Yohn Royce was a fool

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:02 PM, GallowsKnight said:

I tend to think Waymar (and Jeor Mormont appointing him) did nothing wrong in the prologue. Waymar is a grown man and a knight. He has a lot of formal training, but no practical experience. He's the sort you groom for command material but needs to get less green. So he gets given a pretty straightforward mission with a couple of experienced rangers. No one anticipated an ancient 8000 year old horror to pick that day to blindside them.

As you say. Waymar wants to find out why the Wildlings died all of a sudden in the middle of Winter. He wants to do his job and his duty. Will and Gared both suddenly lose their nerve and he has to chide them into action. Now their gut instincts are right. But they're not in the Night's Watch just to survive another day. If something spooky is happening they need to know. 

Even some of Will's criticisms of Waymar are probably wrong given he lacks any martial education other than what Ser Alister bashed into him. He comments that Waymer is carrying too long a sword, except Waymar would know how to fight in close-quarters with it. Grappling and half-swording. He criticizes the warhorse. But it is summer, not winter. He doesn't need a Garron for the conditions and if they had to fight Wildlings him mounted on a warhorse is a combat multiplier.

Waymar actually sacrifices his life so Gared can get back to the Wall. Except instead of reporting he deserts. Making Waymar and Will's sacrfice in vain.

Will didn't sacrifice anything since he was going to go back to the Wall once the Others left, except that !Wight Waymar strangled him.

[GallowsKnight]

21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Will didn't sacrifice anything since he was going to go back to the Wall once the Others left, except that !Wight Waymar strangled him.

Ummm. I mean he sacrificed his life. He was killed by a wight. As you point out doing his duty by aiming to report back.

I'm talking about Gared who does get away (flipped in the show for some reason) and gets executed for desertion.

[Seams]

On 5/2/2018 at 11:57 PM, Canon Claude said:

Why would he just let his two sons go away and either lose themselves to the Wall or a wasteful war? Even in peacetime, anything can happen to your heir. Yohn’s only got Andar now, and then he’ll be out of sons. People keep cautioning against big families by pointing at the Freys, but it seems like the best established families are the ones with more than one fork. The Lannisters, Tyrells, and Greyjoys are not at risk of dying out, while the Starks, Arryns, Baratheons, and Tullys are all at grave risk of being wiped out. If he isn’t planning on handing his legacy over to the lesser Royce family, Yohn could have at least kept Robar or Waymar around in case something happened to Andar, which it certainly will mark my words (maybe marry Waymar to Sansa and have him join the Stark household since Eddard is one for keeping family close).

House Royce is somehow a keystone to this whole game of thrones. When you go back and read the history of House Royce, they are at every major turning point in history and have married into major families at key junctures. If the name "Royce" is a literary way of hiding the word "Roi," the French word for "king," I believe that a Royce is somehow necessary to identify the true king - ambitious people want a "Royce / Roi" on their team; a Royce choosing to be on your team is a sign that you are legitimate.

Unfortunately, I think the Royce needs to die in order to confer power on someone - the First Men lost to the Andals when Bronze King Robar II died. Rhea Royce was the wife of Daemon Targaryen. When she died, Daemon was freed up to seduce his niece and make a play to take control of the Iron Throne in the Dance of the Dragons. Perra Royce was the first wife of Walder Frey and, of course, he built a dynasty after she died. A Royce died at the storming of the Dragonpit, losing the family's Valyrian steel sword at the same time.

On the other hand, it's interesting that a Royce son dies with Brandon Stark when he goes to King's Landing to demand the release of his sister, Lyanna. Who gained power from that dead Royce?

Tywin Lannister offered a marriage between Tyrion and a Royce daughter, but was rejected.

Lord Yohn was in King Robert's hunting party (and Robar was sent to them as a messenger) when Robert was killed by the boar. This led to Joffrey ascending to the throne. Yohn Royce wants to support Robb Stark, but Lysa Arryn decides that the Vale will stay neutral. Joffrey demands that both branches of House Royce appear at court to pledge him fealty, but they do not, perhaps signaling that Joffrey was never a legitimate king.

So let's examine the deaths of Yohn's sons and see whether they fit somewhere in the pattern.

A Royce sacrifice might explain why the White Walker was so excited when it wounded Waymar Royce and drew blood: it wasn't a case of mistaking Waymar for Jon Snow; it was a recognition of Royce blood. Now the Others would have an undead Royce and the ice people could gain power.

But Robar Royce had chosen to support King Renly. Everything looked swell until the shadow killed Renly and then Ser Loras killed Ser Robar, thinking he had failed in his duties by allowing the killer to escape. Don't you know, House Tyrell gains power after Robar dies. Ser Garlan wears Renly's armor and helps to win the battle of the Blackwater. Margaery marries Joffrey and Tommen, Mace joins the Small Council and Ser Loras joins the kingsguard. (But Brienne also gains power, in a way, after Robar's death - the Tyrell ascendancy may be a false flag. Robar sacrifices himself for Brienne.)

So Yohn remains, and we are told that he has a son named Andar. Yohn's latest role in the story is his steadfast opposition to Petyr Baelish as Lord Protector of the Vale. If you follow tournaments and the secret language of jousting, it is interesting that a Lord Royce was defeated by a Humfrey Hardyng at the Tourney of Maidenpool years ago, but then Yohn Royce holds a melee at Runestone for the specific purpose of elevating Harrold Hardyng to a knighthood. Harry the Heir is knighted by Yohn.

Yet Baelish may steal Harry by arranging a betrothal to his daughter, "Alayne". Both Yohn Royce and Petyr Baelish recognize that Harrold Hardyng is the key to the future rule of the Vale, and he seems to be a pawn in their rivalry.

But Baelish has another card up his sleeve: if he can't win over Yohn, he will elevate another Royce. If a Royce is necessary to gain power, Baelish will create a new House Royce to be his ally, granting a hereditary seat to Nestor Royce, a member of a cadet branch of the Royce family.

Also interesting is this: Nestor Royce's savvy daughter is named Myranda, but she insists that Alayne should call her by her nickname, Randa. Lord Yohn's remaining son is named Andar. Why have a Randa and an Andar in the two Royce Houses? (Also, to complicate things, the German word for "Other" is "Ander". Not an exact match but perhaps an allusion.)

Myranda Royce seems to make a lot of chit chat as she travels down the mountain with Alayne. A discussion of breast size goes directly to the feud between House Bracken and House Blackwood, with the dispute over Missy's Teats / Barbra's Teats and the eventual Blackfyre Rebellions led by their sons, Bloodraven and Bittersteel. Instead of the village of Pennytree in the middle of the Teats, Sweetrobin Arryn seems to be the prize in the middle of Myranda and Alayne's breast comparison. Maybe we will see a Royce vs. Royce feud in the Vale, similar to the Blackwood / Bracken enmity in the Riverlands. Or maybe both Royce houses will align against House Baelish. A future tournament may provide some additional clues.

[The Sleeper]

On 5/4/2018 at 4:02 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

They are the second house of the vale due to their age, honor and prestige. 

 That is why Ser Waymar went to the wall. As a third son he had almost no chance at wealth or land holdings. At best he could hope for would be a political marriage. 

I don't recall there being a reference to the Royce's financial state. I think Waymar went to the Wall because of the Royces' status as a prominent First Men house and their adherence to tradition. Apart from that, they hung out at court and participated in the tourney with ornate armor for both sons. The prologue even made a point of how expensively outfitted Waymar was. If anything most indications would be that they are rather affluent. 

As to the Op, Yohn Royce at the start of the war had three sons and apparently already has grandchildren of marrying age. At least at the start of the war the succession was quite secure, so sending Waymar to the Wall was not a big a deal. After that, it is my impression that Robar didn't ask before he joined Renly. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Robar Royce was at court in Kings Landing, not an unusual place for the son of a prominent lord to be.  There he befriended Renly, and when shit hit the fan he left the city with Renly, and thus entered his service during the war.  This would have happened far to quickly for Yohn to do anything about even if he wanted to, but seeing how if you take magical shadow babies out of the equation, Renly was the favorite to win the thrown, I don't see why Yohn would've wanted to stop him.

As for house Royce's wealth, we know Yohn controls his own ports because LF cannot stop him from selling his excess grain through them, we also know he regularly supports the NW with gifts, and of the families mentioned to be in dept in the Vale, house Royce was not among them.  All indications are that they are at least moderately wealthy, if not more so.  They did obtain a Valyrian steal sword at once point, although they lost it during the Dance of Dragons.

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I don't recall there being a reference to the Royce's financial state. I think Waymar went to the Wall because of the Royces' status as a prominent First Men house and their adherence to tradition. Apart from that, they hung out at court and participated in the tourney with ornate armor for both sons. The prologue even made a point of how expensively outfitted Waymar was. If anything most indications would be that they are rather affluent. 

As to the Op, Yohn Royce at the start of the war had three sons and apparently already has grandchildren of marrying age. At least at the start of the war the succession was quite secure, so sending Waymar to the Wall was not a big a deal. After that, it is my impression that Robar didn't ask before he joined Renly. 

yes he was, but there was no lands or keeps for him 

[Stormking902]

More like Yohn Royce is a genius, as others have said Yohn Royce wanted to help the Starks and was working towards convincing lady Lysa to send swords and assist her family. 

What this means is house Royce becomes an enemy of the crown, so Robar Royce joins Renlys camp who is the clear cut favorite to win the war so even if Robb loses he will be able to just bend the knee to Renly and face no reprocutions of choosing the wrong side. 

 

Yohn sending his son to the wall was due to the fact he was a 3rd son and wasnt going to inherit anything so his options were marry him off to a lesser lords daughter OR send him North where in Yohn opinion there was honour to be found. Yohn is from the Vale he had no idea the nights watch was a joke he believed it do be what it was hundreds of years earlier. 

[Seams]

On 5/12/2018 at 6:34 PM, Seams said:

House Royce is somehow a keystone to this whole game of thrones. When you go back and read the history of House Royce, they are at every major turning point in history and have married into major families at key junctures. ...

Unfortunately, I think the Royce needs to die in order to confer power on someone ...

A recent thread questioned why the second shadow baby had been necessary; whether the siege at Storm's End could have been ended in a different way. The first shadow weapon had been used to kill Renly, the second was used to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose, castellan of Storm's End, a Renly loyalist and the guardian of young Edric Storm (one of Robert Baratheon's out-of-wedlock children).

I thought this was a good question so I took a closer look at Ser Cortnay to see whether I could spot any quality in him that warranted this specialized assassination. The possible answer I see brought me back to this Royce theory.

Ser Cortnay Penrose is a near anagram of "Royce Runestone" or "Runestone Sorcery" or "Nestor Royce".

The Royce sigil and seat and armor involve runes - an ancient form of writing. The Penrose sigil shows writing quills and their motto is, "Set down our deeds." (Which offers more anagram possibilities involving "stone words" and possibly "seeds".)

Ser Cortnay was very vocal about what he saw as the disloyal members of Renly's Rainbow Guard who switched their allegiance to Stannis after Renly's death. Robar Royce was a member of that guard and died wearing his rainbow cape.

Robar Royce believed Catelyn when she said that Brienne had not murdered Renly. Cortnay Penrose also says it is a lie that Brienne killed Renly, and says he has known her since she was a kid and that she adored Renly.

So the writing symbolism in the sigils, the Renly loyalty, the Rainbow Guard interest and the support for Brienne are common to both Ser Cortnay and Ser Robar. If my previous post was correct, and a would-be king needs to sacrifice a Royce in order to gain power, Ser Cortnay might be a stand-in for the Royce sacrifice needed by Stannis on his drive for power. That might explain why Royce had to die at the hand of the shadow baby.

We know that House Royce has famous ancient armor that is covered with runes. The runes are supposed to provide protection, but we know that Royces have been defeated in tournaments while wearing the armor. I suspect the famous rune armor does not provide protection against conventional weapons, but against dark magic. And the opening line of Ser Cortnay's introduction (ACoK, Chap. 42, Davos II) reads, "Ser Cortnay Penrose wore no armor." I think this foreshadows his vulnerability to the darkly magical shadow weapon that will kill him.

If the anagram is a clue, the possible parallel between Ser Cortnay and Lord Nestor is also interesting. Littlefinger gives Lord Nestor a hereditary seat, the Gates of the Moon. Stannis takes Storm's End from Ser Cortnay (it already belongs to Stannis, as the surviving Baratheon, but Cortnay possessed it as Renly's appointed castellan).

In Nestor's orbit, who would be the parallel to Edric Storm? I'm thinking it could be Alayne / Sansa, or Harry the Heir or Sweetrobin. None of the three is under Nestor's direct control, but Nestor plays a key role in allowing Littlefinger to retain custody of the Arryn heir.

Ser Robar was a guard at Renly's door when he died. Both Ser Cortnay and Lord Nestor are gatekeepers helping or hindering ambitious men.