Fat Walda's Future

[Kandrax]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

House Bolton

They didn't do anything against Starks for centuries, so there was no reason to ask for their extermination.

[Nowy Tends]

12 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes, @UnFit Finlay, @Corvo the Crow

Yes, the man who would've gave his nephew Edric Storm to the flames, would not have a problem to annihilate the Targ or Bolton little ones.  

You're mixing everything. The situations are completely different. Stannis thinks, under Melisandre's influence, that he could gain something HUGE from the burning of Edric, when he has absolutely nothing to gain by killing Walda and her baby, that would be a motiveless act with counter-productive effects, definitely not Stannis style.

[The Sunland Lord]

6 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

You're mixing everything. The situations are completely different. Stannis thinks, under Melisandre's influence, that he could gain something HUGE from the burning of Edric, when he has absolutely nothing to gain by killing Walda and her baby, that would be a motiveless act with counter-productive effects, definitely not Stannis style.

So he would let Walda and her baby live and risk that one day they seek for revenge? I don't think so. 

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

So he would let Walda and her baby live and risk that one day they seek for revenge? I don't think so. 

As @The Weirwoods Eyes suggested:

Walda I doubt he would execute women are not executed in these situations. They are valuable pawns.  She can be ransomed, or she can be remarried to a loyal banner man. Her child when it is born can be either married to someone to legitimise the taking of the dreadfort into another houses hands. Or can be raised to become Lord Bolton and keep the house going; which is something most westerosi are invested in.

As for a revenge, Walda would need support, when her family is defeated. Stannis will probably leave House Frey reduced to its simplest expression…

 

[UnFit Finlay]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes, @UnFit Finlay, @Corvo the Crow

Yes, the man who would've gave his nephew Edric Storm to the flames, would not have a problem to annihilate the Targ or Bolton little ones.  

Nope.

The man who briefly considered sacrificing his nephew, after much protest, and when it appeared to be his only hope to save the realm would absolutely have a problem with killing children just for the sake of it.

The guy gelds his own men for rape and even mutilated the man who saved his life for his prior crimes. That's not a man who is going to execute innocent kids just because someone asked him to. 

Aside from that Robb was just as much a traitor to Stannis as Roose is. Do you think he's going to wipe out the Starks too? Or do you seriously imagine that Stannis Barathon is going to commit an atrocity so the Northerners will like him?

2 hours ago, Kandrax said:

They didn't do anything against Starks for centuries, so there was no reason to ask for their extermination.

That's what I'm saying. If the Northerners had the attitude that "All Traitors must be killed. Including the innocent children" then House Bolton wouldn't have been around even for Aegon's Landing.

Is it even really that common in Westeros anyway? I'd imagine it isn't or Tywin doing it to the Reynes and the Tarbecks wouldn't have been such a big deal.

[The Sunland Lord]

4 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Nope.

The man who briefly considered sacrificing his nephew, after much protest, and when it appeared to be his only hope to save the realm would absolutely have a problem with killing children just for the sake of it.

It's not for the sake of it. It's the child which one day might come after him. And Edric Storm escaped. It's not as if Stannis changed his mind, so he thought of it briefly.

4 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

The guy gelds his own men for rape and even mutilated the man who saved his life for his prior crimes. That's not a man who is going to execute innocent kids just because someone asked him to. 

So what? Randyll Tarly punishes criminals too, but was ready to murder his own son. 

4 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Aside from that Robb was just as much a traitor to Stannis as Roose is. Do you think he's going to wipe out the Starks too? Or do you seriously imagine that Stannis Barathon is going to commit an atrocity so the Northerners will like him?

No, because he must be a pragmatic man now. Avenging Robb and all the murdered people at the RW is all he had to offer to northern men who went to fight for his cause. And besides, why would he want to murder Robb's relatives? He never fought against them, no matter what he thought of him.

But he is fighting the Boltons to wipe them out, not to spare them, on the other hand.

I can see Stannis executing Walda and her kid, yes.

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She wiggles and squeals in bed... that's gotta be worth something? 

Being fun to have sex with is something Roose enjoys.  That's why he screws the lowborn women in his realm 

[Nowy Tends]

9 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's not for the sake of it. It's the child which one day might come after him.

And how would the child be able to do that? The Boltons and the Frey were hated by everybody, who's going to help the last Bolton/Frey by-product to take revenge against Stannis who's now one of the most powerful player in Westeros – if not the King?

[The Sunland Lord]

35 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

And how would the child be able to do that? The Boltons and the Frey were hated by everybody, who's going to help the last Bolton/Frey by-product to take revenge against Stannis who's now one of the most powerful player in Westeros – if not the King?

Because Lords/Kings are in general assholes who wouldn't take chances. Why did Robert want the Targs eliminated? To secure his claim, sure, but also was scared of vengeance. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

4 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes, @UnFit Finlay, @Corvo the Crow

Yes, the man who would've gave his nephew Edric Storm to the flames, would not have a problem to annihilate the Targ or Bolton little ones.  

I don't think you understand the character or the world in which the story is set. 

Stannis was willing to sacrifice his nephew only because of his Kings Blood. Blood Walda and her baby do not posses. The sacrifice of Edric Storm was going to have a specific purpose; Mellisandre thinks his sacrifice would wake dragons from stone.  Stannis is conflicted and it is Davos that spirits the boy away afraid his master will concede to Mellisandre and have him burnt. 

The culture of the country as a whole also needs to be taken into account when assessing what Stannis might do. And as I pointed out women are a commodity in Westeros, they are valuable pawns in the game of thrones. You do not just go around executing them willy nilly. Likewise killing children is not common, that is why Tywins actions in ordering Elia's children killed are seen as so abhorrent.

Stannis needs to win the Northerners round to his cause, he's got to persuade them to throw their lot in with him and accept him as their king. He isn't likely to achieve that by mindlessly killing an innocent woman and her unborn/new born child. Frey or not she had nothing to do with the red wedding and it is generally accepted in westeros that women do not take an active part in the actions of their lords, fathers, brothers etc.That they are passive. 

That is why Joffrey is so clearly unhinged when he has Sansa beaten for her brothers actions. It is portrayed as spiteful and stupid which reflects the opinion the author wishes us to craft of Joffrey. Stannis is not a character who is portrayed in that manner. Later on in the story we see him beginning to resist the urging of his men to burn people, he only ever agreed to it as he believed Mel when she told him it served a distinct purpose and he could see a case for the benefit outweighing the act. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

As @The Weirwoods Eyes suggested:

Walda I doubt he would execute women are not executed in these situations. They are valuable pawns.  She can be ransomed, or she can be remarried to a loyal banner man. Her child when it is born can be either married to someone to legitimise the taking of the dreadfort into another houses hands. Or can be raised to become Lord Bolton and keep the house going; which is something most westerosi are invested in.

As for a revenge, Walda would need support, when her family is defeated. Stannis will probably leave House Frey reduced to its simplest expression…

 

Thank you. 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

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Stannis was willing to sacrifice his nephew only because of his Kings Blood. Blood Walda and her baby do not posses. The sacrifice of Edric Storm was going to have a specific purpose; Mellisandre thinks his sacrifice would wake dragons from stone.  Stannis is conflicted and it is Davos that spirits the boy away afraid his master will concede to Mellisandre and have him burnt. 

So Fat Walda's kid not having king's blood will save her/him? 

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The culture of the country as a whole also needs to be taken into account when assessing what Stannis might do. And as I pointed out women are a commodity in Westeros, they are valuable pawns in the game of thrones. You do not just go around executing them willy nilly.

I think he would spare her too, but if she is without a baby. Those are different circumstances. 

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Stannis needs to win the Northerners round to his cause, he's got to persuade them to throw their lot in with him and accept him as their king. He isn't likely to achieve that by mindlessly killing an innocent woman and her unborn/new born child. Frey or not she had nothing to do with the red wedding and it is generally accepted in westeros that women do not take an active part in the actions of their lords, fathers, brothers etc.That they are passive. 

Almost everyone up there in the North will accept that the turncloak's blood needs to be erased from the planet. 

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That is why Joffrey is so clearly unhinged when he has Sansa beaten for her brothers actions. It is portrayed as spiteful and stupid which reflects the opinion the author wishes us to craft of Joffrey. 

Joffrey ordering the KG to beat Sansa is supposed to make people not like him period. Not that he does it for this or that reason.

[UnFit Finlay]

45 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's not for the sake of it. It's the child which one day might come after him. And Edric Storm escaped. It's not as if Stannis changed his mind, so he thought of it briefly.

Is there any indication in the series that Stannis is the type of guy to be scared of an infant?

And Stannis absolutely did change his mind. He was originally completely against the idea. It was only when he was at his absolute lowest point, when it seemed like the only option left to him that he began to consider it.

That hardly means that he'll execute any kid, out of hand, just because someone asks him to.

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So what? Randyll Tarly punishes criminals too, but was ready to murder his own son.

Randyll isn't Stannis.

Case in point. Randyll is disgusted with Brienne, who is innocent. Stannis, meanwhile, continues to protect Asha, despite her being an enemy combatant, and despite pressure from his men to execute her.

Actually here's a better example - Randyll quickly attacked House Florent when they jumped to Stannis after Renly's death. Stannis, on the other hand, refused to attack Claw Isle when Lord Celtigar bent the knee to Joffrey, because he considered it "evil".

In fact it was Davos objection to that plan that convinced Stannis to make him Hand of the King. Again, despite the pressure from pretty much everyone else. Even Davos himself objected to that decision. Stannis does what Stannis does though.

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No, because he must be a pragmatic man now. Avenging Robb and all the murdered people at the RW is all he had to offer to northern men who went to fight for his cause. And besides, why would he want to murder Robb's relatives? He never fought against them, no matter what he thought of him.

Murdering women and children isn't vengeance.

The Northmen aren't fighting for Stannis' cause either. He's fighting for theirs. He and his men gave up their lands in the South to protect the Wall. He restored the Glovers to Deepwood Motte, despite pressure from his own men, and is now fighting to free Winterfell from the Boltons. If he manages to defeat the Boltons and restore the Starks, do you seriously think the Northerners are going to go "Not enough. Kill the kids too!"?

As for why he'd want to murder Robb's relatives. He wouldn't. That's my point. He's not the kind of guy to punish innocent people for the crimes of others, which is what are you are suggesting. He considered Robb a traitor but he's fighting for his people, because it's the right thing to do. He's not going to murder a baby just because of who it's father is.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Is it even really that common in Westeros anyway? I'd imagine it isn't or Tywin doing it to the Reynes and the Tarbecks wouldn't have been such a big deal.

No it isn't at all common, it is incredibly uncommon. Tywin is infamous because what he did was an atrocity the likes of which had not been seen  for hundreds of years if at all. Likewise his ordering Aegon & Rhaenys killed was an abhorrent act which no body expected. Not even his own son Jaime who tries to excuse himself of their blood being on his hands by saying that no one could have guessed Tywin would do such a thing. 

ASOS Jaime VI; his dream of Rhaegar.

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"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now.

And even Tywin didn't actually order Elia to be killed. 

ASOS Tyrion VI; speaking with his father

Quote

"You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

Tywin is talking about the killing of Rhaegars children here as necessary. They are the direct descendants of the primary line. And Dorne might have used them to rise against the IT. Elia alone is harmless she could have just been sent home. Like I explained earlier Viserys & Dany needn't have been killed as Viserys has no direct relatives who could be willing to fight for him. Kept out of harms way and raised by loyalists to Robert he would be unlikely to ever rise up against him, especially once his sister is married to Roberts son, and his mother is an indirect hostage to his good behaviour. But Aegon & Rhaenys might have had their Dornish families backing so had to go.  I'd argue Rhaenys might have been wed to a son of Roberts but at the very start of his dynasty she is risky. Dorne might seek to crown her before a son is born to Robert and she remains a risk up until she herself births an heir for Roberts heir. So that is a lot of years before she becomes tied into the Baratheon crown by blood. Dany does not pose the same risk because she has no non Targ direct relatives. 

Roberts best move with Elia would have been to wed her to Renly, it is unimportant that she can no longer bear children as he and Stannis can fill the Baratheon cradles. And she is not at risk from an unplanned pregnancy as Renly was still a kid at this point so no risk for the foreseeable future but it ties her legally to the new regime. Robert may have suspected Renly is gay and so perceived there would be no ongoing problems either. 

Tywin goes on to admit that Greggor only killed her because he didn't tell him not to. ie: for his own enjoyment. 

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"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

Even Tywin himself was disgusted by his men's actions. and admits he wasn't thinking clearly when he gave them the orders. He was worrying about Jaime. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

So Fat Walda's kid not having king's blood will save her/him? 

I think he would spare her too, but if she is without a baby. Those are different circumstances. 

Almost everyone up there in the North will accept that the turncloak's blood needs to be erased from the planet. 

Joffrey ordering the KG to beat Sansa is supposed to make people not like him period. Not that he does it for this or that reason.

Again you are failing to understand the politics of the situation. 

Walda has no special blood so her death can not be used in a pseudo religious magical ceremony in the way Mellisandre was suggesting for Edric Storm.  What will save her is the fact that killing her is not in line with normal weserosi practice and serves no purpose. 

She is pregnant we know that. Her baby poses no threat though to Stannis's bid for the North so there is no reason to kill it. If it is female the usual method can be employed of wedding her to a loyal bannermans son and giving them the dreadfort; continuing the Bolton line as is usual in Westeros. If a son just raise him to be loyal and ditto. There isn't a precedent for murdering infants as standard practice what Tywin did was seen as a huge crime. Even he regrets how it was done. Even though he saw it as necessary. 

You're third point is entirely your own opinion and has no basis in the text. 

You're again missing the point. The actions of Joffrey; punishing an innocent woman for her relatives crimes show him as cruel.

Stannis is not portrayed as a cruel man but rather a just man. He is unlikely to employ the same logic as Joffrey and punish Walda for her relatives crimes. 

[Nowy Tends]

56 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Because Lords/Kings are in general assholes who wouldn't take chances. Why did Robert want the Targs eliminated? To secure his claim, sure, but also was scared of vengeance. 

These are gross assertions.

1/ is not true. ASOIAF depicts many "good" Lords

2/ You oversimplify the characters. Robert and Stannis are clearly depicted as two completely different persons.

[The Sunland Lord]

13 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

These are gross assertions.

1/ is not true. ASOIAF depicts many "good" Lords

2/ You oversimplify the characters. Robert and Stannis are clearly depicted as two completely different persons.

Gross? Is anything I said about Robert not true? Yes there are many relatively "good" nobles, and maybe Stannis is among them, but he is not a boy scout. 

[UnFit Finlay]

3 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Gross? Is anything I said about Robert not true? Yes there are many relatively "good" nobles, and maybe Stannis is among them, but he is not a boy scout. 

Is anyone suggesting that he is?

Stannis not being a boy scout doesn't make him a monster and he has shown numerous times that he will not compromise his values to please others, which is essentially what you are arguing.

[The Sunland Lord]

 

37 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Walda has no special blood so her death can not be used in a pseudo religious magical ceremony in the way Mellisandre was suggesting for Edric Storm.  What will save her is the fact that killing her is not in line with normal weserosi practice and serves no purpose. 

So Stannis would kill her and her baby only if they had the king's blood? No other context can exist?

37 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

She is pregnant we know that. Her baby poses no threat though to Stannis's bid for the North so there is no reason to kill it. If it is female the usual method can be employed of wedding her to a loyal bannermans son and giving them the dreadfort; continuing the Bolton line as is usual in Westeros. If a son just raise him to be loyal and ditto. There isn't a precedent for murdering infants as standard practice what Tywin did was seen as a huge crime. Even he regrets how it was done. Even though he saw it as necessary. 

Do we know that she is pregnant? Why are you so sure that northerners will want the Bolton name to live on?

37 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You're third point is entirely your own opinion and has no basis in the text. 

We are allowed to it, aren't we? Otherwise we'd be only communicating with book quotes, which is fanatical. By the way, your notion that the northern peoples would want the Bolton name to live on also has no basis. I'm not stating it as something bad, just saying it has no basis.

37 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You're again missing the point. The actions of Joffrey; punishing an innocent woman for her relatives crimes show him as cruel.

Stannis is not portrayed as a cruel man but rather a just man. He is unlikely to employ the same logic as Joffrey and punish Walda for her relatives crimes. 

I'm not missing any point, Joffrey ordering the Kingsguard to beat Sansa makes him a baddy, not the reason for it. He likely just wanted to beat her for the sake for it, his "punishing" was a pretext. 

53 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Is there any indication in the series that Stannis is the type of guy to be scared of an infant?

If he kills this infant's father, and lets it live, he has a reason to be afraid.

53 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

That hardly means that he'll execute any kid, out of hand, just because someone asks him to.

Just because Melisandre asked him to, he would've roasted Edric. You may ignore that as much as you like.

53 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Randyll isn't Stannis.

Case in point. Randyll is disgusted with Brienne, who is innocent. Stannis, meanwhile, continues to protect Asha, despite her being an enemy combatant, and despite pressure from his men to execute her.

Actually here's a better example - Randyll quickly attacked House Florent when they jumped to Stannis after Renly's death. Stannis, on the other hand, refused to attack Claw Isle when Lord Celtigar bent the knee to Joffrey, because he considered it "evil".

Stannis isn't Randyll, but you wrote that punishing criminals somehow made Stannis a man who would not kill kids. I mentioned Randyll just as a comparison, but every noble punishes the criminals in their little realms, yet it doesn't stop them to commit crimes themselves. 

53 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Murdering women and children isn't vengeance.

I agree.

53 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

The Northmen aren't fighting for Stannis' cause either. He's fighting for theirs. He and his men gave up their lands in the South to protect the Wall. He restored the Glovers to Deepwood Motte, despite pressure from his own men, and is now fighting to free Winterfell from the Boltons. If he manages to defeat the Boltons and restore the Starks, do you seriously think the Northerners are going to go "Not enough. Kill the kids too!"?

He fights for their cause, yes, but he is asking for something in return, isn't he? 

53 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

As for why he'd want to murder Robb's relatives. He wouldn't. That's my point. He's not the kind of guy to punish innocent people for the crimes of others, which is what are you are suggesting. He considered Robb a traitor but he's fighting for his people, because it's the right thing to do. He's not going to murder a baby just because of who it's father is.

He wouldn't be punishing Walda and her baby, but rather eliminating the Bolton line. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

No we don't know, Tywin ordered the killings of Aegon & Rhaenys. Robert may or may not have ordered Stannis to kill Viserys, Rhaella & Dany too but we don't actually know. If he was politically intelligent he would have exiled Viserys with a guard and supported him to live in Essos, married Rhaella to Tywin, &  Betrothed Dany to his own first born son.  That way he shows he is a merciful man, as the killings of Elia and her children were widely seen as abhorrent, this way he washes those deaths off his hands by showing mercy to Rhaella & her children. He has Rhaella under his thumb as she is wedded to his own Good father, he can keep a close eye on Viserys, and influence how he grows up; who he becomes. And has Dany as a tool to legitimise his own line further and prevent Viserys from rebelling as an adult. He'd be forced to make an enemy of his sister and mother if he did make a claim on the IT. And might even be forced into being a Kinslayer is Dany had produced a baby by her Baratheon husband at any stage.

If Rhaella had been labouring without a battle going on she may well have lived. We don't know what killed her or how her labour might have gone had she not been in such a stressful situation. And besides which when Robert gave whatever instructions he did to Stannis pre attacking DS he would have been assuming her survival and whilst he didn't know the sex of her baby the possibility of a very useful female baby can't have escaped any intelligent advisers who he had. Not to mention Tywin's personal battle with Aerys' I can't help but see him relishing the idea of taking Rhaella to wife as vengeance for all the slights and possibly Joanna's infidelity with Aerys. 

Had a son been born he too could simply be exiled with a team of westerosi's to raise him and Viserys to accept their fate and Rhaella is a hostage in all but name who may then go on to birth a child by Tywin to be tied to the Baratheon claim via marriage to Roberts & Cersei's sons. We know avuncular marriage is acceptable in world because we see the Starks did it. And Asha thinks her Uncle is suggesting it, as well as Alys Karstark being almost made to marry her uncle. So a half aunt to a half nephew with Targaryen blood on both sides should not be problematic. 

Robert would be an idiot to simply order their killings. And whilst he was an idiot, we know his advisers were not. 

I don't think sending them abroad would have been wise. He could have had Stannis, Eddard, or Jon Arryn foster them. Although it might have been best to foster them himself. They were his first cousins once removed.