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5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've been searching and can't find anything about him wanting to kill Cersei's children. He calls them monsters often but never says directly that I can see that he wants them dead. 

 

There is this from Davos IV in Storm.

Quote

 "I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged."

It definitely reads like he's planning to have them killed.

Saying (once) isn't doing, of course. And there is a huge difference between the "abominations" whose existence mocks his brother, and who have effectively usurped Stannis' Throne, and the trueborn baby of a Lord he merely dislikes.

It is a valid point even if I still don't believe he'd kill Walda and her child.

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1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

There is this from Davos IV in Storm.

It definitely reads like he's planning to have them killed.

Saying (once) isn't doing, of course. And there is a huge difference between the "abominations" whose existence mocks his brother, and who have effectively usurped Stannis' Throne, and the trueborn baby of a Lord he merely dislikes.

It is a valid point even if I still don't believe he'd kill Walda and her child.

Perhaps, or maybe he would compel Myrcella to join the Silent Sisters and compel Tommen to join the Night's Watch. Or not. Cersei would definitely be executed. 

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2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

There is this from Davos IV in Storm.

It definitely reads like he's planning to have them killed.

Saying (once) isn't doing, of course. And there is a huge difference between the "abominations" whose existence mocks his brother, and who have effectively usurped Stannis' Throne, and the trueborn baby of a Lord he merely dislikes.

It is a valid point even if I still don't believe he'd kill Walda and her child.

Thank you. It is debatable isn't it. Does he mean kill them all? or does he mean remove them from power? Cersei definitely I think would be executed cuckolding a King was a capital crime in just about every country in the world historically. But he might have drawn the line at killing children for the crimes of their parents. I think other solutions can and likely would have been found. That was said in the heat of the moment once. As you pointed out.  And as Lost Melnibonian pointed out there are institutions where each can be sent Myrcella can become a septa(ss is a bit harsh for the lass she wasn't to know she isn't really a princess.) The only thing that needs to be ensured is that non of them reproduce legitimately. Tommen the Nights Watch. Joffrey I think would have had to have been executed too as he was crowned King and sat the IT. And is almost at his majority. That is a bit too risky even stashing him in the NW is a bit risky still. 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps, or maybe he would compel Myrcella to join the Silent Sisters and compel Tommen to join the Night's Watch. Or not. Cersei would definitely be executed. 

He has no value or respect for such institutions as the NW and the silent sisters-likely the Justice He entails is having them destroyed to be sure-I'm sure if Cersi had begotten children with someone other than her kin, Stannis would have granted some mercy and allowed the children to face exile-but they are living abominations to which in Stannis's eyes it is a crime to which they are even alive.

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45 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Joffrey I think would have had to have been executed too as he was crowned King and sat the IT. And is almost at his majority. That is a bit too risky even stashing him in the NW is a bit risky still. 

And one can be sure that Joffrey would not accept the situation and would say or do something really stupid in front of Stannis, which would spare him the journey up to the wall but not the shopping block…

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34 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He has no value or respect for such institutions as the NW and the silent sisters-

Where did you get this idea? He came to help the NW, established his camp in one of the NW's castles, and he leaves his family there when he goes to war…

As for the Silent Sisters I don't think he ever mentioned them…

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1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

Where did you get this idea? He came to help the NW, established his camp in one of the NW's castles, and he leaves his family there when he goes to war…

 

He came to end the wildling invasion to garner support from the Northern houses to which he needs to win his war. 

The NW being saved is but a by product.

And he's irritated that the brotherhood isn't falling over to cater to his every whim even if it against protocol for them.

Hes outright furious  with Jon for not immediately breaking all his oaths to become lord of winterfell, mocks the guy even, his "do I need you to take your oaths in front of a tree" comment shows just how little he sees the NW.

Yes he's established a camp in a NW castle. He left his heir in their care. And? By virtue of using them doesn't mean respecting them or valuing them in any way outside what slight aid they can give in his war campaighn. Stannis had Davos hire pirates as well to support Stannis's fleet-he used these pirates for they served his interests but he would still look down upon them.

As for the silent sisters-we've seen time and time again how hostile Stannis is of religion, how absurd he finds the idea of really worshipping gods, how it makes no real sense to pay tribute to gods such of the seven who've proven useless.

He's not going to respect such an institution that allows the guilty to avoid real justice for their crimes just because they are allowed to devote their lives to the gods to which he feels nothing but bitterness and bile for. 

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Hes outright furious  with Jon for not immediately breaking all his oaths to become lord of winterfell, mocks the guy even, his "do I need you to take your oaths in front of a tree" comment shows just how little he sees the NW.

It shows that Stannis is upset and angry at Jon, I fail to see the relation with the NW as an institution.

Yes he's established a camp in a NW castle. He left his heir in their care. And? By virtue of using them doesn't mean respecting them or valuing them in any way outside what slight aid they can give in his war campaighn.

Sure, leaving his family in the hands of men he despises is soooo typical of Stannis…

Stannis had Davos hire pirates as well to support Stannis's fleet-he used these pirates for they served his interests but he would still look down upon them.

Pirats are outlaws. Stannis despising them is in the order of things… And do you think he would let his family stay in the pirats den?

As for the silent sisters-we've seen time and time again how hostile Stannis is of religion, how absurd he finds the idea of really worshipping gods, how it makes no real sense to pay tribute to gods such of the seven who've proven useless.

How does it shows that Stannis has no respect for the institution, just like most atheists/agnostics respect religion and clerks…

He's not going to respect such an institution that allows the guilty to avoid real justice for their crimes just because they are allowed to devote their lives to the gods to which he feels nothing but bitterness and bile for. 

What are you talking about? The Black Brothers don't devote their lives to the gods, and the Silent Sisters order isn't a alternative to real justice… You're mixing everything.

 

 

Edited by Nowy Tends

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5 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Hes outright furious  with Jon for not immediately breaking all his oaths to become lord of winterfell, mocks the guy even, his "do I need you to take your oaths in front of a tree" comment shows just how little he sees the NW.

It shows that Stannis is upset and angry at Jon, I fail to see the relation with the NW as an institution.

It shows Stannis does not respect Jon's duty to the NW, that he thinks it's very rituals for induction are a joke. Jon's oaths to the old gods  to be forever bound to the brotherhood, his very duty to the brotherhood isn't a good enough reason to refuse Stannis's offer. When he belittle and mocks Jon's decision to stay true to his vows, do his duty as lord commander he shows very much he does not respect the brotherhood.

9 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

leaving his family in the hands of men he despises is soooo typical of Stannis…

I did not say despise; I said he does respect the brotherhood; chief difference; he will use garner every bit of potential benifit from them just he would the Pirates  he hired, but doing that does not automatically=respect.

The NW as of this state is dependent upon Stannis, Jon's mission plan to settle the wildlings in the northern province of the 7 kingdoms is dependent upon Stannis's success. He'd have reason to to think his family isn't in any more danger there than anywhere else. 

19 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

How does it shows that Stannis has no respect for the institution, just like most atheists/agnostics respect religion and clerks…

He's not really an atheist or agnostic; he's an anti-theist, if anything and has made abundantly clear he finds the gods who let the his parents drowned undeserving of worship and completely useless. 

29 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

What are you talking about? The Black Brothers don't devote their lives to the gods, and the Silent Sisters order isn't a alternative to real justice… You're mixing everything.

 

The oaths each brother takes is to a god; either the old, the 7, or even drowned. It does have a religious element to which cannot be denied, the oaths to the gods bind them to the brotherhood. Women can be sent to the silent sisters rather as a form of punishment-but to an anti-theist like Stannis, how much really is this a just punishment? How could he see a woman Justice get to just devote their lives to useless gods as justice for any crime. It simply wouldn't be. 

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6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps, or maybe he would compel Myrcella to join the Silent Sisters and compel Tommen to join the Night's Watch. Or not. Cersei would definitely be executed. 

There is one thing about Tommen and Myrcella. They are considered abominations, and as such doesn't deserve to live.

 

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

anti-theist,

Precise term would be misotheist for someone who believes that a god exist, but doesn't like him.

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22 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Thank you. It is debatable isn't it. Does he mean kill them all? or does he mean remove them from power? Cersei definitely I think would be executed cuckolding a King was a capital crime in just about every country in the world historically. But he might have drawn the line at killing children for the crimes of their parents. I think other solutions can and likely would have been found. That was said in the heat of the moment once. As you pointed out.  And as Lost Melnibonian pointed out there are institutions where each can be sent Myrcella can become a septa(ss is a bit harsh for the lass she wasn't to know she isn't really a princess.) The only thing that needs to be ensured is that non of them reproduce legitimately. Tommen the Nights Watch. Joffrey I think would have had to have been executed too as he was crowned King and sat the IT. And is almost at his majority. That is a bit too risky even stashing him in the NW is a bit risky still. 

I can't picture any scenario where Stannis(or for that matter any of the claimants) would allow Tommen and Myrcella to live. Alive they would always represent a threat to the crown and the realm. Look at the Blackfyres and how many times they and their children contested the crown. Even exiled to the Night's Watch and as a Septa, there's a chance they could escape, have children and eventually become a problem. From Stannis' point of view, he'd be doing his duty to the realm by preventing future wars by killing those two.

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19 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He came to end the wildling invasion to garner support from the Northern houses to which he needs to win his war. 

The NW being saved is but a by product.

I disagree.

If anything you've got it backwards. He came North to protect the Realm. The Northern Houses supporting him is a by product of that. After all, all but one of the Northern Houses originally rebuffed him and he continued to fight

I think his priorities are made clear when he says this to Jon.

Quote

Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight."

Also, as irritated as he's been with the Night's Watch's procedures and traditions, he has allowed them to carry them out, when he could simply have seized control. He might not respect those traditions but that does not mean he doesn't respect the institution and the men that are there.

He also moans that Robert didn't "at the very least" send Jaime to the Wall for killing Aerys which suggests he does see it as an appropriate form of punishment.

8 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I can't picture any scenario where Stannis(or for that matter any of the claimants) would allow Tommen and Myrcella to live. Alive they would always represent a threat to the crown and the realm. Look at the Blackfyres and how many times they and their children contested the crown. Even exiled to the Night's Watch and as a Septa, there's a chance they could escape, have children and eventually become a problem. From Stannis' point of view, he'd be doing his duty to the realm by preventing future wars by killing those two.

I don't know about that.

It's possible that Myrcella could be a problem but, by joining the Night's Watch, Tommen is renouncing all his claims and swearing to never have children. If he escapes, and not released from his vows as Stannis and Robb intended for Jon, then he's an oathbreaker whose life is forfeit. The kids he swore never to have can't turn up and demand the birthright that he's already forfeited. It would be like Benjen Stark declaring himself Lord of Winterfell.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

 Alive they would always represent a threat to the crown and the realm.

I can't see how.

You forget the "abomination" thing… these children, as the result of an incestuous adultery, will be considered as monsters all their life. They will be pariah.

Tommen at the Wall, Myrcella with the Silent Sisters (based in a sept very distant from KL,) without a penny nor a friend, what can they do?

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I just don't get one thing, why would her child (if it is a boy) be a threat to Ramsay's position. Ramsay is no longer a bastard, so he is Roose's heir. Fat Walda's child comes after, no matter if it is a boy or a girl.

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14 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

I just don't get one thing, why would her child (if it is a boy) be a threat to Ramsay's position. Ramsay is no longer a bastard, so he is Roose's heir. Fat Walda's child comes after, no matter if it is a boy or a girl.

Because of the prejudices of this society; the stain of bastardy is not erased by legitimization… If the child is a boy the Freys will certainly remind to everybody that Ramsay is the by-product of a raped low born…

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1 hour ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

I just don't get one thing, why would her child (if it is a boy) be a threat to Ramsay's position. Ramsay is no longer a bastard, so he is Roose's heir. Fat Walda's child comes after, no matter if it is a boy or a girl.

Heck, if he were decent human being it would make a lot of sense to take such a boy as page and squire, and wed him into another house as an ally. Speaking hypothetically, if Ramsay were to hold onto Winterfell and the North, it might make sense to give the boy the Dreadfort. 

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1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I don't know about that.

It's possible that Myrcella could be a problem but, by joining the Night's Watch, Tommen is renouncing all his claims and swearing to never have children. If he escapes, and not released from his vows as Stannis and Robb intended for Jon, then he's an oathbreaker whose life is forfeit. The kids he swore never to have can't turn up and demand the birthright that he's already forfeited. It would be like Benjen Stark declaring himself Lord of Winterfell.

It could be easy argued an oath elicited by a blade at your throat isn't exactly valid. Even if anyone would take such an oath seriously, his children if he has any wouldn't be bound by it. The potential would always be there, even if unlikely. Better to yank the weed by the root before it spreads.

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

I can't see how.

You forget the "abomination" thing… these children, as the result of an incestuous adultery, will be considered as monsters all their life. They will be pariah.

Tommen at the Wall, Myrcella with the Silent Sisters (based in a sept very distant from KL,) without a penny nor a friend, what can they do?

Everyone already "knows" they're not Robert's children or at least suspects. Given the current level of support Stannis enjoys as the "rightful" king, the truth isn't very important to the lords of Westeros. Only what's in their best interest. Which is also why I think fAegon will enjoy a good level of success despite his questionable lineage.

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2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Everyone already "knows" they're not Robert's children or at least suspects. Given the current level of support Stannis enjoys as the "rightful" king, the truth isn't very important to the lords of Westeros. Only what's in their best interest. Which is also why I think fAegon will enjoy a good level of success despite his questionable lineage.

Everyone knows Stannis(a massively unpopular man), is claiming they are not Robert's kids-it sounds implausible and most people haven't been shown to put any real weight in the accusation, since Stannis has provided no proof, cannot provide proof and thus looks like nothing more than a bitter evil uncle trying to steal his brother's children's throne

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10 hours ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

I just don't get one thing, why would her child (if it is a boy) be a threat to Ramsay's position. Ramsay is no longer a bastard, so he is Roose's heir. Fat Walda's child comes after, no matter if it is a boy or a girl.

The taint of bastardry is not removed completely.  Ramsay is legalized but he was not true-born.  Roose + Walda = true-born and comes before Ramsay.  Or at least a close enough claim as to present a threat.  Walda's son should turn out closer to Domeric than Ramsay.  

I don't know what Walda knows.  She may not have put two and two together.  But we can assume Big Walder has.  If anybody is going to do something to protect a Walda son from Ramsay it will be Big Walder.  That little man is sharp.  He's my choice to inherit the twins from Lord Walder.  He's not sadistic but he has enough ruthlessness in him to succeed.   Walda's son is not in line to inherit the twins.  He is half Frey.  Big Walder may take it upon himself to protect the little guy.  A half Frey inheriting the north is a marvelous thing.  I don't see how Big Walder could be opposed to that.  Ramsay inheriting the north does nothing to benefit the Freys.

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On 4/29/2018 at 2:40 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Roose Bolton believes his future sons with Walda will be murdered by Ramsay.  Walda is far from stupid.  The Freys are keen observers and they know how to play games.  It won't take long for this woman to figure what kind of a man his stepson is.  What can Lady Bolton do to keep her future sons (assuming she will have one or two, because the Freys are fertile) safe from Ramsay?  What are her best (but realistic) options?

I like Fat Walda.  It would not upset me to have her son with Roose inherit the north.

Ramsay has to go.  Her son(s) will never be safe as long as Ramsay is alive.  

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