Bakker LIV - Soul Sphincter

[Dora Vee]

They have? When?

 

You mean the Unholy Consult?

[Darth Richard II]

Oh dear. Yeah, um, someone more rational and not on a phone can probably fill you in.

[Gronzag]

3 hours ago, Dora Vee said:

It was Madness who said it and he's pretty close to Bakker.

You mean, they live in the same body?

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

You mean, they live in the same body?

That would explain a LOT.

[lokisnow]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:18 PM, Dora Vee said:

They have? When?

 

You mean the Unholy Consult?

As best we can tell bakker finished the third and final Book of the aspect emperor trilogy but didn’t want it published without his ebook worthy glossary, instead he wanted a new four book contract in both the US and UK instead of his three book contract so he could get paid for an extra book.

Bakker wanted to split the final book into the great ordeal and the unholy consult and his publishers refused the book split and renegotiation.

Bakker and “madness” then started a campaign of lies that the publisher was refusing to publish his final book in order to create a “ fan led” pressure campaign on the publishers to force them to renegotiate with him.

After the “fan” campaign the publishers did renegotiate, which led to another year of delays to great ordeal being published, but bakker did get his glossary published in unholy consult instead of it being released as an ebook.

And since the final volume did not have enough content to constitute a novel he included two actual ebooks as add ons to the novel and he also added to the final book a hundred pages of cannibal rape chapters to pad out the book to novel length as he deemed that the section where he could add content without having rewrite anything else.

[End of Disc One]

That's interesting.  I remember there being some controversy on this board regarding Madness and Bakker, but the admins here usually delete any evidence of controversy before I can tell what's going on.  

[Larry of the Lawn]

It's not even clear that all that happened, but we do know for sure that Madness completely lied about the content of TGO before its release.  So many times that it seemed he couldn't even keep the lies straight.  @lokisnow 's post above is one possible explanation for the lies.

[Hello World]

I was just looking at the Wiki and I remembered all that time when this was my favorite series... it's so sad how it all turned out (for me).

[Dora Vee]

It still is my favorite series, but TUC....gggrrrr....

[Wik]

Ok....haven't been here in a couple years. I apologize before hand as it appears Bakker has been an in depth discussion for some time. I just finished the series last night. 

 

So, I guess I am looking for input on "what happened". I guess i missed somethings as part of the end didn't make sense to me but the complete anti-climatic end was a real downer. Anyone care to explain their "take" or link to others posts this may have been discussed in?

Sad as I LOVED the series, but it was also tedious and rough sometimes where I felt like Bakker just went off the rails. The end was less than stellar and I felt some of the later character development was lacking compared to earlier development. 

 

Anyhow, looks like a real scrum of opinions here and thought I would see what input folks may have for me on this. 

 

Thanks, talk soon.   

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Wik said:

Ok....haven't been here in a couple years. I apologize before hand as it appears Bakker has been an in depth discussion for some time. I just finished the series last night. 

 

So, I guess I am looking for input on "what happened". I guess i missed somethings as part of the end didn't make sense to me but the complete anti-climatic end was a real downer. Anyone care to explain their "take" or link to others posts this may have been discussed in?

There's probably some posts here and there, but basically here's (as far as I know) the most authoritative take:

• Kellhus:
  • Kellhus's actual plan was to defeat the Consult/Dunyain...somehow (he left that vague)
  • He made a deal with Ajokli, probably around the time of the Circumfix
  • He thought he would be able to cope with Ajokli, but Ajokli slowly but surely possessed him, culminating in Ajokli's full possession of Kellhus at the end of the book
  • Most of his thoughts and his 'darkness' are not human concerns, but are Ajokli manipulating him.
  • Kellhus did turn to salt, but he (or his soul) is out there in some form - possibly as one of the heads on his belt.
• Kelmomas:
  • was always fated to be the No-God because he was the No-God, and as the No-God exists outside of the Earwan time (and is invisible to the Gods) Kelmomas has always been invisible to the gods
  • This explains a lot of why he's so fucked up
  • This is why Ajokli freaks out and gets surprised - because he cannot see Kelmomas.
  • This is also why Sorweel gets stopped by Kelmomas, as the White Luck cannot perceive anything that the gods cannot perceive.
• Mimara:
  • No idea on why she was needed at all
  • Judging eye less than useless
  • She appears to be not particularly important by herself, but is important because she had a really important kid
  • So basically she's only important to the story because she can have babies.
• Consult:
  • Much like Kellhus, the Dunyain that ended up 'taking over' the Consult actually were themselves taken over by Shaeonnara, who used them just like he used the wretches before. 
  • This is because the Dunyain are spiritually weak and extra prone to possession, and are pretty much blind to the possibility. 
  • Why they tried to nuke Kellhus when they thought he was the only possibility to run the No-God? Dunno
• The No-God:
  • Still don't know a whole lot
  • It does not require an Anasurimbor to function - Nau-Cayuti wasn't actually one - only that the Insertant has a brain pattern that works
  • It requires a certain amount of souls to pass through it in order to seal the world, meaning they die and go...nowhere
• Serwa:
  • probably still alive, saved by her brother
• Akka, Mimara and Esme:
  • escaped
• Mimara's baby:
  • Is super holy
  • might have Kellhus' soul in it
  •  
• The series in general:
  • Most of the entire series is deliberately without canonical meaning - it implies that there is depth and that there are answers, but there are none, and this is by design
  • If you feel frustrated by this, that was the intent of Bakker all along - to provoke your meaning-making facilities and see meaning where there wasn't any
  • The next books do not have a specific ending in mind or even any specific story; the ending you read was the ending Bakker has envisioned this series to have since he was a teenager
  • The next book is rumored to be about the Dunyain kid that Koringhus was protecting, who we nicknamed "Crabicus" after his crablike hand.
  • It's also unclear if the No-God will be stopped or if we're simply going to see what living in an apocalypse is like

 

[Wik]

8 hours ago, Kalbear said:

There's probably some posts here and there, but basically here's (as far as I know) the most authoritative take:

• Kellhus:
  • Kellhus's actual plan was to defeat the Consult/Dunyain...somehow (he left that vague)
  • He made a deal with Ajokli, probably around the time of the Circumfix
  • He thought he would be able to cope with Ajokli, but Ajokli slowly but surely possessed him, culminating in Ajokli's full possession of Kellhus at the end of the book
  • Most of his thoughts and his 'darkness' are not human concerns, but are Ajokli manipulating him.
  • Kellhus did turn to salt, but he (or his soul) is out there in some form - possibly as one of the heads on his belt.
• Kelmomas:
  • was always fated to be the No-God because he was the No-God, and as the No-God exists outside of the Earwan time (and is invisible to the Gods) Kelmomas has always been invisible to the gods
  • This explains a lot of why he's so fucked up
  • This is why Ajokli freaks out and gets surprised - because he cannot see Kelmomas.
  • This is also why Sorweel gets stopped by Kelmomas, as the White Luck cannot perceive anything that the gods cannot perceive.
• Mimara:
  • No idea on why she was needed at all
  • Judging eye less than useless
  • She appears to be not particularly important by herself, but is important because she had a really important kid
  • So basically she's only important to the story because she can have babies.
• Consult:
  • Much like Kellhus, the Dunyain that ended up 'taking over' the Consult actually were themselves taken over by Shaeonnara, who used them just like he used the wretches before. 
  • This is because the Dunyain are spiritually weak and extra prone to possession, and are pretty much blind to the possibility. 
  • Why they tried to nuke Kellhus when they thought he was the only possibility to run the No-God? Dunno
• The No-God:
  • Still don't know a whole lot
  • It does not require an Anasurimbor to function - Nau-Cayuti wasn't actually one - only that the Insertant has a brain pattern that works
  • It requires a certain amount of souls to pass through it in order to seal the world, meaning they die and go...nowhere
• Serwa:
  • probably still alive, saved by her brother
• Akka, Mimara and Esme:
  • escaped
• Mimara's baby:
  • Is super holy
  • might have Kellhus' soul in it
  •  
• The series in general:
  • Most of the entire series is deliberately without canonical meaning - it implies that there is depth and that there are answers, but there are none, and this is by design
  • If you feel frustrated by this, that was the intent of Bakker all along - to provoke your meaning-making facilities and see meaning where there wasn't any
  • The next books do not have a specific ending in mind or even any specific story; the ending you read was the ending Bakker has envisioned this series to have since he was a teenager
  • The next book is rumored to be about the Dunyain kid that Koringhus was protecting, who we nicknamed "Crabicus" after his crablike hand.
  • It's also unclear if the No-God will be stopped or if we're simply going to see what living in an apocalypse is like

 

At work so can't really give any in depth response or follow ups but THANK you for such a detailed response. Very much appreciated and Ill follow up hopefully this evening ..... 

[Maithanet]

10 hours ago, Kalbear said:

There's probably some posts here and there, but basically here's (as far as I know) the most authoritative take:

• Consult:
  • Much like Kellhus, the Dunyain that ended up 'taking over' the Consult actually were themselves taken over by Shaeonnara, who used them just like he used the wretches before. 
  • This is because the Dunyain are spiritually weak and extra prone to possession, and are pretty much blind to the possibility.

This is still just a theory.  Like any good theory there's some textual evidence to support it (namely that the Dunyain speak in a similar fashion to Shae's soul wretches earlier), but there are definitely other interpretations.  It's quite possible that when Dunyain speak as a group, that's just how they sound, since they're all driven by the Logos. 

IF Bakker wanted us to know that the Dunyain were speaking with Shae's voice, he had ample opportunity to make that clear.  It's certainly something Kellhus would have noticed, since he'd met those Dunyain prior to leaving Ishual.  But instead it's just one of the many things that Bakker left ambiguous for little discernible reason. 

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, Maithanet said:

This is still just a theory.  Like any good theory there's some textual evidence to support it (namely that the Dunyain speak in a similar fashion to Shae's soul wretches earlier), but there are definitely other interpretations.  It's quite possible that when Dunyain speak as a group, that's just how they sound, since they're all driven by the Logos. 

It's a theory, but it's supported heavily by hints Bakker said in his AMA and in other places. Nothing I wrote is absolutely set in stone anyway; it's the best understanding that I have currently based on textual and extratextual data. 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

I believe Bakker's extratextual commentary about as much as I'd believe a Dunyain.

[jurble]

20 hours ago, Kalbear said:

• Mimara:
  • No idea on why she was needed at all
  • Judging eye less than useless
  • She appears to be not particularly important by herself, but is important because she had a really important kid
  • So basically she's only important to the story because she can have babies.

She views the No-God with the Judging Eye at the end, in contrast to the possessed Cnaiur who can't see the No-God.   So she exists to demonstrate the point that whathisface, the crazy son of Kellhus', makes in TJE or the other book - that God is unconstrained.   The No-God functions because the Gods apparently obey some sort of metaphysical rules.  The God, whose Eye Mimara possesses, doesn't obey any rules.  It also shows that Moe was wrong at the end of the original trilogy when he says that The God sleeps.

So in a way, she demonstrates the Consult's plan is possibly all for naught.  They're still operating within the metaphysical rules of the Bakkerverse, but The God could just as easily right-click delete the No-God if it so desires.

[lokisnow]

18 minutes ago, ير بال said:

She views the No-God with the Judging Eye at the end, in contrast to the possessed Cnaiur who can't see the No-God.   So she exists to demonstrate the point that whathisface, the crazy son of Kellhus', makes in TJE or the other book - that God is unconstrained.   The No-God functions because the Gods apparently obey some sort of metaphysical rules.  The God, whose Eye Mimara possesses, doesn't obey any rules.  It also shows that Moe was wrong at the end of the original trilogy when he says that The God sleeps.

So in a way, she demonstrates the Consult's plan is possibly all for naught.  They're still operating within the metaphysical rules of the Bakkerverse, but The God could just as easily right-click delete the No-God if it so desires.

This is a great post. It would be even more great if bakker has written some of it into the text. It would have been good if bakker had written the first two series as establishing a meta conflict between two constrained forces (consult vs the gods).  And the opposition of two unconstrained forces being revealed by the climax of TUC would make it a much better book and it would set up a sequel better, the unconditioned ground of the opposition of two unconstrained forces.

but bakker didn’t write any of that nor set up any of that, if that was his intent his execution was beyond abysmal. If that were the explanation it is more of a retcon than anything else.

in any event forcing any meaning into the books is a fools errand

take ajokli and Shae both consuming dunyain victims without their knowledge, that is the sort of thematic and structural parallel ones brain notices as a pattern and ascribes meaning to. For any other author, developing those kind of associations is a key part of the writing process. Bakker rejects all that. So although the idea of Shae taking over the dunyain FEELS right it only feels right because it fits a textual pattern our brain is primed to see. 

So it is probably nothing, just over active imagination.

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

18 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

.

in any event forcing any meaning into the books is a fools errand

take ajokli and Shae both consuming dunyain victims without their knowledge, that is the sort of thematic and structural parallel ones brain notices as a pattern and ascribes meaning to. For any other author, developing those kind of associations is a key part of the writing process. Bakker rejects all that. So although the idea of Shae taking over the dunyain FEELS right it only feels right because it fits a textual pattern our brain is primed to see. 

So it is probably nothing, just over active imagination.

 

It feels like quality literature, but then it turns out it was only aping a pattern our brains recognized

 

Ajencis, from Reflections of Society in Literature

ZING!

[jurble]

40 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

This is a great post. It would be even more great if bakker has written some of it into the text. It would have been good if bakker had written the first two series as establishing a meta conflict between two constrained forces (consult vs the gods).  And the opposition of two unconstrained forces being revealed by the climax of TUC would make it a much better book and it would set up a sequel better, the unconditioned ground of the opposition of two unconstrained forces.

but bakker didn’t write any of that nor set up any of that, if that was his intent his execution was beyond abysmal. If that were the explanation it is more of a retcon than anything else.

in any event forcing any meaning into the books is a fools errand

take ajokli and Shae both consuming dunyain victims without their knowledge, that is the sort of thematic and structural parallel ones brain notices as a pattern and ascribes meaning to. For any other author, developing those kind of associations is a key part of the writing process. Bakker rejects all that. So although the idea of Shae taking over the dunyain FEELS right it only feels right because it fits a textual pattern our brain is primed to see. 

So it is probably nothing, just over active imagination.

 

I disagree, you're taking some absurdist position that Bakker wrote the text sans subtext, which he did not.  He used all the typical things a writer users.  Just because certain things gave the illusion of depth doesn't mean there was no depth  e.g.  Kelmomas as the No-God is clearly foreshadowed.  The Ajokli plotline, which threw many people for a loop, wasn't meant to be obfuscated, it was poorly executed.   I don't know where this idea that Bakker wrote the book with no thematic elements comes from and it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  He himself has explicitly stated the first trilogy has a theme - it's an inverse-bildungsroman.  

His comments about people seeing structure that isn't there was in relation to complaints about the Mimara and Achamian storyline specifically, I believe - not the entirety of the novels.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, ير بال said:

She views the No-God with the Judging Eye at the end, in contrast to the possessed Cnaiur who can't see the No-God.   So she exists to demonstrate the point that whathisface, the crazy son of Kellhus', makes in TJE or the other book - that God is unconstrained.   The No-God functions because the Gods apparently obey some sort of metaphysical rules.  The God, whose Eye Mimara possesses, doesn't obey any rules.  It also shows that Moe was wrong at the end of the original trilogy when he says that The God sleeps.

So in a way, she demonstrates the Consult's plan is possibly all for naught.  They're still operating within the metaphysical rules of the Bakkerverse, but The God could just as easily right-click delete the No-God if it so desires.

She does? I don't remember this actually happening.