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Bakker LIV - Soul Sphincter


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9 minutes ago, End of Disc One said:

While I definitely think the first series is better, the second series has more moments that really stick with me.  I'll definitely be rereading these books some day.

Trying to remember my most memorable moments from series two:

Sarl and the slog.

Mimara vs the Balrog stand in

Achamian and Cleric vs CAPSLOCK dragon

Achamian vs Cleric

The Survivor's realization

Ishteribinth

Kellhus in the Golden Room pretty much right up until the end when it all goes sideways (I would still argue that its still good in the context of the actual text, it was only after Bakker opened his mouth outside the series that it got bad)

 

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Really great scenes from TSA (comparable to the best from PoN)?  It's a short list for me. 

 - The battle through Cil-Aujas

 - Maithanet, Inrilitas and Kelmomas showdown

 - Kellhus topples one horn of Golgotterath

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For me, it was:

1. CLERIC. Everything involving him. "You will hear my sermon!"

2. All scenes with Proyas, ESPECIALLY in the Great Ordeal, despite the, er, rape. In TUC? At first? Yes. After being "hung out to dry"?  HELL NO!!!!!1 :angry:

3. Dagliash and BOOM. Aftermath.

4. Ishteribinth

5. The Survivor/Boy

6. The "slog of slogs".

7. Everything involving Inrilatas because he should have been the Emperor.

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Ishterebinth alone would have made the Second Trilogy worth reading for me, but there's plenty of other good stuff as well. Just everything about Ishterebinth was the best part of the Great Ordeal (and holy shit the ending of that plot line). 

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1 hour ago, Fall Bass said:

Ishterebinth alone would have made the Second Trilogy worth reading for me, but there's plenty of other good stuff as well. Just everything about Ishterebinth was the best part of the Great Ordeal (and holy shit the ending of that plot line). 

Yes the bit where he didn’t end the plot line was especially galling.

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37 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Yes the bit where he didn’t end the plot line was especially galling.

This is just your blind brain’s reaction to a new kind of meaning. Consider your ambiguity meaning creating synapses primed, biatch. 

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On 5/20/2018 at 10:22 AM, Triskele said:

Heh - I assume that Bass is referring to Oirunas' appearance in the throne room and the end of Nin-Ciljiras and Harapior which was indeed pretty awesome.  But there's another complaint about TUC:  there was nothing else interesting about the Nonmen of Ishterebinth whatsoever in TUC.  We had the Red Ghoul and a few others show up and fight a little but that's it:  nothing about what else transpired at Ishterebinth or where the Nonmen go from here or what happened to Oirunas.  Nothing.  

instead we did get extra chapters written of cannibal rape fun times, so that's a quality draft trade.

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On 5/20/2018 at 11:22 AM, Triskele said:

Heh - I assume that Bass is referring to Oirunas' appearance in the throne room and the end of Nin-Ciljiras and Harapior which was indeed pretty awesome. 

This.

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1 hour ago, Triskele said:

And the plot of that whole arc of Oinaral (sp) taking Sorweel all the way down just to make sure the message that the Vile ruled the Mountain was delivered since he'd probably not be coming back...just great.  One of my favorite parts of any Bakker book and a part of (but not the only part) why I loved The Great Ordeal which just made TUC's letdown more surprising and painful.  

I personally thought this chapter was weird as fuck and just dragged on and on. Loved the rest of Isrerebenth and TUC though. 

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8 hours ago, Triskele said:

One part that was weird was how bodies were dropping but they were saying how unlikely it was to be suicides as if someone was throwing live Nonmen at them but never any explanation.  

Well, not an exact answer, but:

Quote

“So if they didn’t leap—then what?” He paused, realizing the dread alternative. “Were they thrown?”

Oinaral glanced at him sharply, then resumed staring upward, the swales of his face shining for the radiance of the peering.

“Were they thrown?” Sorweel pressed. “Could Nin’ciljiras somehow know what we attempt?”

Oinaral remained silent, avoiding his gaze as ever.

Presumably, either yes, thrown, or jump themselves (I guess more probably, because of how Oinaral chooses to not answer), but in either case I think they are sacrifices in an attempt to stop them.

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Boy, I really loved TSA overall, and Bakker seems like a nice enough chap. Why all the decisiveness in these threads. Sorry, just a newb here and don't understand it. Thats all, thank you.

As to Oinaral and the jumpers, I agree that they was a sacrifice to stop them.

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4 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Boy, I really loved TSA overall, and Bakker seems like a nice enough chap. Why all the decisiveness in these threads. Sorry, just a newb here and don't understand it. Thats all, thank you.

Well, the old threads are still available if you want to read them.  Really the fandom on the forum only soured on Bakker after TUC was published, and it grew much worse after he gave online responses to many questions which revealed a level of cluelessness and douchebaggery that many people did not care for. 

Main criticisms are that Bakker has an attitude that criticisms of his work are that readers don't "get" them, as if anyone who dislikes his work couldn't possibly understand it.  This attitude is very offputting.  In addition, his work in TSA was often about building up various mysteries that would be explained later.  But with TUC it became clear that many things in the novels were not building towards anything, or that the payoff was intentionally anticlimactic.  This rendered many of the central characters and plotlines in TSA almost irrelevant in the end, which left a lot of people disappointed.  Just for a few examples, the White Luck Warrior didn't end up mattering at all, the Judging Eye was never used on Kellhus and thus never really relevant to the overarching plot, the nonmen of Ishterebinth are interesting, but end up playing an almost trivial role in the final battle, etc. 

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13 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Well, the old threads are still available if you want to read them.  Really the fandom on the forum only soured on Bakker after TUC was published, and it grew much worse after he gave online responses to many questions which revealed a level of cluelessness and douchebaggery that many people did not care for. 

Main criticisms are that Bakker has an attitude that criticisms of his work are that readers don't "get" them, as if anyone who dislikes his work couldn't possibly understand it.  This attitude is very offputting.  In addition, his work in TSA was often about building up various mysteries that would be explained later.  But with TUC it became clear that many things in the novels were not building towards anything, or that the payoff was intentionally anticlimactic.  This rendered many of the central characters and plotlines in TSA almost irrelevant in the end, which left a lot of people disappointed.  Just for a few examples, the White Luck Warrior didn't end up mattering at all, the Judging Eye was never used on Kellhus and thus never really relevant to the overarching plot, the nonmen of Ishterebinth are interesting, but end up playing an almost trivial role in the final battle, etc. 

Right, I was initially upset myself. The big thing Bakker had going was Layers of Revelation....not so much revelation. But, after I digested it, we do (hopefully) have a 3rd series where these questions could be answered. I still believe the series as a whole was still very good. But, TUC and TGO felt a little rushed.....and contrived. Lets hope the 3rd series will peel back thise revelations and get some answers.

Oh, also I seen a theory recently that Kellhua will take Seswatha's place for the dreams. Excellent theorizing, and it fits with "Kellhus is dead but not done". 

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2 hours ago, Esmenet said:

Right, I was initially upset myself. The big thing Bakker had going was Layers of Revelation....not so much revelation. But, after I digested it, we do (hopefully) have a 3rd series where these questions could be answered. I still believe the series as a whole was still very good. But, TUC and TGO felt a little rushed.....and contrived. Lets hope the 3rd series will peel back thise revelations and get some answers.

Oh, also I seen a theory recently that Kellhua will take Seswatha's place for the dreams. Excellent theorizing, and it fits with "Kellhus is dead but not done". 

The third series is as of now just speculation.  Bakker also implied (on this forum) that the in-world sexism and misogyny would be turned on its head later on.  That clearly didn't happen unless we consider the cunny dragon his way of doing that.  

I actually think the second series was still pretty good (though not even comparable to the first) but I think RSB really failed to deliver a lot of what he set out to achieve.  But that's probably me just have my experience of meaning fucked with *eyeroll* 

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