Feminism -- A continuing discussion

[mankytoes]

4 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I hear you.  

Totally.  I work with a bunch of men and last year's group was really terrible - racism was pretty easy to call out but calling out sexism or misogyny definitely mostly ended in me getting ridiculed.  I could have done a lot better.  So much harder to call out in real life than online for me and it shouldn't be as intimidating as it is.

It's definitely true that it's kind of socially acceptable to be pretty earnest about racism, but if you do the same about sexism people roll their eyes (at least where I am from). 

I like working in a female dominated space. It's interesting how the demographic change makes people act differently. Most of the jokes are aimed at us, but it's good natured. I find women more forgiving of men than they are of other women.

I think you've got to think about how people will actually change an opinion, people don't like being lectured or called names. I remember someone was saying how the Trump "pussy grabbing" thing was overblown, and I just replied "I dunno, I wouldn't want someone acting like that around my girlfriend or sister". I think he kind of had to concede that, because that's an appeal to his own masculine value of protecting women around him. 

I did have a debate with my football team about slut shaming, but they just concluded I'm a slut too. Progress of sorts?

[Xray the Enforcer]

12 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Writing and reading what i just wrote makes commenting on the 'burdens' of speaking up feel to me like I'm whining. 

Being cognizant of the fact that it's a burden, and yet also being cognizant that your burden is not has heavy as others, just demonstrates that you're an ally. Too many people stop at "it's uncomfortable" without making the next step. 

[Darth Richard II]

I'm lucky I think, in that all my guy friends have about as much tolerance for misogynist shit as I do. There was a member of our friend group once that used to spout some of the MRA shit but he was kicked out pretty quick, and frankly, turned out to be a terrible person, so.

[karaddin]

On the relative difficulty of calling out racism vs sexism - I wouldn't say Australia is more or less racist than the US, however the racism is different. America is very aware of the existence of racial dynamics and tensions in society, regardless of where an individual stands on them. Australia on the other hand likes to go for pretending we aren't racist and refusing to see that its a problem, we're the "land of a fair go" or so we like to claim, even as we're enacting bipartisan policies that amount of "White Australia 2.0".

That said we also like to be quite blind to sexism, I think it's my personal circumstances/history that make that easier to call out - I've been on both sides of the fence, so even if someone doesn't accept I'm right they're not so thrown that I'm bringing it up as a potential issue. And a bit of harmless* sexism is part of the Aussie larrikin spirit, along with friendly** ribbing, so its again more acceptable to be talking about it.

None of which makes it any less important to be calling out the racism I see, quite the opposite in fact. But its just as important to do it right, people don't tend to learn when they get defensive.

*Not actually harmless

**Friendliness to be determined

[Theda Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Triskele said:

There's a pretty legit takedown of some of these recent Incel pieces here.

Great point about how women who can't have sex don't react the way these guys do.

YES. I agree 100% with this article and it sums up nicely why I've been geting so agitated with a lot of the media surrounding incels recently. Written by people who really dont have a clue. 

I HATE the idea that sex workers should be used to placate violent men and I see it ALL THE TIME. In various different circumstances there' this legit image belief that sex workers should be used as some kind of placating tool or that they should deal with sexual violent men because "that's their job" and it's really awful - like these women aren't just human beings, performing a service for a fee. I sell dvds - I sholder be expected to sell dvds to some jerk shouting at me and chucking things around the store. Why should sex workers be expected to work with violence? I hate that. I see that sentiment all the time - women dehumanised again and again when it comes to sex.

But not only that - but the idea that we even need to appease incels like they're some angry gods we haven't left enough votive offerings to. Fuck that. 

Like the article says; most of these dudes want to have sex with someone the is incredibly attractive, like movie star levels and it' their own misogyny that often holds them back. 

Women who haven't had sex in a long time/have never had sex don't seem to act this way 

[Guy Kilmore]

On 5/2/2018 at 4:17 PM, mankytoes said:

That's a whole other level of fucked up, where have you seen this? 

I was going to write a post about this, but someone posted this in the politics thread that could explain it better than I could.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/all-american-nazis-fascist-youth-united-states-w519651

I would say this, if you are a male in our society, find time to get involved in SOME form of mentorship.  It amazes me how many boys and girls go around without some kind of positive male figure in their lives.  I think for boys, it leaves them very vulnerable to this kind of stuff.

[Deedles]

Reproductive and maternity related rights are being heavily contested at the moment in Ireland. In 1983, an amendment (the 8th) was put into the constitution to give the “Unborn” equal rights as the woman “the state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right”. 

Basically, abortion was outlawed. Subsequent amendments were passed allowing “the right to information”, the “right to travel” and controversially, termination where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of a mother.

 

However, the 8th has also been used to keep a clinically brain dead woman on life support to try and sustain a 17 week fetus (failed, horrifically). Asylum seekers with visa issues (and money issues)  have had problems. Terminations for medical reasons and in the case of fatal fetal abnormalities are problematic. Women have died during mismanagement of a miscarriage when an early termination would have saved their lives. Every weekday approx 12 women travel to the U.K. for an abortion and a further 5 take pills ordered over the internet to bring on an abortion, at home, alone and facing a penalty of 14 years imprisonment if prosecuted. 

 

Merternity care is inhibited. To protect the right to life, medical Practictioners can override a requirement for the mother to consent to treatment (recent case where health board took a woman to court to mandate a c sec when she wanted a trial of Labour to see if she could have a Vbac). 81% of the institute of gynaecologists and obstetricians voted to lift the ban. 

 

Its a tight and dirty election. Pro choicers are subject to the usual venom. A particularly lovely bunch called the “institute for bioethical reform” are protesting outside maternity hospitals with massive graphic banners (exactly what you don’t want to see if you’ve just had a d&c, or been told you miscarried, or your much wanted child has a FFA. 

 

If you can, would you consider promoting and sharing a Facebook page called “in her shoes - women of the 8th”. It’s a frankly heartbreaking page where women have told of all their maternity issues in Ireland. If you had a few bob to spare, funding is always welcome. Together for yes have merchandise you can buy. Abortion Rights Alliance and Women help Women are always in need of funds to help women travel and procure care. You can’t (I think) donate to the referendum directly but the above would be helpful. 

 

[Theda Baratheon]

20 minutes ago, Deedles said:

Reproductive and maternity related rights are being heavily contested at the moment in Ireland. In 1983, an amendment (the 8th) was put into the constitution to give the “Unborn” equal rights as the woman “the state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right”. 

Basically, abortion was outlawed. Subsequent amendments were passed allowing “the right to information”, the “right to travel” and controversially, termination where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of a mother.

 

However, the 8th has also been used to keep a clinically brain dead woman on life support to try and sustain a 17 week fetus (failed, horrifically). Asylum seekers with visa issues (and money issues)  have had problems. Terminations for medical reasons and in the case of fatal fetal abnormalities are problematic. Women have died during mismanagement of a miscarriage when an early termination would have saved their lives. Every weekday approx 12 women travel to the U.K. for an abortion and a further 5 take pills ordered over the internet to bring on an abortion, at home, alone and facing a penalty of 14 years imprisonment if prosecuted. 

 

Merternity care is inhibited. To protect the right to life, medical Practictioners can override a requirement for the mother to consent to treatment (recent case where health board took a woman to court to mandate a c sec when she wanted a trial of Labour to see if she could have a Vbac). 81% of the institute of gynaecologists and obstetricians voted to lift the ban. 

 

Its a tight and dirty election. Pro choicers are subject to the usual venom. A particularly lovely bunch called the “institute for bioethical reform” are protesting outside maternity hospitals with massive graphic banners (exactly what you don’t want to see if you’ve just had a d&c, or been told you miscarried, or your much wanted child has a FFA. 

 

If you can, would you consider promoting and sharing a Facebook page called “in her shoes - women of the 8th”. It’s a frankly heartbreaking page where women have told of all their maternity issues in Ireland. If you had a few bob to spare, funding is always welcome. Together for yes have merchandise you can buy. Abortion Rights Alliance and Women help Women are always in need of funds to help women travel and procure care. You can’t (I think) donate to the referendum directly but the above would be helpful. 

 

I've liked the page. Thank you for sharing and bringing this to my knowledge...

[mankytoes]

3 hours ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I was going to write a post about this, but someone posted this in the politics thread that could explain it better than I could.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/all-american-nazis-fascist-youth-united-states-w519651

I would say this, if you are a male in our society, find time to get involved in SOME form of mentorship.  It amazes me how many boys and girls go around without some kind of positive male figure in their lives.  I think for boys, it leaves them very vulnerable to this kind of stuff.

Oh yeah, I know nazis do this. But incels? I've never really seen them grooming. It doesn't really fit their worldview. It's almost like their unpopularity, even amongst the likes of MRAs and PUAs, is validation to them. 

Hmm, I've never even heard of that sort of thing where I live.

18 minutes ago, Deedles said:

Reproductive and maternity related rights are being heavily contested at the moment in Ireland. In 1983, an amendment (the 8th) was put into the constitution to give the “Unborn” equal rights as the woman “the state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right”. 

You must be pretty confident? The polling leads look solid- https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/abortion-poll-shows-yes-side-hold-considerable-lead-despite-slight-fall-in-support-839879.html 

And it really feels like Irish society has moved on (overall) from this awful social conservative stuff. 

The thing that really bugs me about this law is, in practise, it only applies to the poorest and most vulnerable who can't get across to Britain. 

[Guy Kilmore]

4 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Oh yeah, I know nazis do this. But incels? I've never really seen them grooming. It doesn't really fit their worldview. It's almost like their unpopularity, even amongst the likes of MRAs and PUAs, is validation to them. 

Hmm, I've never even heard of that sort of thing where I live.

You must be pretty confident? The polling leads look solid- https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/abortion-poll-shows-yes-side-hold-considerable-lead-despite-slight-fall-in-support-839879.html 

And it really feels like Irish society has moved on (overall) from this awful social conservative stuff. 

The thing that really bugs me about this law is, in practise, it only applies to the poorest and most vulnerable who can't get across to Britain. 

They all do, I just sat down to read a bunch of emails/chats a mom printed out about her son.  Incel stuff.  He is 15.  

ETA: We are way behind on this issue. It almost feels like a war is being fought over Generation Z and we don't even know where the battleground is.

[Bonnot OG]

6 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Oh yeah, I know nazis do this. But incels? I've never really seen them grooming. It doesn't really fit their worldview. It's almost like their unpopularity, even amongst the likes of MRAs and PUAs, is validation to them. 

Hmm, I've never even heard of that sort of thing where I live.

You must be pretty confident? The polling leads look solid- https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/abortion-poll-shows-yes-side-hold-considerable-lead-despite-slight-fall-in-support-839879.html 

And it really feels like Irish society has moved on (overall) from this awful social conservative stuff. 

The thing that really bugs me about this law is, in practise, it only applies to the poorest and most vulnerable who can't get across to Britain. 

Incels very much get groomed. 

Look up Roosh V. The guy is a disgusting pile of shit and after that attack in Toronto, he blamed women. The guy also promotes raping women as well. Self described pick up artists help perpetuate this bullshit as well. 

Go to Roosh V's forum Return of Kings. You'll see all those violent misogynist types in there. They were blaming women for Elliot Rodger killing 6 people in California a few years back. 

They have disgusting subreddits they also post in.

Also, movies, tv shows, music etc, also play a part in shaping this level of entitlement that men have towards women and sex. 


Also, just take a look at how some hack rag like the Daily Mail blamed the ex fiance of the Golden State Killer for becoming a serial rapist and serial killer. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5669153/Suspected-Golden-State-Killers-love-Bonnie-revealed.html

 

EXCLUSIVE- Ex-fiancee who broke suspected Golden State Killer's heart, and 'sparked his rape and murder' spree, is a travel blogger who went on to marry successful accountant and is now in hiding

• Bonnie Ueltzen broke suspected Golden State Killer Joe DeAngelo’s heart
• Ueltzen was engaged to DeAngelo in the early 1970s but she broke it off
• During one attack, the killer said to victim: ‘I hate you. I hate you, Bonnie'
• DeAngelo is believed to be responsible for at least 12 murders and more than 50 rapes in California between 1975 and 1986
• DeAngelo was nabbed after police matched DNA from items he discarded with samples found at his many crime scenes 

That is utterly disgusting, and just normal shit for society to do. Blame women for violent men. 

[Darth Richard II]

14 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

YES. I agree 100% with this article and it sums up nicely why I've been geting so agitated with a lot of the media surrounding incels recently. Written by people who really dont have a clue. 

I HATE the idea that sex workers should be used to placate violent men and I see it ALL THE TIME. In various different circumstances there' this legit image belief that sex workers should be used as some kind of placating tool or that they should deal with sexual violent men because "that's their job" and it's really awful - like these women aren't just human beings, performing a service for a fee. I sell dvds - I sholder be expected to sell dvds to some jerk shouting at me and chucking things around the store. Why should sex workers be expected to work with violence? I hate that. I see that sentiment all the time - women dehumanised again and again when it comes to sex.

But not only that - but the idea that we even need to appease incels like they're some angry gods we haven't left enough votive offerings to. Fuck that. 

Like the article says; most of these dudes want to have sex with someone the is incredibly attractive, like movie star levels and it' their own misogyny that often holds them back. 

Women who haven't had sex in a long time/have never had sex don't seem to act this way 

The idea that incels need to be placated at all is just mind blowing. That's like saying we should placate Nazi's by letting them kill a few Jews. What the actual fuck.

[Xray the Enforcer]

14 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

The idea that incels need to be placated at all is just mind blowing. That's like saying we should placate Nazi's by letting them kill a few Jews. What the actual fuck.

every shitshow needs its Appeasement.

[mankytoes]

9 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Incels very much get groomed. 

Look up Roosh V. The guy is a disgusting pile of shit and after that attack in Toronto, he blamed women. The guy also promotes raping women as well. Self described pick up artists help perpetuate this bullshit as well. 

Go to Roosh V's forum Return of Kings. You'll see all those violent misogynist types in there. They were blaming women for Elliot Rodger killing 6 people in California a few years back. 

They have disgusting subreddits they also post in.

Right, I know this stuff, I was on puahate pre Elliot Rodgers. I know they say all this stuff and it's super fucked up, I think we all agree on that.

PUA and incels are not the same thing. I feel like this is another instance of the media getting internet issues confused. They are both mysogynistic and I'm defending either, but they're clearly very different. PUA are saying you can go out and get laid, whoever you are. Just buy my book and learn. Incels are saying you probably can't get laid, unless you are genetically lucky, so you should probably kill yourself or other people or whatever. 

I'm talking specifically about grooming. Just making a horrible website that people join isn't grooming. Grooming involves directly and deliberately attracting vulnerable people to your organisation. Like when we talk about Nazis grooming, they actually go out in poor, white communities and look for white kids that look pissed off and alienated and try to lure them into their ideology. 

I'm trying to be careful with my language, because I'm conscious that people might think I'm defending these groups. What I'm trying to do is to clear up confusion on this, because you can't ever tackle an issue without properly understanding it. 

I've still seen no evidence incels are doing what would normally be considered grooming. 

[Bonnot OG]

12 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Right, I know this stuff, I was on puahate pre Elliot Rodgers. I know they say all this stuff and it's super fucked up, I think we all agree on that.

PUA and incels are not the same thing. I feel like this is another instance of the media getting internet issues confused. They are both mysogynistic and I'm defending either, but they're clearly very different. PUA are saying you can go out and get laid, whoever you are. Just buy my book and learn. Incels are saying you probably can't get laid, unless you are genetically lucky, so you should probably kill yourself or other people or whatever. 

I'm talking specifically about grooming. Just making a horrible website that people join isn't grooming. Grooming involves directly and deliberately attracting vulnerable people to your organisation. Like when we talk about Nazis grooming, they actually go out in poor, white communities and look for white kids that look pissed off and alienated and try to lure them into their ideology. 

I'm trying to be careful with my language, because I'm conscious that people might think I'm defending these groups. What I'm trying to do is to clear up confusion on this, because you can't ever tackle an issue without properly understanding it. 

I've still seen no evidence incels are doing what would normally be considered grooming. 

He hasn't just made a horrible website. He gives actual advice through writing and videos. The guy gives people tips on how to "pick up women."

And if you don't see a self described pick up guru giving out his misogynistic advice on how to pick up women as grooming, especially when it is predatory and bigoted, then IDK what to tell you.  

 

[mankytoes]

27 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

He hasn't just made a horrible website. He gives actual advice through writing and videos. The guy gives people tips on how to "pick up women."

And if you don't see a self described pick up guru giving out his misogynistic advice on how to pick up women as grooming, especially when it is predatory and bigoted, then IDK what to tell you.  

 

Right, but we're talking about incels, unless I've lost the thread here. He isn't an incel. He is, or at least he is promoting himself, as the very oppose of involuntarily celibate. The whole point is that he's voluntarily promiscuous. He might have made some horrible comments about Elliot Rodgers, but Elliot Rodgers was not a fan of his, the forum Elliot Rodgers was using was explicitly anti PUA. It was called PUAhate. The whole point was to be against people like Roosh. 

You can view both of these communities as damaging and dangerous, but if we want any chance of countering either of them we can't bunch them together. 

15 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I HATE the idea that sex workers should be used to placate violent men and I see it ALL THE TIME. In various different circumstances there' this legit image belief that sex workers should be used as some kind of placating tool or that they should deal with sexual violent men because "that's their job" and it's really awful - like these women aren't just human beings, performing a service for a fee. I sell dvds - I sholder be expected to sell dvds to some jerk shouting at me and chucking things around the store. Why should sex workers be expected to work with violence? I hate that. I see that sentiment all the time - women dehumanised again and again when it comes to sex.

Women who haven't had sex in a long time/have never had sex don't seem to act this way 

I don't really understand this argument. Prostitutes do exist, in every society ever, and are available to anyone who has the money. If they were going to solve this problem... wouldn't they have solved it? 

Of course, sex workers and sex robots are never going to solve these problems, because it goes way beyond the base human desire for sex, and into the deeper human desire to be wanted, valued and needed. 

[Darth Richard II]

edit: never mind. do not engage.

[mankytoes]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

you know Prostitution is illegal in a lot of places right?

Yes, and I also know these laws will never stop it existing. 

I'm open minded on solutions, but sex workers aren't going to save us from misogyny. I've heard sex workers say their job can feel more like therapy than anything, and I'm sure that can be true, but I don't think people with a pre-existing misogynistic attitude are going to be saved by paying for sex. In fact, I think it's likely to make attitudes worse in the long run. One, you're going to resent that you have to pay for something other guys get for free. Two, having a large amount of your female interaction being with prostitutes isn't likely to promote a progressive view of women, and three, having transactional sex isn't going to give the great validation of being desired that a healthy relationship provides. 

I do think laws should relaxed around sex work, but mainly because I think it's safer, not because it's going to cure society's ills.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

22 hours ago, Triskele said:

There's a pretty legit takedown of some of these recent Incel pieces here.

Great point about how women who can't have sex don't react the way these guys do.

I took a 20th century British Lit course awhile back, and our prof chose women authors that had been part of an ongoing recovery movement to bring back forgotten female writers. Most of the texts we read were centered around World War I to World War II, but one of my favorites was Lolly Willowes--about the spinster Laura Willowes who missed the very narrow opportunity for marriage, and by the age of thirty, she was considered too old to be courted, or out of her prime.

I point this out because we focused a lot on the spinster label applied to women in these books. Of course, in all my research and reading in this course, never did I once find reference to a violent, dangerous spinster. 

The incel thing is scary. Maybe groups of seething, angry men have always been there, but the internet really allows us the chance to see them. I just watched a short documentary on YouTube called Shy Boys. One of the incels followed was particularly disturbing in how he described his frustrations. All of the incels (though not all the men followed in the documentary were labeled as incels) seemed to have significant emotional/social issues. One of them couldn't look at a picture of a vagina without becoming uncomfortable and expressing anger. One of them changed his appearance via computer image to show what he wanted to look like if he could get plastic surgery, and the image was more than androgynous. I don't know how to help people so mixed up and angry.

Either way, we can see privilege manifesting in these differences between men and women. Men believe they are owed something. They might not even realize that's how they feel. And when privilege is denied to them, they can't comprehend it.

Anyway, Lolly Willowes had a happy ending. 

[Toth]

4 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Either way, we can see privilege manifesting in these differences between men and women. Men believe they are owed something. They might not even realize that's how they feel. And when privilege is denied to them, they can't comprehend it.

I'm not sure privilege is the right term to use here. For me it certainly seems more that a culture of Toxic Masculinity, as usual, puts men into a situation where they can't handle not fulfilling society's expectations... and end up in a spiral of contempt for everyone they deem responsible for it.

I think what scares me the most is that I see some of these factors pulling at me as well. There is this idea that if you don't get laid in your teens, there is something deeply wrong with you when you are a guy. It's treated everywhere as some kind of silly status symbol that it is something you need if you want to be considered a man. And if you are not... well, I have listened to the drunken rant of my aunt about her 'gay' grandson who didn't have a girlfriend at age 20. Or the constant nagging about it my own mother does. Despite being not really interested in sex, I feel constantly reminded that being 25 and having never had a relationship is considered shameful and something that labels me as a freak, making it forever impossible to 'catch up'. I do see that those incels live in the same society, hear the same condemnations and part of me is horrified about the possibility that if not for my immense self-worth issues that make it impossible to blame anyone other than me, I might have ended up playing the blame-game they do.

Don't get me wrong, I find reading their drivel just as nauseating as everyone else. They have put themselves into an echo-chamber of hatred in an attempt to get a boost from their self-pity. As most here have observed, I have little idea how you manage to pull them out of that once they are already in and shield themselves from reason. That there is little difference to how Nazis operate doesn't surprise me at all. Blaming and hating others to make yourself feel less miserable seems to be a very attractive coping mechanism for those who want the easy way to elevate themselves and it always works after the same rules. Then again, I see the starting point of incels in a society that worships male promiscuity while at the same time being fast at condemning you for not comforming to it. Of course, that is difficult to change... for one thing, society needs to disconnect sex from status issues, which would take away a lot of frustration. That can only change when the people who claim to define what is normal stop being stuck in the 70s or 80s. But then again, quite a lot of today's daily evils stem from that. The second and maybe even more important solution boils down to teach boys empathy and self-reflexion.

Thing is, I believe the question why women usually don't react with condemnations or violence to rejection stems from just that. I have seen my fair share of studies that show how boys tend to be socialized in way that they apply positive confirmation to their own merits and deflect negative things by blaming outside factors, while girls deflect positive confirmation to circumstances and blame themselves internally for negative things. Not because of actual reflexion, but intuitively because the discourse about their abilities by parents and teachers tends to be of such a tone. That's extremely damaging to everyone involved, but it explains why the reactions to non-conformation to society's expectations are so different: Most girls are too busy beating themselves up over it to get angry at anyone else, while boys generally are encouraged to do just that in order to protect their own standing.