Feminism -- A continuing discussion

[Xray the Enforcer]

Continuing from the last discussion. 

But first:

Some Rules For The Thread

This is a thread to discuss issues pertaining to feminism. We expect thread participants to have a basic grip on reality and at least a shred of empathy, no matter what their socioeconomic background, gender identity, religion, national origin, etc. etc.

1. If you're here to proclaim that feminism is no longer needed -- don't bother wasting your time or ours. Your posts will be deleted and, if you're an especial pest, you might have your posting privileges revoked.  

2. If you're here to claim that feminism means we hate men/think women are superior -- see point #1. 

3. This thread may contain some terminology which can seem somewhat alien. If this is the case, try googling it and go for what looks like reputable sources, like for example http://www.understandingprejudice.org/. If you're still unclear on what something means, feel free to ask for clarification here.

4. Yes, men can read and participate in this thread. Two points of order on that, though:

If the mods feel that men are taking up all of the air in the room, they may step in to rectify that situation.

Also, please keep in mind that, for many women, the issues we discuss here are LIVED EXPERIENCES. Topics like rape/sexual assault, sexual harassment, devaluation in the workplace, etc. are not just thought experiments to litigate on the internet -- they're things that the women of this thread have experienced personally. Comport yourself accordingly and with empathy, or you risk having your posts deleted and your posting privileges revoked.

5. TERFs and SWERFs are not welcome here. 

[Theda Baratheon]

I just googled feminist discussion on incels to see what type of stuff was coming up and first thing I found was this: 

the replies aren’t as hideous as some of the incel stuff but they’re also just showing an absolute wilful ignorance and refusal to accept any other point of view other than their own. They don’t want the world to be a better place because they don’t think it can be - their view point is so toxic and bleak that it makes me feel anxious that more and more incel attacks are going to happen predominantly attacking women because all they know is rage and hatred and denial of reality.

[lessthanluke]

I'd literally never heard of Incel before your post the other day Theda. What the fuck is wrong with peopple

[TrueMetis]

What is a chad?

[brook]

12 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

What is a chad?

Any man that women might show an interest in.

I have nfi what “hunter eyes” are though

[Theda Baratheon]

56 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

I'd literally never heard of Incel before your post the other day Theda. What the fuck is wrong with peopple

Horrid stuff  It was easy to laugh at th m for awhile but some of the content was just too horrific to keep up with. 

21 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

What is a chad?

A bloke who is seen as having “won the genetic lottery” by being “conventionally attractive” the thing is these incels enforce beauty standards more than most people which makes them feel even more miserable...

[brook]

I think one thing that is really important to understand about incels is the thing about not being able to get laid... for the most part it’s not actually true (at least not in the way people think).

A lot of these guys aren’t actually ugly, let alone so hideous that no girl would look at them. Read enough of their bullshit and it becomes very clear the problem isn’t that at all. They don’t want a girl, they want one that meets every aspect of their physical ideal AND who must be a virgin AND they want her to appear out of nowhere and offer herself to them without them needing to do a thing.

[Theda Baratheon]

13 minutes ago, brook said:

I think one thing that is really important to understand about incels is the thing about not being able to get laid... for the most part it’s not actually true (at least not in the way people think).

A lot of these guys aren’t actually ugly, let alone so hideous that no girl would look at them. Read enough of their bullshit and it becomes very clear the problem isn’t that at all. They don’t want a girl, they want one that meets every aspect of their physical ideal AND who must be a virgin AND they want her to appear out of nowhere and offer herself to them without them needing to do a thing.

That’s the thing! They’re not all guys who are conventionally unnattractive and even then not everyone’s is into conventional attractiveness anyway. I think a lot of these guys were misogynists just looking for a place to validate their hideous beliefs and they make THEMSELVES more miserable by pointing out all their physical flaws and implying each other is ugly so they must stick together and hate together.

They don’t want a nice normal girl to say hey wanna hang out and that’s why so many lonely dudes DONT turn to the incel community because it isn’t an INEVITABLE place for them to end up. 

A lot of the rhetoric that incels spout borders paedophilia and certainly emotional and mental abuse (as well as physical) 

they want women who have never slept with anyone before, thus aren’t ‘tainted’ by another man (honestly I think incels hate men way more than feminists who are accused of hating men actually do) but they don’t want her to be too old because she might have lost her ‘youthful beauty’ and that’s another thing that people aren’t often bringing up in the wake of these incel discussions ...they want physically beautiful women; conventionally perfect looking young women (who obviously work hard and put a lot more effort into their appearance than incels) and they also want women who are YOUNG because they’re easier to manipulate. 

Their ideal woman isn’t even a woman, they want a beautiful girl child who they can manipulate. 

This is what irks me about the people who would say that incels don’t want that...it’s like...you’ve spent enough time in the community to know that is a popular desire and if you don’t agree why the hell are you still there.

i think the longer these online communities go the more toxic they are going to become and the more angry, hopeless and nihilistic these men will become and that’s a terrifying thought.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don’t know if these links will work but these are the first few posts I found when I checked a popular anti-incel Facebook group 

CONTENT WARNING: 

rape and violence against women 

https://ibb.co/jnMK3n
https://ibb.co/i80COn
https://ibb.co/dH6V9S
https://ibb.co/ntKiUS

PLEASE DONT CLICK if you aren’t feeling up to seeing some seriously nasty stuff  

this thing SCARES me. And only emphasises my theory that these men were genuine misogynists before. They aren’t just downtrodden down on your luck dudes, they HATE women. 

[Theda Baratheon]

Also the last two hideous posts are by someone who claims to be 50 years old...again. A misogynist who wasn’t just looking and waiting for a violent toxic space to legitimately hate women in. 

[Maithanet]

54 minutes ago, brook said:

I think one thing that is really important to understand about incels is the thing about not being able to get laid... for the most part it’s not actually true (at least not in the way people think).

A lot of these guys aren’t actually ugly, let alone so hideous that no girl would look at them. Read enough of their bullshit and it becomes very clear the problem isn’t that at all. They don’t want a girl, they want one that meets every aspect of their physical ideal AND who must be a virgin AND they want her to appear out of nowhere and offer herself to them without them needing to do a thing.

In high school I was very shy and also put a ton of pressure on myself to get a girlfriend, which is obviously a bad combination.  But I always turned that inward - what am I doing wrong? Why am I so terrible at this?* 

I never, NEVER entertained the idea that the world or women owed me anything.  And that's what the incel group IMO really comes down to - entitlement.  The idea that if you aren't getting something you want, the problem is the world, not with you.  Instead of changing your behavior, you should be angry about it and find a group of men who are similarly angry and build a lifestyle around that.  It's so completely backward, like agreeing to sit on the sidelines of your own life and complain, rather than actually trying to solve your own problems. 

* Not that this was super healthy, but that's a separate issue and mostly went away as I got older. 

[JGP]

1 hour ago, brook said:

I think one thing that is really important to understand about incels is the thing about not being able to get laid... for the most part it’s not actually true (at least not in the way people think).

A lot of these guys aren’t actually ugly, let alone so hideous that no girl would look at them. Read enough of their bullshit and it becomes very clear the problem isn’t that at all. They don’t want a girl, they want one that meets every aspect of their physical ideal AND who must be a virgin AND they want her to appear out of nowhere and offer herself to them without them needing to do a thing.

Yeah and it's strange, you know? Last night while poking around something sparked a memory about a show I watched, or interview: basically, In Japan it's becoming increasingly common for men [and women] to choose not to date for many reasons, work demands, finances and so on, and the birthrate there is continuously dropping. IIRC, they were interviewing guys who were having sim relationships with their nintendos or something. Anyway. Did some googling and there doesn't seem to be a correlating uptick of incel verbal abuse/violence so it made me wonder if lack of agency is a large part in where the violent fantasies comes from. 

i. a young boy bullied by other boys: is usually physical but not always. Said youth fights back or takes it. Both help shape him, and from a developmental point of view I don't imagine one route is fundamentally better than the other

ii. a young boy bullied by girls: is usually verbal but not always. I have a hard time imagining this is common, but I don't know. Said youth... doesn't fight back? Most don't [? speculation] but is being bullied by a girl intrinsically worse than being bullied by another boy? Depending upon 'masculine' role models, I'd say the answer to both is that its likely

Children and adolescents are pretty casual with their rejection/exclusion of others, so in either case, young boy's social circle has tightened considerably. If parental figures don't notice the withdrawal, or dig down to the cause of it instead of the handwaved explanations, young boy's feelings of isolation and powerless deepen. He didn't ask to be born. Didn't ask to be born like this. 

Is this why incels revile Chads and Stacys so? When there's no choice other than the personal consequence of circumstance, it's, what... injustice?

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

A bloke who is seen as having “won the genetic lottery” by being “conventionally attractive” the thing is these incels enforce beauty standards more than most people which makes them feel even more miserable...

 

2 hours ago, brook said:

Any man that women might show an interest in.

Gotta say this being a term feels kind of weird considering that's my name.

 

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I don’t know if these links will work but these are the first few posts I found when I checked a popular anti-incel Facebook group 

CONTENT WARNING: 

rape and violence against women 

https://ibb.co/jnMK3n
https://ibb.co/i80COn
https://ibb.co/dH6V9S
https://ibb.co/ntKiUS

PLEASE DONT CLICK if you aren’t feeling up to seeing some seriously nasty stuff  

this thing SCARES me. And only emphasises my theory that these men were genuine misogynists before. They aren’t just downtrodden down on your luck dudes, they HATE women. 

Jesus fuck.

[karaddin]

19 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

 

Gotta say this being a term feels kind of weird considering that's my name.

The best part of the Chad thing is when they go on a rant on dating apps when they don't get the response they want, and abuse the woman about how she'll put out for Chad forgetting that... She's going to have no fucking idea what they are on about. I mean, it's disturbing as hell, but I can't help laughing at how ridiculous it is.

And its definitely an entitlement issue, but I don't feel that even captures the breadth of it. The world owes them their dream girl without any effort, which means that not only do they not put in effort, but that any "success" of any kind which is obtained through actual effort doesn't even count. Which is one of the things that just locks them even further into the headspace, because anything which could actually improve their situation is actively rejected.

[Maithanet]

 

Quote

 

Lloyd Dobler: I got a question. If you guys know so much about women, how come you're here at like the Gas 'n' Sip on a Saturday night completely alone drinking beers with no women anywhere?

Joe: By choice, man.

 

It's like some people thought that line wasn't a joke, but instead a viable path for the rest of your life. 

[mankytoes]

4 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

the replies aren’t as hideous as some of the incel stuff but they’re also just showing an absolute wilful ignorance and refusal to accept any other point of view other than their own. They don’t want the world to be a better place because they don’t think it can be - their view point is so toxic and bleak that it makes me feel anxious that more and more incel attacks are going to happen predominantly attacking women because all they know is rage and hatred and denial of reality.

I know this isn't funny, but I have to admit, I laughed at "hunter eyes". Sorry about derailing your discussion before- it wasn't my intention. 

The thing you wrote about how they want idealistic women- I have actually put that to them before, and they basically accepted that, they didn't deny it. That's kind of the difference between them and the nasty anti-feminists. Anti-feminists are saying they want the world to change in a certain way, to revert to old gender models. But incels don't generally seem to have a real goal, a real vision of the society they want (just some fucked up fantasies). That's why it is so nihilistic, they aren't saying they can save society, they're saying society is inherently fucked, at least for people like them. 

It's very hard to persuade anyone on this kind of issue, because everyone feels their conclusions have been created by their own experiences. It's like, if you go out depressed, you feel like everyone hates you, or is mocking you. You go out happy, and you feel like everyone is friendly, enjoying themselves. I think we all need to realise our experiences are still subjective, they're just an interpretation of the world. 

I did tell these guys- I was like you, in that I was a virgin quite late, at least for my society and peer group, and it was upsetting to me, but I met a girl, and we liked each other, and we have a nice relationship. And they just didn't believe that, either I was lying, or she was cheating on me, or manipulating me. That is quite an feat of delusion, to feel that such a regular story is beyond the realms of possibility. Even if they are honestly engaging with you, which is not usual, their starting assumptions are so alien, it's very hard to have a proper dialogue. 

2 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

ii. a young boy bullied by girls: is usually verbal but not always. I have a hard time imagining this is common, but I don't know. Said youth... doesn't fight back? Most don't [? speculation] but is being bullied by a girl intrinsically worse than being bullied by another boy? Depending upon 'masculine' role models, I'd say the answer to both is that its likely

To me, yes. I was probably bullied ten times more by boys than girls, but the girl ones I remember. I remember a girl kicking me in the balls for no reason to laugh at me, I remember a girl trying to pull my pants down to humiliate me. I got hit way more times by guys, and the "pantsing" thing was a full on phase at my school, but when girls did it, it felt different, and it was treated differently by others. I think that's a feminist issue.

[Darth Richard II]

3 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

 

Gotta say this being a term feels kind of weird considering that's my name.

 

Jesus fuck.

Yes. Jesus Fuck is a good reply. I'm still just beyond disgusted to really put my feelings into words.

 

4 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Also the last two hideous posts are by someone who claims to be 50 years old...again. A misogynist who wasn’t just looking and waiting for a violent toxic space to legitimately hate women in. 

Yeah its like finding out your crazy neighbor not only belongs to a cult that believes the same shit but is also the leader and its a very successful cult.

7 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Continuing from the last discussion. 

But first:

 

5. TERFs and SWERFs are not welcome here. 

I'm afraid to ask...what are these?

[Theda Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yes. Jesus Fuck is a good reply. I'm still just beyond disgusted to really put my feelings into words.

 

Yeah its like finding out your crazy neighbor not only belongs to a cult that believes the same shit but is also the leader and its a very successful cult.

I'm afraid to ask...what are these?

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist 

Sex Work Exclusionary Radical Feminist ??

the former obviously is anti-trans - horrid dehumanising and violent in their persecution of trans women 

and I don’t know as much about swerfs but I’m assuming they don’t value sex work and sex workers 

actually because I don’t know as much about that...I am going to google

[Xray the Enforcer]

TERF = trans-exclusionary radical feminist. Basically, jerks who do not recognize that gender is not always dictated by a person's genitals and therefore seek to exclude transwomen from feminist circles.

SWERF = Sex-worker exclusionary radical feminist. Basically, jerks who treat sex workers like shit and exclude them from feminist circles.

[Darth Richard II]

 

I actually know a bunch of trans people cause of various reasons, so I have no time for any anti trans bullshit.