Is Jon older or younger than Robb?

[Angel Eyes]

So I’m wondering about Jon Snow’s relative age to Robb. If he’s younger, why is Catelyn afraid of Ned legitimizing him? 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

Because if Ned had Jon legitimized,  Jon and anyone from his line would have a claim on WF. I believe she tells Robb this when Robb was telling her about making Jon his heir.

[Nowy Tends]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

 If he’s younger, why is Catelyn afraid of Ned legitimizing him? 

He's still older than the other Stark children. Should Robb die, Jon would come next in the succession line

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

He's still older than the other Stark children. Should Robb die, Jon would come next in the succession line

Should Robb die without leaving an heir*

[Corvo the Crow]

19 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

He's still older than the other Stark children. Should Robb die, Jon would come next in the succession line

Legitimized children comes after legit children.

[Varysblackfyre321]

23 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Because if Ned had Jon legitimized,  Jon and anyone from his line would have a claim on WF. I believe she tells Robb this when Robb was telling her about making Jon his heir.

She does-reasonble in a way but considering Robb's war was over and naming Jon his heir would have simply killed him as well I feel her arguement (although valid ), wasnt the best one to use-she should have pointed out the harm it would entail his brother

[Nowy Tends]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Should Robb die without leaving an heir*

Exact.  Well, accidents happen, especially when you're at war…

[Angel Eyes]

34 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Because if Ned had Jon legitimized,  Jon and anyone from his line would have a claim on WF. I believe she tells Robb this when Robb was telling her about making Jon his heir.

Jon’s no Daemon Blackfyre.

[Nittanian]

So Spake Martin:

Quote

What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims.

 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Jon’s no Daemon Blackfyre.

Someone froms Jon's line could be though...

[The Commentator]

I turns out that Catelyn need not worry.  Robb doesn't have the power to legitimize a bastard until after he wins his rebellion.  He lost.  Whatever his intent was, whatever he did, is no longer of any consequence.  Jon is still a bastard.

In so far as to the original question, well, there is a theory that Jon is a lot older than Ned presented him to be.  Poor Leuwin had to make an excuse that bastards grow up faster than true born children.  There is a very good chance that Jon is older than Ned claimed.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Exact.  Well, accidents happen, especially when you're at war…

Or nature may have made Robb sterile, or Westerling barren.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I turns out that Catelyn need not worry.  Robb doesn't have the power to legitimize a bastard until after he wins his rebellion.  He lost.  Whatever his intent was, whatever he did, is no longer of any consequence.  Jon is still a bastard.

In so far as to the original question, well, there is a theory that Jon is a lot older than Ned presented him to be.  Poor Leuwin had to make an excuse that bastards grow up faster than true born children.  There is a very good chance that Jon is older than Ned claimed.  

I could see the iron throne recognizing Jon if he was shown to amicable and willingly to put get Robb killed and if Sansa wasn't in there custody-barring that I would still see them sliting Jon's throne just to be safe.

[Dorian Martell's son]

23 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I could see the iron throne recognizing Jon if he was shown to amicable and willingly to put get Robb killed and if Sansa wasn't in there custody-barring that I would still see them sliting Jon's throne just to be safe.

Robb, as king legitimized Jon to the northern throne. It has no bearing on the IT 

[The Twinslayer]

The short answer is that we don't know who is older because we don't know when either child was born with any certainty.  The first big variable is when Robb was born.  Catelyn thinks that she married Ned after the Battle of the Bells and that Robb was conceived within two weeks of her wedding.  Jaime thinks the Battle of the Bells happened a few weeks before the Trident.  If that is all correct, then Robb was born 7+ months after the Sack of King's Landing.  

Catelyn may, however, be mistaken.  She believes Jon Arryn married Lysa after losing two heirs:  his nephew (who died with Brandon Stark) and his cousin (killed at the Battle of the Bells).  If Jon Arryn married Lysa after the first heir died, right at the beginning of the rebellion, then Robb may have been born before the Sack of King's Landing.  Note that I am not suggesting that Catelyn mis-remembers when she was married, just that she may mis-remember which death caused Jon Arryn to seek a new wife known to be fertile.  

As for Jon, all we know for sure is that Catelyn learned that Ned had fathered a bastard within the first year of her marriage and that Jon was present in Winterfell when she arrived there after the rebellion.  Catelyn also implies that Jon's birth took place some time after her wedding.

As far as their relative ages go, it is suggested that Jon and Robb are "of an age," whatever that means.  And Jon is 15 during the feast at Winterfell for Robert and Robb is 15 when Ned dies some months later. 

All of this suggests that the age difference between the two of them is probably less than a year.  The earliest date for Jon's birth (assuming Catelyn's suggestion that he was born after the Ned/Cat marriage) would have Jon being about 8-9 months older than Robb.  The latest date for Jon's birth would be about 3 months after Robb's (since Robb was born 9 months after the Ned/Cat wedding and Cat learned of Jon's birth less than a year after marrying Ned).  

Let me offer two additional thoughts.  If you subscribe to the R+L=J theory and believe that Jon was born at the toj some time after the Sack of King's Landing, then you can narrow the possible age difference somewhat but you still have the problem of not knowing whether the Ned/Cat marriage took place toward the beginning or toward the end of the rebellion.  You also have the problem that, if Ned and Catelyn were married at the beginning of the rebellion, and Ned discovered Jon only at the end of the rebellion, how did Catelyn learn about Jon within the first year of her marriage?  It is hard to imagine that someone sent a raven with that news.  

The second is that there is an old SSM from 1999, while GRRM was writing ASOS, that says that Jon is around 8-9 months older than Dany. That would put Jon's birth anywhere from about 2 weeks before the Sack of King's Landing to two weeks after the Sack (since we know Dany was conceived about two weeks prior to the Sack).  The problem with that SSM (if we assume it is an accurate report of something GRRM said) is that GRRM changed his mind about several things that were included in it that related to interaction bewteen Ned and Ashara.  The point of the SSM was to suggest that Ned and Ashara may have had a liason 9 months before Jon was born.  But he changed his mind about including that in ASOS (and about some other things in that SSM) so I don't think that reference to the timing of Jon's birth can be considered reliable.  Even if it is reliable, it does not help determine whether Robb or Jon is older because Robb may have been born before the Sack or as much as 7+ months later.      

      

[JaneSnow]

7 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

The short answer is that we don't know who is older because we don't know when either child was born with any certainty.  The first big variable is when Robb was born.  Catelyn thinks that she married Ned after the Battle of the Bells and that Robb was conceived within two weeks of her wedding.  Jaime thinks the Battle of the Bells happened a few weeks before the Trident.  If that is all correct, then Robb was born 7+ months after the Sack of King's Landing.  

Catelyn may, however, be mistaken.  She believes Jon Arryn married Lysa after losing two heirs:  his nephew (who died with Brandon Stark) and his cousin (killed at the Battle of the Bells).  If Jon Arryn married Lysa after the first heir died, right at the beginning of the rebellion, then Robb may have been born before the Sack of King's Landing.  Note that I am not suggesting that Catelyn mis-remembers when she was married, just that she may mis-remember which death caused Jon Arryn to seek a new wife known to be fertile.  

As for Jon, all we know for sure is that Catelyn learned that Ned had fathered a bastard within the first year of her marriage and that Jon was present in Winterfell when she arrived there after the rebellion.  Catelyn also implies that Jon's birth took place some time after her wedding.

As far as their relative ages go, it is suggested that Jon and Robb are "of an age," whatever that means.  And Jon is 15 during the feast at Winterfell for Robert and Robb is 15 when Ned dies some months later. 

All of this suggests that the age difference between the two of them is probably less than a year.  The earliest date for Jon's birth (assuming Catelyn's suggestion that he was born after the Ned/Cat marriage) would have Jon being about 8-9 months older than Robb.  The latest date for Jon's birth would be about 3 months after Robb's (since Robb was born 9 months after the Ned/Cat wedding and Cat learned of Jon's birth less than a year after marrying Ned).  

Let me offer two additional thoughts.  If you subscribe to the R+L=J theory and believe that Jon was born at the toj some time after the Sack of King's Landing, then you can narrow the possible age difference somewhat but you still have the problem of not knowing whether the Ned/Cat marriage took place toward the beginning or toward the end of the rebellion.  You also have the problem that, if Ned and Catelyn were married at the beginning of the rebellion, and Ned discovered Jon only at the end of the rebellion, how did Catelyn learn about Jon within the first year of her marriage?  It is hard to imagine that someone sent a raven with that news.  

The second is that there is an old SSM from 1999, while GRRM was writing ASOS, that says that Jon is around 8-9 months older than Dany. That would put Jon's birth anywhere from about 2 weeks before the Sack of King's Landing to two weeks after the Sack (since we know Dany was conceived about two weeks prior to the Sack).  The problem with that SSM (if we assume it is an accurate report of something GRRM said) is that GRRM changed his mind about several things that were included in it that related to interaction bewteen Ned and Ashara.  The point of the SSM was to suggest that Ned and Ashara may have had a liason 9 months before Jon was born.  But he changed his mind about including that in ASOS (and about some other things in that SSM) so I don't think that reference to the timing of Jon's birth can be considered reliable.  Even if it is reliable, it does not help determine whether Robb or Jon is older because Robb may have been born before the Sack or as much as 7+ months later.      

      

But Jon wasn't 15 at the time of the winterfell feast, he was still fourteen. And during the "that is why I read so much" speech from Tyrion on the way to the wall, Tyrion asks how old Jon is and Jon says he is fourteen. Bran confirms that both are 'of an age' with each on in her first pov chapter, Jon is confirmed to be 14 in the chapter mentioned earlier. Later on in a Jon pov he mentions his name day having passed, and after that Bran mentions Robb being currently 15 as well. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

It's implied that Ned told Jon he was born some time after Robb, so that's the case until someone can prove otherwise. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

We know Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany and we know she was conceived the night before leaving KL for DS. The night before the sack of KL. So we can accurately say Jon was born within a two week window on either side of that date. So Conceived 9 months ish prior to the sack. 

Robb was conceived the night of Cat & Ned's wedding which we know happened after the battle of the bells. 

We also know the boys are so close in age that Cat is uncertain which is older. Meaning that they can not be more than a month apart in age. As the differences in a baby at the ages they were when Cat first meets Jon at WF are far too profound to be overlooked. 

All of this points to Jon being conceived at around the same time as Robb, about three months into the rebellion. It lasted more or less a year and we know due to the SSM about Dany & Jon's births that Jon was born around the time of the sack; the ending of the war. And a pregnancy lasts 9 months so 12 subtract 9 = 3. Roughly give or take a week or two either side to allow for variations in gestation. 

I'd guess Robb is truly older by a matter of a fortnight at most. 

[Unacosamedarisa]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Jon’s no Daemon Blackfyre.

Catelyn explains it herself...

Quote

"I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

Jon being legitimised starts a splinter Stark branch that may, one day, challenge Robb's line. 

[JaneSnow]

Also since she believes Rickon and Bran to be dead and Benjen is MIA, I suppose Jon would be next in line if legitmised. I dunno if the girls would be first in line or if a legitmised bastard would be.