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Ashara and Ned match


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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

considering the Daynes cannot deliver all of Dorne and it would be difficult to get men, arms and such from Dayne lands

House Dayne, how many divisions? would say Lord Staline :D

 

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The Daynes are an ancient house, they also have the blood of the first men. They are one of the most powerful vassals of House Martell, they were a respected house. I don't think Lord Rickard would be against it, his heir was marrying the Tullys, Ned was a second son, I think he would be allowed to choose his own bride, as long as it was a respectful marriage and a good alliance.

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1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

House Dayne, how many divisions? would say Lord Staline :D

 

They can probably field a pretty decent force, but they can't very well march through Dorne and the Reach if those two realms are aligned against the NRS. And it would be risky to travel by sea if the Redwyne fleet is prowling the coast.

13 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

The Daynes are an ancient house, they also have the blood of the first men. They are one of the most powerful vassals of House Martell, they were a respected house. I don't think Lord Rickard would be against it, his heir was marrying the Tullys, Ned was a second son, I think he would be allowed to choose his own bride, as long as it was a respectful marriage and a good alliance.

This is what I mean by it being an OK move in terms of status, but as a practical matter it doesn't benefit the North a great deal. The Daynes are not likely to defy the Martells if things got hostile between Sunspear and Winterfell, and any Dayne force would be effectively cut off from a Stark-Tully-Baratheon army. The North, Riverlands and Stormlands form a contiguous bloc, however, so their armies can link up.

Politically, it would make more sense for Rickard to marry Ned to one of his own vassal houses or one in the Riverlands or the Vale.

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9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Another scenario; Rhaegar annuls his marriage to Elia and takes the young and beautiful wolf maid as his new wife. Ned, his goodbrother, marries to Ashara of House Dayne, an old and powerful house from Dorne to give a message to the Martells, "deal with it or else". Stannis was married to Selyse, a Florent with a similar purpose, to keep the Tyrells checked.

How does he obtain an annulment?  Even if Elia can't conceive (we don't know), they still have two chidren, so I doubt that would be sufficient.  And this is assuming that the Starks would go along with this plan and the resulting family and political turmoil.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

They can probably field a pretty decent force, but they can't very well march through Dorne and the Reach if those two realms are aligned against the NRS. And it would be risky to travel by sea if the Redwyne fleet is prowling the coast.

This is what I mean by it being an OK move in terms of status, but as a practical matter it doesn't benefit the North a great deal. The Daynes are not likely to defy the Martells if things got hostile between Sunspear and Winterfell, and any Dayne force would be effectively cut off from a Stark-Tully-Baratheon army. The North, Riverlands and Stormlands form a contiguous bloc, however, so their armies can link up.

Politically, it would make more sense for Rickard to marry Ned to one of his own vassal houses or one in the Riverlands or the Vale.

This depends on whether you are looking at it from a hard power or soft power viewpoint.  From a hard power (military power) viewpoint, it isn't that great a match.  But Rickard already has the North, and would have the Riverlands through Brandon's marriage with Catelyn, and the Stormlands, which Lyanna and Robert.  If he can't win, or hold his own, with that, he probably shouldn't be in the field in the first place.

The soft power view relates to influence at court.  Given Ashara's connections too the KG and the future queen, the marriage could provide the Starks with an inside track at Court, which could be quite valuable.  It all really depends on how respected and infouential the Daynes are at this time, and we don't really know that.

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18 hours ago, Nevets said:

This depends on whether you are looking at it from a hard power or soft power viewpoint.  From a hard power (military power) viewpoint, it isn't that great a match.  But Rickard already has the North, and would have the Riverlands through Brandon's marriage with Catelyn, and the Stormlands, which Lyanna and Robert.  If he can't win, or hold his own, with that, he probably shouldn't be in the field in the first place.

The soft power view relates to influence at court.  Given Ashara's connections too the KG and the future queen, the marriage could provide the Starks with an inside track at Court, which could be quite valuable.  It all really depends on how respected and infouential the Daynes are at this time, and we don't really know that.

Sure, that's what I meant by status-wise it would be a good match. But once Ashara is married, would she continue as Lady in Waiting? It would seem that a newly married noblewoman's first duty would be to produce heirs for hew new lord, not playing mistress to the queen.

I believe Joanna was removed as Rhaella's LiW shortly after her marriage to Tywin, but not because she was now married but because she was still carrying on with Aerys. And in any event, Tywin was still Hand, so they both had positions at court. That wouldn't be the case with Ned and Ashara.

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Could a Eddard/Ashard match act as a foundation to splinter Dornish support for the Targs?

I'm thinking no because the Daynes seems pretty ride-or-die with the Martells but I'm very unsure of how they could react to the prince kidnapping their new sister-in-law.

Let me know what you think?

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36 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Could a Eddard/Ashard match act as a foundation to splinter Dornish support for the Targs?

I'm thinking no because the Daynes seems pretty ride-or-die with the Martells but I'm very unsure of how they could react to the prince kidnapping their new sister-in-law.

Let me know what you think?

Doubtful, and not practical at all. Starfall would be isolated by both land and sea, which means there is no way to get support to the Daynes, and no way for the Daynes to support the North-Rlands-Slands bloc. I'm not sure if a sister-in-law is enough to risk your entire house.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Doubtful, and not practical at all. Starfall would be isolated by both land and sea, which means there is no way to get support to the Daynes, and no way for the Daynes to support the North-Rlands-Slands bloc. 

Yeah, wrong side of Drone for support by ship from the Stormland to seem reasonable. If Rickard wanted to divide Drone then a marriage-alliance with Yronwood and the other stoney Dornish would be the way to go I suppose.

Guess that is another point to the "Rickard wouldn't allow/approve of Ned/ashara." side.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/30/2018 at 10:26 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Look at the Stark family tree and you'll see they haven't married to any LP houses until Cat, but there are plenty of marriages to powerful and prestigious First Men houses, most of them even former kings, and the Daynes are just that, a powerful and prestigious First Men house who were kings once.

The Daynes are very distant to the Starks both geographically and socially. How could the Starks cooperate and gain anything form House Dayne and vice versa. 

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On 5/24/2018 at 10:16 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

The Daynes are very distant to the Starks both geographically and socially. How could the Starks cooperate and gain anything form House Dayne and vice versa. 

It's not just military power.

Arthur is the sword of the morning, a KG and one of Rhaegar's bestest buddies. Ashara was a former lady-in-wait for the future queen. You are getting a ton of prestige and connections and political clout through relation to them.

In the special case of Daynes, Rickard also has a chance to get a new offshoot branch with much power of it's own since Arthur is KG and Lord Dayne, Edric's father, had no heirs for a long time, Ashara is heir apparent. Ned a second son may very well be a great lord through his wife. They would keep the name Dayne living of course, but could also honor the Stark name since it is the more prestigious one.

And again, bringing the name Dayne into your grandchildren's pedigree is also no small deal. Think of Jeyne Westerlig; On her own, she is a pretty lady coming from an old house, however impoverished, a house that were once kings and provided brides for the previous kingly house. Kevan, who has no lands of his own refused her hand for Lancel because of her mother was from an upstart family that bought her way into nobility, and very recently at that.

 

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I agree with those who say the match is unlikely to have ever come up organically. Given this was an era where the Lords Paramount were making dynamic matches for their sons and daughters, I doubt Rickard would have wasted his spare on a Dornish vassal family. There really just isn't anything to get out of it. It is much more likely than Rickard would have picked a wife from the Vale for Ned, probably arranged with Jon Arryn's assistance.

Ashara's parents were probably hoping she'd make a good match at court from her position as Elia's lady-in-waiting... perhaps not realising that Rhaegar would end up staying on Dragonstone most of the time. So, odds are on, Ashara would have married another vassal in Dorne or the Stormlands.

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@Corvo the Crow You make some good point but those benefits would only really matter during peacetime under a Targ regime. If Rickard was fine with a humbled Targ ruler then sure it might be a good fit but he suspected that war was coming, leaving your spare alone in Drone or KL is not gonna turn out great.

34 minutes ago, Faera said:

I agree with those who say the match is unlikely to have ever come up organically. Given this was an era where the Lords Paramount were making dynamic matches for their sons and daughters, I doubt Rickard would have wasted his spare on a Dornish vassal family. There really just isn't anything to get out of it. It is much more likely than Rickard would have picked a wife from the Vale for Ned, probably arranged with Jon Arryn's assistance.

Any Dornish match (except IMHO maybe a Yronwood one) would not have resulted in a lot of military gains for the Starks. You're right about that but would a Vale match really have been that much better? Arryn seems very down-to-clown with whatever the Lords Paramounts was planning and marrying into a Targ-loyalist family might swing em or it could result in Ned getting nabbed.

If Rickard was going for matches outside then I see some options:

Ned-Cersei, Tywin seems dead-set on making Cersei a queen but that must have seemed pretty unlikely at the time. Maybe a health scare or something could push him to ensure that Tyrion won't inherit the Rock.

Ned-Frey, I don't know what kind of rep Walder had before he became the Late Lord Frey but securing passage by the Twins is a pretty big deal for the North.

Ned-Hightower, considering that the Hightowers are seen by some here on the board as pretty much the second Great House of the Reach swinging them to the side of Southron Ambition could cripple the Tyrells' ability support the Targs during a war.

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2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

@Corvo the Crow You make some good point but those benefits would only really matter during peacetime under a Targ regime. If Rickard was fine with a humbled Targ ruler then sure it might be a good fit but he suspected that war was coming, leaving your spare alone in Drone or KL is not gonna turn out great.

Any Dornish match (except IMHO maybe a Yronwood one) would not have resulted in a lot of military gains for the Starks. You're right about that but would a Vale match really have been that much better? Arryn seems very down-to-clown with whatever the Lords Paramounts was planning and marrying into a Targ-loyalist family might swing em or it could result in Ned getting nabbed.

If Rickard was going for matches outside then I see some options:

Ned-Cersei, Tywin seems dead-set on making Cersei a queen but that must have seemed pretty unlikely at the time. Maybe a health scare or something could push him to ensure that Tyrion won't inherit the Rock.

Ned-Frey, I don't know what kind of rep Walder had before he became the Late Lord Frey but securing passage by the Twins is a pretty big deal for the North.

Ned-Hightower, considering that the Hightowers are seen by some here on the board as pretty much the second Great House of the Reach swinging them to the side of Southron Ambition could cripple the Tyrells' ability support the Targs during a war.

Even more reason to go for a marriage with Daynes, or any powerful Dornish family.

Future queen is a Martell and not just any Martell but sister to the ruling lord, so you can count on the Martells for aiding the Targs. Getting one of their vassals would not only reduce their numbers and add to yours, but also give them trouble to deal with at homefront, giving also time to you by tying Martells hand; Daynes don't have power to take on the rest of Dorne, so they wouldn't be able to attack but they are still one of the more powerful houses there so Martells can't just leave them and go north to aid Aerys.

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39 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Future queen is a Martell and not just any Martell but sister to the ruling lord, so you can count on the Martells for aiding the Targs. Getting one of their vassals would not only reduce their numbers and add to yours, but also give them trouble to deal with at homefront, giving also time to you by tying Martells hand

Yes you are right about all this.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Daynes don't have power to take on the rest of Dorne, so they wouldn't be able to attack but they are still one of the more powerful houses there so Martells can't just leave them and go north to aid Aerys.

(Assuming the Daynes would side with the rebels in the first place) Would the Daynes really be able to resist the Martells for any meaningful amount of time? The Daynes are prestigious but do we know anything about their levies?

Another problem would be getting any relief to the besieged southernmost part of the rebellion. Seems like harassing invaders is a Dornish speciality. Smells like a suicide mission for House Dayne to me.

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2 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Why could not Ned just marry someone from the North? Does Ned need or deserve to be a lord in his own right? Most sons of Westerosi lords never become lords themselfes. 

It's only because they do not have the means. Westeros has primogeniture succession. Younger sons do get landed once an oppurtunity arises like Karstarks or Garlan Tyrell or Flints.

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2 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Yes you are right about all this.

(Assuming the Daynes would side with the rebels in the first place) Would the Daynes really be able to resist the Martells for any meaningful amount of time? The Daynes are prestigious but do we know anything about their levies?

Another problem would be getting any relief to the besieged southernmost part of the rebellion. Seems like harassing invaders is a Dornish speciality. Smells like a suicide mission for House Dayne to me.

Their land is located on/near mountains and Starfall castle is on an island so they can hold on to their lands I guess.

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5 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Why could not Ned just marry someone from the North?

 

that doesn't seem to have been something Lord Rickard cared about. If he intended Ned for a Northern match wouldn't he have made it by the time the rebellion got rolling?

6 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Does Ned need or deserve to be a lord in his own right?

If Rickard could secure a lordship for Ned why wouldn't he want it for his son? It'd strengthen House Stark for the foreseeable future and Ned wouldn't have to just bum-around WF.

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Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Their land is located on/near mountains and Starfall castle is on an island so they can hold on to their lands I guess.

That makes the case for Dayne rebelling slightly better but, seems like they have very tight bonds to House Martell.

Aerys would have to do something to the Martells and/or Daynes for them to reasonably turn rebell. 

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2 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

 

that doesn't seem to have been something Lord Rickard cared about. If he intended Ned for a Northern match wouldn't he have made it by the time the rebellion got rolling?

We don't know what Rickard planned for Eddard.

2 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

If Rickard could secure a lordship for Ned why wouldn't he want it for his son? It'd strengthen House Stark for the foreseeable future and Ned wouldn't have to just bum-around WF.

All feudal social climbers are interested in furthering their own power that is right. But few extra sons of lords ever become lords in cases that do not involve their own brothers dieing. Tywin's brothers did not get their own lordships. Few Targaryens got their own lordships. Same goes for other great houses like Hightower, Tyrell, Frey. It is rare.

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