Fat Walda's Future

[UnFit Finlay]

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

If he kills this infant's father, and lets it live, he has a reason to be afraid.

Not the point. There is no evidence that Stannis is afraid of anyone's unborn children. If there was then why hasn't he wiped out the Houses of anyone he's ever crossed? You know, in case their children come for revenge? 

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Just because Melisandre asked him to, he would've roasted Edric. You may ignore that as much as you like.

 

Well that's just blatantly false.

Melisandre and Selyse were begging him burn Edric for ages and he rebuffed them every single time. It was, as I've said, only when all hope looked lost and it appeared to be the only way to save the Realm that he even considered it. At which point Davos removed the option before Stannis could even make the decision. This was blatant treason on Davos part, yet Stannis hasn't punished him for it. Because he realises that it was the right thing to do. 

It's an entirely different scenario to what you're proposing - That he's a coward and monster who'll kill infants for no real benefit - You may ignore that as much as you like.

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Stannis isn't Randyll, but you wrote that punishing criminals somehow made Stannis a man who would not kill kids. I mentioned Randyll just as a comparison, but every noble punishes the criminals in their little realms, yet it doesn't stop them to commit crimes themselves. 

Actually I didn't and I'd thank you not to twist my words. Thanks.

I used examples of Stannis' extreme views on justice as evidence that he wouldn't murder a baby that is innocent of any crime. Has Randyll ever mutilated a man who saved his life? Would Randyll ever Knight someone as lowborn as a smuggler? Or spare someone like Asha Greyjoy? Christ, Randyll disinherited his son because he was fat and liked to read, while Stannis fully intends for Shireen to take the Throne after him.

Your point about every noble punishing criminals in their realm is irrelevant as well. The point is that Stannis has gelded his own men at a time of war. Those men have given up everything to fight for his cause and he had them gelded for crimes against the enemy. Because it was the right thing to do. That is not something that every Noble does. Case in point, Tywin Lannister. He knew full well what the Mountain did and, yet, I seem to have missed any reference to him being gelded? In fact he kept him (and the Brave Companions) around specifically to rape and murder innocent people when required.

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He fights for their cause, yes, but he is asking for something in return, isn't he? 

 

Is he?

So far as I've seen all the Northern Houses have sworn themselves to him willingly. He hasn't said "I'll get rid of the Boltons and the Iron Born if you swear fealty to me". He's said "I'll get rid of the Boltons. Will you help me?"

He certainly returned Deepwood Motte without any promises of fealty from it's Lord because no one knows where Galbert is.

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He wouldn't be punishing Walda and her baby, but rather eliminating the Bolton line. 

 

For absolutely no reason. As @The Weirwoods Eyes said in her excellent post earlier. Exterminating an entire House, children and all, is something that rarely happens in Westeros. In fact I can only think of two times that it's happened in recent memory - Tywin wiping out the Reynes and Tarbecks and Aerys exterminating almost all of House Hollard. I think we can all agree that Stannis isn't the Mad King.

[The Sunland Lord]

6 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Well that's just blatantly false.

Then why did Davos had to save Edric? Because it's blatantly false? 

6 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Actually I didn't and I'd thank you not to twist my words. Thanks.

How did I twist your words? You said that Stannis punishing criminals makes him just. That's all right, but it doesn't mean he would spare Walda's child.

6 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Your point about every noble punishing criminals in their realm is irrelevant as well. The point is that Stannis has gelded his own men at a time of war. Those men have given up everything to fight for his cause and he had them gelded for crimes against the enemy. Because it was the right thing to do. That is not something that every Noble does. Case in point, Tywin Lannister. He knew full well what the Mountain did and, yet, I seem to have missed any reference to him being gelded? In fact he kept him (and the Brave Companions) around specifically to rape and murder innocent people when required.

Did I say Tywin is a just man? Or compare him to Stannis in any way? 

6 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Is he?

Yes. It's normal that he would. Everyone asks for something in return. He saves the realm and in return he will be called a king. 

6 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

For absolutely no reason. As @The Weirwoods Eyes said in her excellent post earlier. Exterminating an entire House, children and all, is something that rarely happens in Westeros. In fact I can only think of two times that it's happened in recent memory - Tywin wiping out the Reynes and Tarbecks and Aerys exterminating almost all of House Hollard. I think we can all agree that Stannis isn't the Mad King.

It happens. Bolton will most likely be in that category. 

[Nowy Tends]

18 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It happens. Bolton will most likely be in that category. 

How would you know that? GRRM gives us all the elements needed to understand why Tywin wiped out two Houses, and he gives us all the elements to know that Stannis would never commit such acts.

btw, have you noticed that no one suggested to eliminate the Greyjoy after the Greyjoy rebellion? Not even Robert.

What happened to little Theon Greyjoy is the probable fate of Walda's child.

[Kandrax]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That's why he screws the lowborn women in his realm 

I wonder if he has another bastards beside Ramsay.

 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

baby do not posses

Boltons were once Red Kings.

[UnFit Finlay]

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Then why did Davos had to save Edric? Because it's blatantly false? 

You said that Stannis was going to burn Edric JUST because Melisandre asked him to. That is blatantly false. There was a ton of factors going on at that time. The most important of which, as I and others have said numerous times, is because it seemed like the only possible way to save the realm.

You may ignore that if you choose.

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How did I twist your words? You said that Stannis punishing criminals makes him just. That's all right, but it doesn't mean he would spare Walda's child.

No I didn't.

Hell, I'll just copy and paste what I just wrote "I used examples of Stannis' extreme views on justice as evidence that he wouldn't murder a baby that is innocent of any crime. Has Randyll ever mutilated a man who saved his life? Would Randyll ever Knight someone as lowborn as a smuggler? Or spare someone like Asha Greyjoy? Christ, Randyll threatened to kill his son because he was fat and liked to read, while Stannis fully intends for Shireen to take the Throne after him."

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Did I say Tywin is a just man? Or compare him to Stannis in any way? 

 

You said "every noble" punishes criminals. Tywin is a noble and yet he chose not to punish criminals who were useful to him. I very much doubt he is alone there. We know, for example, that Stannis wanted Janos Slynt punished for his corruption but Robert merely laughed it off. Hell even Jeor Mormont let the Night's Watch away with a little oathbreaking in Moles Town. I really can't see Stannis doing that.

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Yes. It's normal that he would. Everyone asks for something in return. He saves the realm and in return he will be called a king. 

Are you seriously going to edit out my entire point except for two words and then pretend you're responding to it? Really?

Stannis demanded fealty from the North and was rebuffed by almost all of them yet he's fighting their battles anyway. The Northerners who are with him are there because he asked them to help him against *their* enemies, not because he demanded it, and there are at least two Houses who have sworn fealty to him without his knowledge.

He isn't fighting the Iron Born or the Boltons to win the support of the North. They are supporting him because he's fighting the Iron Born and the Boltons. This is completely against your argument that he needs to kill kids to win the North to his cause. As I said previously, if he defeats their enemies they aren't going to go "Not enough. Kill the kids too!"

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It happens. Bolton will most likely be in that category. 

Perhaps. Not by Stannis' hand though. There is nothing in his character to suggest that he'd murder an innocent child solely for the crimes of it's father. Nothing at all.

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 hours ago, Castellan said:

Walder doesn't seem to care that much though. He has plenty offspring to spare. And once he's dead its going to be every heir for himself so probably only her immediate family members would want to chip in.

Meh, the one good thing(morally wise), about Lord Walder seems to be his belief "blood is blood" (to which he grilled in his heir's head), though he may not show much love for his offspring(to put it mildly), he does seem to have a sense of obligation to his kin. Even the bastards. He would likely pay the ransom for her and his unborn child. If she is captured and assuming he lives long enough to do so.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Perhaps. Not by Stannis' hand though. There is nothing in his character to suggest that he'd murder an innocent child solely for the crimes of it's father. Nothing at all.

If I'm not mistaken he plans to destroy the children begotten by Cersi and Jaime.

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

So he would let Walda and her baby live and risk that one day they seek for revenge? I don't think so. 

Stannis didn't burn Mance's boy after executing him

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

The guy gelds his own men for rape and even mutilated the man who saved his life for his prior crimes. That's not a man who is going to execute innocent kids just because someone asked him to. 

 

To be fair, Davos was guilty of smuggling,and worthy of getting his head cut off-and his reason for saving Stannis was purely for his own personal profit(starving rich men would give every bit of gold they have for food), I imagine most other lords would may pay the gold Davos asked for the food but offer no more reward-hell not even offer a pardon if Davos hadn't made it a condition to get food.

[Castellan]

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Stannis didn't burn Mance's boy after executing him

Had Melisandre suggested it, he would have.

[Nowy Tends]

35 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Stannis didn't burn Mance's boy after executing him

And not only he doesn't kill Asha Greyjoy, he has her "watched" by Alysane Mormont.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I wonder if he has another bastards beside Ramsay.

I am sure the other women are smart enough to drink moon tea 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I am sure the other women are smart enough to drink moon tea 

 

 Not simply a matter of intelligence, Depending upon how much exactly it costs, how far is the nearest woodswitch and their feelings upon the pregnancy(perhaps they consider the thing growing inside them to be her child am). 

[Varysblackfyre321]

38 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

And not only he doesn't kill Asha Greyjoy, he has her "watched" by Alysane Mormont.

He hasn't burned her as of this moment-will he? That remains to be seen- she is an adult and she is a rebel soldier- and she's married so she's near useless as anything but a trophy to present to the north to show his competency-I can imagine wanting to avoid burning his own heir (which Martin says he will do) he would sacrifice her and Theon.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think sending them abroad would have been wise. He could have had Stannis, Eddard, or Jon Arryn foster them. Although it might have been best to foster them himself. They were his first cousins once removed. 

That's also a good solution. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Boltons were once Red Kings.

True, but to be honest many houses are former Kings. I'll be honest I think there is no power in Kings blood myself no more than anyone else's anyway. But that isn't really the point in regards what Stannis would do. He certainly thinks there is. But whether or not he thinks the distant kinglyness of the Boltons would garner any power and so make it worth sacrificing the baby is something we can't really answer as theer is no evidence in the text either way. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If I'm not mistaken he plans to destroy the children begotten by Cersi and Jaime.

I've been searching and can't find anything about him wanting to kill Cersei's children. He calls them monsters often but never says directly that I can see that he wants them dead. 

 

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[The Weirwoods Eyes]

 

There is this quote from ASOS Davos IV; pertaining to the proposed sacking of Claw Isle. 

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Yet Ser Axell proposes we swoop down on the homes they left behind, to rape their windows and put their children to the sword. These smallfolk are no traitors . . ."

He sounds pretty definitively against the killing of innocent children here. Even smallfolks children. 

So whilst he would have indeed burnt Edric I think without the motivation that he had for that it is something he would not do. As was pointed out Mance's son was left alone and Jon removed him because he feared what Mellisandre might do. Not Stannis. IIRC he only sent Aemon Steelsong away after Stannis left the wall. 

Yes we know Shireen will be burnt but I don't think the quote from D&D saying GRRM told them this includes the circumstances. We don't yet know if Stannis does it or if Selyse orders it at the wall. Which is where Shireen is currently; not with Stannis. 

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's not for the sake of it. It's the child which one day might come after him. And Edric Storm escaped. It's not as if Stannis changed his mind, so he thought of it briefly.

Yes and because it was one of Salla's captains and Salla had no other ships Stannis failed to give chase, right?

He also didn't punish Rolland Storm and Davos but showered them with honors because... Well I can't recall but he must have some sneaky plan rewarding people who smuggled Edric he so desperately wanted to burn.

Ugh.

[The Sunland Lord]

29 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ugh.

You don't have to reply to everyone, you know.

I'll be civilized and say let's agree to disagree.