Yohn Royce was a fool

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be honest, I think Yohn and Ned should have married Sansa and Waymar together before Robert ever had the chance to suggest the match with Joffrey. Waymar is a third son so he would likely have moved North and entered the Starks’ service, which satisfies Ned’s wish to keep his family close. Sansa would have fallen for and married someone way better than Joffrey (and yes, Waymar was an arrogant boy but he was also brave enough to fight an Other when almost everyone else would have fled, and he never showed himself to be the psychopath that Joffrey was). Plus, even if everything still leads to the War of the Five Kings,  Waymar would have made for a good ally for Robb to have, given his fighting spirit and the fighting prowess we see of the other Royce family members in the series. Plus it means Benjen wouldn’t have died looking for him and maybe even becomes Lord Commander after the Old Bear.

Sansa as firstborn daughter of a LP should have better prospects than a third son, but then again there are Stark maids married into nobody( to our knowledge) houses.

A northman strategy to keep the pretenders from the female line weak perhaps?

[Blackfish Tully]

17 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Robar didn't ask permission to leave it seems to me, he just jumped into things.

Robar was a grown man , if he wanted to join Renly what could his father do to stop him? 

[Canon Claude]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sansa as firstborn daughter of a LP should have better prospects than a third son, but then again there are Stark maids married into nobody( to our knowledge) houses.

A northman strategy to keep the pretenders from the female line weak perhaps?

Ned doesn’t care about strategic marriages, he only married Sansa off to Joffrey because it was Robert who helped arrange it. Ned had his belly full of marriage politics when it killed off half his family. And if the Royce’s are so poor as claimed (which I dispute, given how many resources they produce), then Yohn would have been eager to marry his third son into a lord paramount’s family. Everyone wins, and maybe Robb marries Myrcella to boot.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Robar was a grown man , if he wanted to join Renly what could his father do to stop him? 

Yohn wanted to join Robb Stark from what I recall.

 

21 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Ned doesn’t care about strategic marriages, he only married Sansa off to Joffrey because it was Robert who helped arrange it. Ned had his belly full of marriage politics when it killed off half his family. And if the Royce’s are so poor as claimed (which I dispute, given how many resources they produce), then Yohn would have been eager to marry his third son into a lord paramount’s family. Everyone wins, and maybe Robb marries Myrcella to boot.

Robert was an idiot with that one. He knows what Joffrey does and having a betrothed wouldn't settle him down whatsoever. It just means he has another punching bag.

[Leonardo]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Ned doesn’t care about strategic marriages, he only married Sansa off to Joffrey because it was Robert who helped arrange it. Ned had his belly full of marriage politics when it killed off half his family. And if the Royce’s are so poor as claimed (which I dispute, given how many resources they produce), then Yohn would have been eager to marry his third son into a lord paramount’s family. Everyone wins, and maybe Robb marries Myrcella to boot.

Probably without realizing it was only these strategic marriages that saved his own skin and likely Benjen's too.

 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Robar was a grown man , if he wanted to join Renly what could his father do to stop him? 

A lot actually considering the society is a patriarchy and as head of his house he had the potential to marry him to whoever he pleased to forge alliances. His father let him hang with Renly because he saw it as fruitful; him joining the war on what may eventually be an opposing side to him was certainly not an idea his father would have allowed.

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Yohn wanted to join Robb Stark from what I recall.

 

what does that have to do with Robar? he's a grown man and he can do whatever he wants to do whether his father wants him to or not. 

 

1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

A lot actually considering the society is a patriarchy and as head of his house he had the potential to marry him to whoever he pleased to forge alliances. His father let him hang with Renly because he saw it as fruitful; him joining the war on what may eventually be an opposing side to him was certainly not an idea his father would have allowed.

Bronze Yohn can try to marry him to whoever he wants but he cannot force him to do that or anything else  (see the Blackfish) . The only power he has over Robar is that he can cut him out of the family inheritance but that is all he can really do . Robar can marry anyone he wants and join any side he wants. 

[The hairy bear]

Robar Royce joining Renly is actually a smart strategic move for the Royces. They just were trying to ensure that someone in their family was on the winning side (which at the moment seemed to be Renly's) without compromising the entire family. That way, they can expect some influence at court if Renly wins, but won't get punished if he loses. And Lysa can't complain about them breaking the Vale's neutrality because they can always claim that Robar is acting on his own.

We see other families doing this: Ser Balon Swann joins the Lannisters while his older brother and heir fought for Renly first (and then Stannis). Emmon Frey stays with the Lannisters while his family joins Robb. The Florents splitted between Renly and Stannis, etc.

 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:57 PM, Canon Claude said:

Why would he just let his two sons go away and either lose themselves to the Wall or a wasteful war? Even in peacetime, anything can happen to your heir. Yohn’s only got Andar now, and then he’ll be out of sons. People keep cautioning against big families by pointing at the Freys, but it seems like the best established families are the ones with more than one fork. The Lannisters, Tyrells, and Greyjoys are not at risk of dying out, while the Starks, Arryns, Baratheons, and Tullys are all at grave risk of being wiped out. If he isn’t planning on handing his legacy over to the lesser Royce family, Yohn could have at least kept Robar or Waymar around in case something happened to Andar, which it certainly will mark my words (maybe marry Waymar to Sansa and have him join the Stark household since Eddard is one for keeping family close).

Same as above. If you're going to call out Yohn for putting his heirs at risk, you have to do the same for Tywin, Mace and even Balon. Tywin had only one son he felt was worthy to become Lord of the Rock, and he lost him to the Kingsguard (and sent him off to battles before that.) Balon lost two sons to war and then sent a third to war as soon as he came home. It's the ironman way: you have to be a good warrior before you can be king. Meanwhile, Mace sent one son to the KG, has another leading a host and the third is a cripple and still unmarried at, what, 30 years old? But like Yohn, each of these lords have large extended families to pull from if it came to that.

Meanwhile, Ned is not a fair comparison because he never sent any of his sons into danger, although who knows what would have happened as they grew older. Robert kept his sons relatively safe as well, as did his own father before him. And Jon Arryn only managed one stillborn daughter by his first wife and Sweetrobin by his second, so you can hardly blame him for what's befallen House Arryn.

Lords cannot be seen as shielding or protecting their heirs from any and all danger. They will have to lead hosts someday, and you can't be a general unless you are a soldier first.

And while it doesn't really show up in the books, in the actual medieval world a lord had a greater chance of losing an heir to disease than combat.

[Chancho]

On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 4:20 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Waymar seems like Sansa's type: a handsome jerk.

Well, we see Waymar thru Will's eyes and he is obviously irritated with the privilege he got (and scared with bad feelings about the day in general), but that is not Waymar doing, is a whole social structure problem in Westeros... Sor Waymar looks clever with his deduction skills, he is only guilt of wanting to get to the bottom of things and not wanting to come back with no answers (Can you imagine he just gets back to say he don't know what happen...).

Get in mind that at the nights watch the commoners are able to get back at those who despise then in the "real word" to some extent, Samwell enjoys some bullying in part because he is a noble. For Waymar not acting tough around men that not respect him would be disastrous, he was on the spotting light because of the underseved nomination, there is no way we can know if Waymar was a dick just by that, i can tell he is brave and confident, but his arrogance could be a result of not leaving room for not looking in command dealing with much more experienced men (Will explicity says they laught at his expenses).

He could be just entitled as many nobles, but that was not enough to be sure.

[Trigger Warning]

It's expected that the sons of nobility will be involved in warfare, it'd be stranger if Yohn was to shield Robar from it and perhaps Yohn had little say in it anyway but if he did then why not have the second son of your house in the inner circle of a contender likely to take the Iron Throne, Robar died in extremely unexpected circumstances. 

[Barbrey Dustin]

On 5/2/2018 at 11:57 PM, Canon Claude said:

Why would he just let his two sons go away and either lose themselves to the Wall or a wasteful war? Even in peacetime, anything can happen to your heir. Yohn’s only got Andar now, and then he’ll be out of sons. People keep cautioning against big families by pointing at the Freys, but it seems like the best established families are the ones with more than one fork. The Lannisters, Tyrells, and Greyjoys are not at risk of dying out, while the Starks, Arryns, Baratheons, and Tullys are all at grave risk of being wiped out. If he isn’t planning on handing his legacy over to the lesser Royce family, Yohn could have at least kept Robar or Waymar around in case something happened to Andar, which it certainly will mark my words (maybe marry Waymar to Sansa and have him join the Stark household since Eddard is one for keeping family close).

Jon Arryn's concept of honor won't allow him to sit his sons out during war.  This is the man who called for the rebellion that killed thousands of innocents just so he can save the lives of two boys whose families offended their king.  A man like him might put more stock on honor than he values human lives.  

The royal family had good reason to keep their numbers few.  Less contention for the throne.  Too many children with feelings of entitlement only cause trouble.  They don't want too many daughters because marrying them out is a risk of giving another clan the ability to ride dragons.  The ideal is enough daughters to keep the ability alive within the family but not so many daughters that they will have to be married out.  The ruling family had to maintain the appearance of impartiality and it's hard to do that if you have many sons and daughters married off to the daughters and sons of your retainers.  But that doesn't explain the reason for the Arryns, Starks, and Tullys to keep themselves few.  Low fecundity is one probable reason.  

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

Jon Arryn's concept of honor won't allow him to sit his sons out during war.  This is the man who called for the rebellion that killed thousands of innocents just so he can save the lives of two boys whose families offended their king.  A man like him might put more stock on honor than he values human lives.  

The royal family had good reason to keep their numbers few.  Less contention for the throne.  Too many children with feelings of entitlement only cause trouble.  They don't want too many daughters because marrying them out is a risk of giving another clan the ability to ride dragons.  The ideal is enough daughters to keep the ability alive within the family but not so many daughters that they will have to be married out.  The ruling family had to maintain the appearance of impartiality and it's hard to do that if you have many sons and daughters married off to the daughters and sons of your retainers.  But that doesn't explain the reason for the Arryns, Starks, and Tullys to keep themselves few.  Low fecundity is one probable reason.  

The Arryns have trouble with fecundity, as evidenced with Jon Arryn's line. So do the Whents, whom the Tullys married into. The Targaryens are all over the place, with quite a few miscarriages, stillbirths and quite a few dead lizard stillbirths.

[Bitterblooms]

On 5/3/2018 at 5:15 AM, Stormking902 said:

Its only logical to assume over 8 thousand years + some cadet branches of house Stark remain in the North lol. 

I think this is one way in which the world building of asoiaf really suffers. It just is the way it is because of the plot, not because the world was laid out first and then the story built out of it. 

[James Steller]

2 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

I think this is one way in which the world building of asoiaf really suffers. It just is the way it is because of the plot, not because the world was laid out first and then the story built out of it. 

Agreed. Much as I love these books, I've always taken umbrage at the fact that certain houses like the Boltons, Dondarrions, Carons, Starks, Baratheons, and Tullys all have very vulnerable, small families when the Blackwoods, Pipers, Vances, Florents, Tyrells, Karstarks and other houses have a more realistic spread of cousins and extended relatives. Hell, there's literally a castle full of Freys and a city full of Lannisters!

[Kandrax]

On 4.5.2018. at 4:16 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Joffrey

What kind of father, you think Joffrey would be?

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

What kind of father, you think Joffrey would be?

A rather bad one. 

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Kandrax said:

What kind of father, you think Joffrey would be?

The kind that won't allow the cat to get the tongue of his children.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 7:32 AM, Barbrey Dustin said:

Jon Arryn's concept of honor won't allow him to sit his sons out during war.  This is the man who called for the rebellion that killed thousands of innocents just so he can save the lives of two boys whose families offended their king.  A man like him might put more stock on honor than he values human lives.  

Point of fact: Jon Arryn had no sons other than Robert. He had a stillborn daughter by his first wife Jeyne Royce and no issue from his second, Rowena Arryn.

The two heirs that died were his nephews: Elbert, who went with Brandon to King's Landing and was killed by the MK, and Denys, killed by JonCon at Stony Sept.

[GallowsKnight]

On 5/5/2018 at 9:28 AM, Chancho said:

Well, we see Waymar thru Will's eyes and he is obviously irritated with the privilege he got (and scared with bad feelings about the day in general), but that is not Waymar doing, is a whole social structure problem in Westeros... Sor Waymar looks clever with his deduction skills, he is only guilt of wanting to get to the bottom of things and not wanting to come back with no answers (Can you imagine he just gets back to say he don't know what happen...).

Get in mind that at the nights watch the commoners are able to get back at those who despise then in the "real word" to some extent, Samwell enjoys some bullying in part because he is a noble. For Waymar not acting tough around men that not respect him would be disastrous, he was on the spotting light because of the underseved nomination, there is no way we can know if Waymar was a dick just by that, i can tell he is brave and confident, but his arrogance could be a result of not leaving room for not looking in command dealing with much more experienced men (Will explicity says they laught at his expenses).

He could be just entitled as many nobles, but that was not enough to be sure.

I tend to think Waymar (and Jeor Mormont appointing him) did nothing wrong in the prologue. Waymar is a grown man and a knight. He has a lot of formal training, but no practical experience. He's the sort you groom for command material but needs to get less green. So he gets given a pretty straightforward mission with a couple of experienced rangers. No one anticipated an ancient 8000 year old horror to pick that day to blindside them.

As you say. Waymar wants to find out why the Wildlings died all of a sudden in the middle of Winter. He wants to do his job and his duty. Will and Gared both suddenly lose their nerve and he has to chide them into action. Now their gut instincts are right. But they're not in the Night's Watch just to survive another day. If something spooky is happening they need to know. 

Even some of Will's criticisms of Waymar are probably wrong given he lacks any martial education other than what Ser Alister bashed into him. He comments that Waymer is carrying too long a sword, except Waymar would know how to fight in close-quarters with it. Grappling and half-swording. He criticizes the warhorse. But it is summer, not winter. He doesn't need a Garron for the conditions and if they had to fight Wildlings him mounted on a warhorse is a combat multiplier.

Waymar actually sacrifices his life so Gared can get back to the Wall. Except instead of reporting he deserts. Making Waymar and Will's sacrfice in vain.

[Chancho]

Couldn't agree more, i was going to say just that... I would prefer Waymar over the Gared chump that lost his wits and didn't even do his job... When the others come can you imagine experienced man losing their shit like that, Westeros is fucked...