have been interested, like he was not interested in Ford's ouster, just wants the white whale, maze, last game....one reason that the trolling he's doing to Harris is so great.

[RumHam]

Those of you re-watching season one, I'm curious is it weird in retrospect that they only ever talk about "the park" and not "the parks?" 

[Fragile Bird]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I am going with Ford knew everything going on, include that they had the James Delos project and whatever other BS Charlotte Hale was working on with the DNA.  It's not believable, given how he was presented and how he outfoxed everyone that he would not have been aware of these 'secret' programs and facilities.....so, part of his 'game' I presume/assume is that he's going to thwart Delos in these matters via the host revolution, and maybe via whatever the 'game' is that Ed Harris is playing...

Ed may or may not have known about his daughter in the park, since he's gone all Ahab, he may not have been interested, like he was not interested in Ford's ouster, just wants the white whale, maze, last game.

Well, the Lazarus Project has been going on since before Delos invested in the park, so it must involve Ford.  Maybe the hosts were always a smokescreen and a money raising face to put in front of the public, while Lazarus was going on. And Arnold destroyed the hosts because he did not want to see people + hosts combined in this way?

Or - wait - the retirement party happens 8 or 10 years after the first William and Logan timeline, because William is married and has a daughter who's 8 or10 years old. Maybe William started the project and thought he was hiding it from Ford?

I'm sure things are going to turn out to be more complicated than we first expected.

[Cas Stark]

21 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Well, the Lazarus Project has been going on since before Delos invested in the park, so it must involve Ford.  Maybe the hosts were always a smokescreen and a money raising face to put in front of the public, while Lazarus was going on. And Arnold destroyed the hosts because he did not want to see people + hosts combined in this way?

Or - wait - the retirement party happens 8 or 10 years after the first William and Logan timeline, because William is married and has a daughter who's 8 or10 years old. Maybe William started the project and thought he was hiding it from Ford?

I'm sure things are going to turn out to be more complicated than we first expected.

This is my guess.  But, there is nothing called the Lazarus Project, right?  This was Ford riffing on humanity having reached it's potential last season, raising Lazarus from the dead as a turn of phrase, not a project....or did they call James Delos the Lazarus Project? 

I think Arnold destroyed the hosts for the reasons we've seen, he believed them capable of consciousness and thus it was wrong to maintain them in servitude and abuse.  

From the retirement convo it sounds like the immortality plan was in the works for some time already, but not ready...and time is running out.  

 

[williamjm]

6 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Examples:  The Constant is my favorite Lost episode, and while I love Desmond other than that barely any character plays a major role

Speaking of Desmond and Lost, the opening with James Delos did remind me a bit of Desmond's introduction at the beginning of season 2's first episode - the montage soundtracked by 60s music, ending in the revelation that he's not where he initially appeared to be.

6 hours ago, Mexal said:

Elsie was never killed in S1, just choked out. The human deaths are all still dead and the host deaths... well they're hosts.

I seem to remember even from her first disappearance most of us were assuming that she wasn't really dead.

 

[Astromech]

6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I am going with Ford knew everything going on, include that they had the James Delos project and whatever other BS Charlotte Hale was working on with the DNA.  It's not believable, given how he was presented and how he outfoxed everyone that he would not have been aware of these 'secret' programs and facilities.....so, part of his 'game' I presume/assume is that he's going to thwart Delos in these matters via the host revolution, and maybe via whatever the 'game' is that Ed Harris is playing...

Ed may or may not have known about his daughter in the park, since he's gone all Ahab, he may not have been interested, like he was not interested in Ford's ouster, just wants the white whale, maze, last game....one reason that the trolling he's doing to Harris is so great.

What if William is actually a host and Ford has been in control of him and Delos Corp this whole time?

[Cas Stark]

54 minutes ago, Astromech said:

What if William is actually a host and Ford has been in control of him and Delos Corp this whole time?

That would suck as a story. 

[dbunting]

10 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Ah, not being clear again. :p

I don't think William poisoned him, but if the whiskey had an effect on Delos why would the technicians let him give it to him? Surely someone, anyone, running the project would go to him and say, "sir, we noticed that when you allow him alcohol it affects his functions negatively." Although since the hosts drink all the time without the alcohol affecting them in the way Delos is affected, I don't see it. Nor do I see poison affecting him any way.

The last technician who advised Delos he had a visitor is lying dead in the rom. Bernard goes and looks at his body. Why the hell would anyone be so stupid and go into a room with a malfunctioning host? Oh well, maybe he ran into the room trying to hide from the drones?

I didn't say he poisoned him every time, only the last time when it looked like the "lazarus" project worked. The tech said it had been like 35 days. All the previous scenes were 7(?) days or less and showed his hand shaking before William ever got into the room. So I assume the techs told William he is malfunctioning so William comes and says his goodbye. But the last scene is different. No shakes until after they talk and he drinks. Again, I am not married to this as being a fact, its just that while watching it my gut told me something was wrong.

As to what poison could affect a robot, well since we are in a make believe world where hosts are so real, then a make believe nano tech poison?

[Fragile Bird]

9 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

This is my guess.  But, there is nothing called the Lazarus Project, right?  This was Ford riffing on humanity having reached it's potential last season, raising Lazarus from the dead as a turn of phrase, not a project....or did they call James Delos the Lazarus Project? 

I think Arnold destroyed the hosts for the reasons we've seen, he believed them capable of consciousness and thus it was wrong to maintain them in servitude and abuse.  

From the retirement convo it sounds like the immortality plan was in the works for some time already, but not ready...and time is running out.  

 

I'm calling it the Lazarus Project. I'm pretty sure it was more than a turn of phrase, since he said diseases had been cured, that even the weakest can be kept alive, and the next step was bringing Lazarus out of the cave. That sounded to me like it wasn't just an idea but something ongoing, and the conversation with Bernard happened in the 30-years-later timeline, so 20 years or more after Delos was first being resurrected.

[DMC]

10 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

If you want something to chew on, the riddle of the sphinx was what walks on four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs at night. The answer, of course. is man, crawling as a babe, walking on two legs as an adult and with a cane as a senior.

So...did that refer to Delos? To the hosts, who will be crippled some how as time passes? To William? Is William Oedipus, exploring the world and being faced with riddles?

 (I don't think he's going to sleep with his mom at this point.)

I think the episode nod is crystal clear - immortality is fool's gold.  Perhaps, even, for hosts.

10 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

And Emily. She appears to be an only child, presumably she has been brought into the family business? William surely would have known she was in the park, yet didn't mention her. But maybe thinking she was in the park and had possibly been killed led him to be a 'white hat' and save Lawrence's village.

Meh, I think her appearance was unexpected to Ed Harris'-William.  Albeit that doesn't mean he's too surprised she's there - one would assume she'd be quite adept at the park considering it's been his obsession since she was born.

10 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I am going with Ford knew everything going on, include that they had the James Delos project and whatever other BS Charlotte Hale was working on with the DNA.  It's not believable, given how he was presented and how he outfoxed everyone that he would not have been aware of these 'secret' programs and facilities.....so, part of his 'game' I presume/assume is that he's going to thwart Delos in these matters via the host revolution, and maybe via whatever the 'game' is that Ed Harris is playing...

Ed may or may not have known about his daughter in the park, since he's gone all Ahab, he may not have been interested, like he was not interested in Ford's ouster, just wants the white whale, maze, last game....one reason that the trolling he's doing to Harris is so great.

Yup.  Entirely agreed.  All of it.

10 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Maybe William started the project and thought he was hiding it from Ford?

I think William thought he was keeping the project from Ford, but that was just foolish on his part.

10 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

But, there is nothing called the Lazarus Project, right?

Right, or at least that's my understanding.  I mean, if we're gonna riff off Ford's quotes, we should start with "Do you know what happened to the Neanderthals?  We ate them."

6 hours ago, williamjm said:

Speaking of Desmond and Lost, the opening with James Delos did remind me a bit of Desmond's introduction at the beginning of season 2's first episode - the montage soundtracked by 60s music, ending in the revelation that he's not where he initially appeared to be.

Yes.  It was hard not to notice for any Lost fan.  Joy (in her very impressive directorial debut) tried to clarify it wasn't intentional, but damn man..

2 hours ago, dbunting said:

But the last scene is different. No shakes until after they talk and he drinks. Again, I am not married to this as being a fact, its just that while watching it my gut told me something was wrong.

This isn't something I'll dismiss out of hand, I just don't like it.  Because what did you see in that last scene?  I saw William provoking robot-Delos over and over again.  He screams for his wife - no she killed herself.  He screams for his son - no he OD'ed.  It was William torturing Jim Delos because the former is now the sadistic asshole we're all led to assume the former was as well.  The whiskey is inconsequential (or at least let's say symbolic).

20 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

nd the conversation with Bernard happened in the 30-years-later timeline, so 20 years or more after Delos was first being resurrected.

Please explain!

[Fragile Bird]

5 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Please explain!

All of Episode 1 Season 1, takes place in the 30-years-later timeline, except, we think, the opening conversation with Dolores, which we eventually decided is with Arnold.

Ford's Lazarus and the cave talk with Bernard therefore happens at a time when the Lazarus Project (and I am going to call it this because it is so descriptive ) has been going on for at least 20 years. I believe that because of the discussion at the retirement party. Emily is about 8 or 10, and Delos thinks it will be too late for him. We know the Arnold-created massacre happened 30 years ago, and from the veiled conversation with William, the Project has been going on for some time when the discussion is being held at the party. So logically, for at least 20 years, if Delos was at death's door at the retirement party. He's coughing, William is trying to be reassuring. Even if he died a year later or more, William is holding out promising news to him at the party, so the project is up and running.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

All of Episode 1 Season 1, takes place in the 30-years-later timeline, except, we think, the opening conversation with Dolores, which we eventually decided is with Arnold.

 

12 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

We know the Arnold-created massacre happened 30 years ago, and from the veiled conversation with William, the Project has been going on for some time when the discussion is being held at the party. So logically, for at least 20 years, if Delos was at death's door at the retirement party. He's coughing, William is trying to be reassuring. Even if he died a year later or more, William is holding out promising news to him at the party, so the project is up and running.

Ahh.  Well, my take on all that is always gonna be the most simple explanation (or Occam's Razor, if you prefer, but I loathe crediting him just as much as Machiavelli - these are all intuitive conclusions).  I mean, yeah, Daddy (Jim Delos) was clearly dying at his retirement party, and we just saw William's attempt to "revive" him, such as it was.  Why did William fail?  Cuz he didn't have Ford.  Ford has already demonstrated a way to, at least, massage this process with Bernard.  I think it'd be hard to assume he has not advanced beyond such - which consequently is what William was, and the Delos company still is, seeking. 

How's it going on the rewatch?  Ford and Bernard's last conversation in the Season 1 finale ends with Ford saying (paraphrase) "No, Bernard.  Arnold didn't know how to save you.  But I do."  He's a fuckface, but I believe him there.  And I believe that's what he's doing and determined to do.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

This isn't something I'll dismiss out of hand, I just don't like it.  Because what did you see in that last scene?  I saw William provoking robot-Delos over and over again.  He screams for his wife - no she killed herself.  He screams for his son - no he OD'ed.  It was William torturing Jim Delos because the former is now the sadistic asshole we're all led to assume the former was as well.  The whiskey is inconsequential (or at least let's say symbolic).

 

Yep, the mind torture is why I won't hold too tightly to the poison. That and William drank some also (could easily be something that only affects hosts), I think to celebrate seeing Delos' meltdown? He also said something about how the mind rejects reality.

Personally I hope they stop this whole timeline hopping real soon. This is the kind of thing that can ruin a show because you never know what to trust. A casual viewer will end up giving up on the show because it's tough to decipher. Once the season is over it would be nice to have a re cut / edit to show the time lines in order.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Personally I hope they stop this whole timeline hopping real soon. This is the kind of thing that can ruin a show because you never know what to trust. A casual viewer will end up giving up on the show because it's tough to decipher. Once the season is over it would be nice to have a re cut / edit to show the time lines in order.

I think it's fair to say Joy and Nolan have been much more straightforward in this second season, at least thus far - just as it's fair to say they went way too the other way in the first season.  Bernard is the remaining mystery, but I won't begrudge them one mystery.. 

[HexMachina]

On 5/15/2018 at 9:26 AM, dbunting said:

If you remember from the previously on, Ford is making his speach about Lazarus rising from the grave...a clear hint at that

As to the second part, Im gonna stick with my gut and say that William "poisoned" him in some way with the whiskey. I mean what are the odds of him getting the shakes only directly after he drinks it? Of course I guess we could also assume that meeting someone from his past and realizing that all of his loved ones are gone could also cause the mental issue. I prefer the hidden Targaryen whiskey plot!

I think William just deliberately provoked Delos, saying things he knew would get extreme emotional responses knowing that the ‘host’ was incapable of handling all of these at once and would inevitably glitch. Because Delos was a pretty vile person and William wants him and his ego to suffer, even if it is only in a host body.

loved the episode, my favourite of the season so far (but not the show as a whole). Surprised I liked it so uch without Maeve and Delores...but my girl Elsie is back, woohoo! Sadly we didn’t see her in present timeline yet though, so...worrying.

Congrats to hose who correctly guessed Emily was William’s daughter. I mean it was obvious throughout this episode but 5ose who guessed before hand well done. Clearly I still suck at this theorising thing :p 

a little pissed that there was no Maeve given how they ended the last episode, but I’ll forgive that

[Theda Baratheon]

Shit you guys were right about William, and his daughter...

What day does it air because I keep catching this show late when all the discussion has been had so I'm feeling out of the loop and probably not engaging with it as much as I did with season one when I seemed to be quite on the ball. 

[Cas Stark]

4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I think William just deliberately provoked Delos, saying things he knew would get extreme emotional responses knowing that the ‘host’ was incapable of handling all of these at once and would inevitably glitch. Because Delos was a pretty vile person and William wants him and his ego to suffer, even if it is only in a host body.

loved the episode, my favourite of the season so far (but not the show as a whole). Surprised I liked it so uch without Maeve and Delores...but my girl Elsie is back, woohoo! Sadly we didn’t see her in present timeline yet though, so...worrying.

Congrats to hose who correctly guessed Emily was William’s daughter. I mean it was obvious throughout this episode but 5ose who guessed before hand well done. Clearly I still suck at this theorising thing :p 

a little pissed that there was no Maeve given how they ended the last episode, but I’ll forgive that

Yes.  The question is, was he doing it all along...did he ever intend to cede back power to his father in law in the first place...I thought he looked smug and superior in all three of those segments, not just the last one.   James was definitely an asshole, but doesn't seem to compare to the asshole that William became.

[Mark Antony]

17 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Shit you guys were right about William, and his daughter...

What day does it air because I keep catching this show late when all the discussion has been had so I'm feeling out of the loop and probably not engaging with it as much as I did with season one when I seemed to be quite on the ball. 

In the US the show airs Sunday nights. 

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

In the US the show airs Sunday nights. 

Ah, okay. Thank you. I will try to catch it on monday mornings then I suppose. 

[Theda Baratheon]

On 5/15/2018 at 7:06 AM, Nictarion said:

James Delos had good taste in music. 

Right!?! Roxy Music and Rolling Stones? I was fucking LOVING those music scenes! In fact, it's one of my fave episodes of the whole show purely for James Delos' scenes. Just TV excellence.