In defense of Lady Lysa Arryn

[Lady Jowana]

I agree on most of your points but they don't really justify poisoning her husband just to please Petyr. And If she cared so much about her son why would she kill his father and put him at risk?

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Hear, hear! It's funny that Catelyn remembers him so fondly, as a good father and good ruler. She clearly saw a different side of him than poor Lysa. Well, Cat was apparently given "lord training", since Edmure came along so late, so she got to see more of the "big picture" and the politics, as well as being the favored sibling. Lysa ended up being the ditzy, boy-crazy little sister. Ironically, even Petyr never cared for her.

Yeah, just imagine if their roles switched and Cat had to marry Jon Arryn instead. I don't think she'd remember her father fondly anymore.

[Faera]

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Hear, hear! It's funny that Catelyn remembers him so fondly, as a good father and good ruler. She clearly saw a different side of him than poor Lysa. Well, Cat was apparently given "lord training", since Edmure came along so late, so she got to see more of the "big picture" and the politics, as well as being the favored sibling. Lysa ended up being the ditzy, boy-crazy little sister. Ironically, even Petyr never cared for her.

Firstly, the bolded text is pretty much the perfect description of Lysa and how I see her.

Secondly, I agree that Cat probably had some advantages in her life that Lysa never had, making it hard for her to see beyond the world of Riverrun. Ironically, she sounds like she probably was once a bit of a "Sansa" character (though lacking the social intelligence, unfortunately) in that she comes across even as an older woman as a dreamy, young girl who just wanted to be loved and to have babies and be happy... Gosh, the more I think about it the sadder I feel.

Either way, Cat also benefits from not having truly been exposed to that side of Hoster. Her being heir before Edmure was born probably gave her the mindset that she never would. Lysa, on the other hand, had to find out first-hand that their father had a warped idea of what was good for the family. Gosh, he's such a nothing character yet I really feel irritated whenever I have to think of Hoster Tully. 

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder what would have happened if 

1. He didn't give her moon tea and allowed her to carry the child to term, or
2. The moon tea proved fatal.

It's always been a point of speculation for me, how moon tea affects fecundity.

1. Everything about Hoster indicates to me that he would never have done that. In his warped mind I sure he thought he was doing Lysa a favour but he pretty much proved in his accidental poisoning of his own daughter that their family motto worked the reverse for him. He could never have stood the dishonour of his daughter having a bastard. If he had, Lysa would have been "ruined". Perhaps he would have tried to cover it up -- send the baby to live somewhere else and married her off to one of his bannermen who wasn't picky. He probably jumped at tossing her over to Jon Arryn because it's a big match and coming from a man who needs a girl who, at the very least, can get pregnant.

2. If the gods are good, the memory of what he did to Lysa would still have tormented him to the grave. Tansy was genuinely used to induce abortions in medieval times and high doses can cause a woman to miscarry. If Lysa was already over a month or more into her pregnancy, which she very well could have been, Hoster essentially induced a hemorrhage in Lysa by giving her moon tea. He's lucky he didn't kill her.

[zandru]

Just a further note in the spirit of "Mothers Day" in the US (Sunday 5/13), Lady Catelyn's disastrous decisions seem closely associated with when she's in "Mom Mode".

• Her catatonia (har!) while Bran lies in a coma.
• Seizing Tyrion on the road and taking him to Lysa's place (if only Tyrion had shut up instead of calling her out...).
• Freeing Jaime and putting all her trust in "the man without honor" after hearing of the alleged murders of Bran and Rickon.
• Killing that Frey idiot after Walder had her son murdered in front of her (incredibly, this is what some fans view as the most inexcuseable part of the Red Wedding) - too bad she didn't get Roose instead.

In many other situations, Cat's advice was good. In particular, she urged Robb to NOT send Theon to treat with his father. Perhaps she realized Theon's Daddy issues and need to prove himself an Iron Man would overwhelm any love(?) he had for House Stark.

Cat's shrewd political brain driving a vengeance-motivated Lady Stoneheart should be a very significant factor in the coming books. At last read, she was on the track of Arya; good luck with that. Thanks to Brienne's Cloussea-like sleuthing abilities, Lady Stoneheart is unlikely to catch up with Sandor Clegane. Perhaps Bran the Omniscient will find some way to communicate with her, by tree or possibly raven. (They do speak.)

[Angel Eyes]

23 minutes ago, Faera said:

Firstly, the bolded text is pretty much the perfect description of Lysa and how I see her.

Secondly, I agree that Cat probably had some advantages in her life that Lysa never had, making it hard for her to see beyond the world of Riverrun. Ironically, she sounds like she probably was once a bit of a "Sansa" character (though lacking the social intelligence, unfortunately) in that she comes across even as an older woman as a dreamy, young girl who just wanted to be loved and to have babies and be happy... Gosh, the more I think about it the sadder I feel.

Either way, Cat also benefits from not having truly been exposed to that side of Hoster. Her being heir before Edmure was born probably gave her the mindset that she never would. Lysa, on the other hand, had to find out first-hand that their father had a warped idea of what was good for the family. Gosh, he's such a nothing character yet I really feel irritated whenever I have to think of Hoster Tully. 

1. Everything about Hoster indicates to me that he would never have done that. In his warped mind I sure he thought he was doing Lysa a favour but he pretty much proved in his accidental poisoning of his own daughter that their family motto worked the reverse for him. He could never have stood the dishonour of his daughter having a bastard. If he had, Lysa would have been "ruined". Perhaps he would have tried to cover it up -- send the baby to live somewhere else and married her off to one of his bannermen who wasn't picky. He probably jumped at tossing her over to Jon Arryn because it's a big match and coming from a man who needs a girl who, at the very least, can get pregnant.

2. If the gods are good, the memory of what he did to Lysa would still have tormented him to the grave. Tansy was genuinely used to induce abortions in medieval times and high doses can cause a woman to miscarry. If Lysa was already over a month or more into her pregnancy, which she very well could have been, Hoster essentially induced a hemorrhage in Lysa by giving her moon tea. He's lucky he didn't kill her.

Marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn was the worst thing he could do. Pairing a young girl off with an older man who already has issues with continuing his name, after she received a near-fatal dose of moon tea? 

Anyways, that’s not the only reason I dislike Hoster Tully. The other is that he’s responsible for making Littlefinger into the manipulative sociopath he is today by thinking he wasn’t worthy of Catelyn. Nice job Hoster, now your lands are ravaged all because of a war Littlefinger and Lysa started after Littlefinger got lacerated by Brandon Stark. 

So what would Hoster have done if the moon tea killed Lysa?

 

[Faera]

35 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what would Hoster have done if the moon tea killed Lysa?

 

Buried her. Burned her. What else could he do? She'd have been dead.

Edit: Do you mean who would have married Jon Arryn? Probably no one. His marriage Lysa was sort of a "bonus"  as far as Hoster saw it. For Lysa's part, had she died, she would have been spared years of misery married to a man old enough to be her grandfather.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

You make a good case, but for Lysa's additional role in firing up the Lannister-Stark feud. It was Lysa who sent a message to Catelyn, in their private "sister-code", alleging that the Lannisters had killed her husband, Jon Arryn. Lysa did this, of course, at the behest of her beloved Petyr - but she clearly knew that it was she herself who had killed Jon A, again at the behest of Littlefinger. How could this possibly be linked to a fear that "Sweetrobin" would be sent to Dragonstone?

Well, Lysa did knew what kind of person Ned was. So maybe she was afraid, that when he will arrive to King's Landing, he will start snooping around, questioning details of Jon's death, even without someone pushing him to do that. And thus he may start to suspect, that Jon's death wasn't natural. Then he will look into motives, for whom Jon's death could have been favourable. Or who could have had a grudge against Jon. So eventually he could have found out about what Lysa did. Because that's the kind of guy he was. So Lysa's trap for Ned and Cat, was just a preventive measures, to defend herself from them.

6 hours ago, zandru said:

For that matter, if Lysa was so exercised about Stannis and Dragonstone, why didn't she go after Stannis? Or suggest alternatives, like bringing other boys to the Eyrie?

Killing Stannis wouldn't have resolved Lysa's problem. Jon was adamant about sending Robin to somewhere as a warden. If Stannis would have died, then Jon would have sent the boy to someone else, like to Starks to Winterfell. I think that one of reasons, why Jon has chosen Stannis, was because Stannis was brother of Robert Baratheon. So after him, second option would have been Jon's other ex-warden - Ned Stark. Probably the idiot Jon thought, that he was generous and considerate towards his wife, by sending her son to Dragonstone, instead of sending him to The North.

6 hours ago, zandru said:

Hear, hear! It's funny that Catelyn remembers him so fondly, as a good father and good ruler.

That's because he never forced her to make an abortion.

Not to mention, that for Cat, he has chosen a much better match, than for Lysa. Even though Ned wasn't as good as Brandon, nevertheless he also was young, visually attractive, healthy, with good body, etc. While Jon Arryn was

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It's always been a point of speculation for me, how moon tea affects fecundity.

Moon tea is made from plant tansy. This plant does exist in real word, and it does have an effect to cause an abortion or miscarriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tansy#History_of_uses

[Shi Qiang]

Lysa, Lysa.  Poor Lysa.  Lysa, Sansa, and Catelyn are all tools used by Littlefinger.  LF knows the right buttons to push to get the Tully girls and Sansa to do his work.  Sansa is still part Tully, by the way.  

A mother can surely be forgiven for defending her child.  Jon was set on sending Robert away and maybe killing him was the only way to stop it, gods be damned.  Staying out of the fight is usually smart even if it's not honorable.  But it is hard to excuse Lysa for writing that letter of accusation.  That was a big lie.  

The Starks and the Lannisters would have gone to war even without that malicious letter though.  Jaime crippled Bran and the truth will come out.  The Starks are not going to let that go and Tywin is not going to allow Jaime to get punished.  War will happen even without Lysa and Littlefinger.  Sure, LF pointed the guilt to Tyrion.  He pointed to a different Lannister is all he did.  The Lannisters still crippled Bran.

You can forgive some of Lysa's decisions but you cannot forgive all of them.  It's not take all or take nothing.  We can be intelligent about this and still judge her fairly.

[Shi Qiang]

53 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn was the worst thing he could do. Pairing a young girl off with an older man who already has issues with continuing his name, after she received a near-fatal dose of moon tea? 

Anyways, that’s not the only reason I dislike Hoster Tully. The other is that he’s responsible for making Littlefinger into the manipulative sociopath he is today by thinking he wasn’t worthy of Catelyn. Nice job Hoster, now your lands are ravaged all because of a war Littlefinger and Lysa started after Littlefinger got lacerated by Brandon Stark. 

So what would Hoster have done if the moon tea killed Lysa?

 

I'm with you.  Hoster was not a good father.  Risking the life of his daughter to find a better match that served his interests.  He's not alone in that but we are discussing him on this thread.  

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Thank you for that summary of Lysa's contributions to the story. I agree, I do have some sympathy for her, but I will not defend her.

That's it. Lysa deserves our sympathy b/c she really got a shitty hand and what Hoster did to her was horrible. But that cannot be used as a justification for all the very bad decisions she's made because of Littlefinger. As @zandru pointed out up thread, she kick started the whole mess w/ her letter to Cat early on in AGoT.

 

[Geddus]

38 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

The Starks and the Lannisters would have gone to war even without that malicious letter though.  Jaime crippled Bran and the truth will come out.  The Starks are not going to let that go and Tywin is not going to allow Jaime to get punished.  War will happen even without Lysa and Littlefinger.  Sure, LF pointed the guilt to Tyrion.  He pointed to a different Lannister is all he did.  The Lannisters still crippled Bran.

After Bran's fall, the only reason Ned went South was because he wanted to protect Robert. Without Lysa's letter he would have remained in Winterfell, so no war.

I'm not sure the truth about Jaime's attempted murder of Bran would have come out, the boy didn't remember anything (still doesn't, I think?) and there was no reason to suspect foul play. Sure, there's always the catspaw but I'm not sure he would have managed to enter into Bran's room with a fully manned Winterfell; the man wasn't exactly brilliant.

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn was the worst thing he could do.

This action neatly combined punishing Lysa for her "indiscretions" with social climbing by the alliance with the Vale. Hoster was probably reasonably satisfied. But - hadn't he tried to match Lysa with Jaime Lannister, which caused Jaime to join the Kingsguard and pledge eternal celibacy, just to get away from Lysa? The Lysa-Jaime match indicated that, at least at one time, Hoster was looking out for his youngest girl.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Well, Lysa did knew what kind of person Ned was. So maybe she was afraid, that when he will arrive to King's Landing, he will start snooping around,

Maybe, but I think it's far more likely that Littlefinger had all these thoughts, and then told Lysa what to do.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Probably the idiot Jon thought, that he was generous and considerate towards his wife, by sending her son to Dragonstone, instead of sending him to The North.

Also, Dragonstone is just a short skip across the bay from King's Landing. Winterfell or Casterly Rock are all long, long journeys. Lysa would have easily been able to visit little Robert (although it might have been better had she not.)

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

I'm not sure the truth about Jaime's attempted murder of Bran would have come out, the boy didn't remember anything (still doesn't, I think?) and there was no reason to suspect foul play.

Well, once Catelyn regains her faculties following the attack, she puts together the place Bran was found, the fact that The Kingslayer didn't go on the hunt, and that he and Cersei were seen in the tower where Bran fell on that day. Good work! But she then assumes that the golden twins also sent the assassin, which turns out not to have been true. Even Tyrion (the sharpest tool in the shed) doesn't figure out whodunit until the day of the perp's wedding, at which he dies and thus escapes punishment ;-)

[JaneSnow]

I agree. I don't really hate her(I don't hate any of the characters really, not even Joffrey. I don't often feel that strong of an emotion towards characters. There are few that I truly hate.) I just kinda pity her. Not defending her killing Jon Arryn(yeah, the guy was old and he stank but we don't know much of his personality he could have been a fairly decent guy) but I understand the stuff about babying her son so much having lost so many children. She's clearly an unhinged woman. 

[Bitterblooms]

I also question whether Sweetrobin's issues would resolve when he was sent away to be fostered, like some in the books believe. The kid was clearly actually sick apart from his immaturity. I wouldn't want to send him away if Hew my kid either. And thats not even considering her history of births which just makes me feel so sad for her. 

But I can't go as far to say she was right to murder Jon Arryn. In the grand scale of immoral things, murdering a nonabusive elderly husband because of a lover's suggestion is pretty bad. 

Maybe the best way to see Lysa is the same as many other asoiaf characters: a victim and a perpetrator. But just because I can empathize with her loss doesn't mean I can call her later actions sane or morally acceptable. 

[Damsel in Distress]

Protecting the life of her son justified the killing of Jon Arryn.  The boy suffers from seizures.  Robert would die should one of those episodes happen while the boy is on horseback playing at knighthood.  Her son is fragile.  Fostering him where he could contract greyscale from Shireen would worry any mother.  Sending him off to Casterly Rock where he could be exposed to a degenerate imp to corrupt his morals is not so much of an improvement.  That's no way to make the boy masculine.  

Jon Arryn was on the trail of Jaime and Cersei.  It was only a matter of time before he found the answer.  War was coming and it doesn't matter what Lysa wrote in that letter.  It was morally wrong to fib but it was not the cause of the war.  The war began when Jaime and Cersei had children.  It was slowly building up towards war because they were fooling around on Robert.  I know Robert was a jerk and it's only fair play to cheat behind his back.  But peace for the realm is more important than getting even and getting off.

[FictionIsntReal]

I disagree that avoiding fostering would constitute "protecting" Sweetrobin. Protecting your wards (hostages sort of excepted) is something of a sacred duty in Westeros. That's why it was such a big deal for Aerys to order Jon Arryn to hand over his two wards to be killed. Stannis takes his duties seriously and would not be reckless with the child of the Hand (and something of a political ally in the Small Council, which might be as good as a close friend to a man like Stannis with few of them). Robert would be a cupbearer or page rather than a squire at that age. I don't think Sam Tarly ever became a squire, even with his awful martial-obsessed father from the most knightly kingdom, He was supposed to do that after first serving as a page for Paxter Redwyne, but his unsuitability prevented him from even doing that.

[Kandrax]

I think that LF was one who put idea of fostering in Jon's head.

[Frey Kings]

Lysa Tully. She does not deserve the honor to have the name Arryn. She is a horrible human being. Imagine if Jon Arryn married Cat and Ned was stuck with Lysa? Oh my god.

 

She killed Jon Arryn. Does that even register with anyone? A man that bought peace, stability and diplomacy to a war-torn realm after a bloody campaign. Jon Arryn was a good man.

 

She is a just an awful human being.

 

And she would've killed Eddard Stark as well. 

[Frey Kings]

4 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

I think that LF was one who put idea of fostering in Jon's head.

Stannis and Jon Arryn were doing undercover work of King Robert's kids. They would ride around together visiting King Robert's bastards. Fostering with Stannis on Dragonstone was the fastest and easiest route. No one will be able to get to him. 

[Lord of Oldstones]

18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Hoster Tully is one of my least favorite characters in the series (and that's saying something), since he essentially created Littlefinger because he wasn't worthy of Catelyn. Aborting Lysa's child nearly proved fatal for Lysa, and pairing her with Jon Arryn, an old man who already has fecundity issues is going to aggravate Lysa's own limited ability to produce a healthy child. This drove her to Littlefinger, who had an affair with her and persuaded her to kill Jon. As a result of the fallout, to quote Lord Frey (I changed the quote slightly to make daughters plural):

"Look at us now, Tully! You're dead, your daughters' dead, your grandson's dead, your son spent his wedding night in a dungeon, and ...I'm lord of Riverrun!"

6. Stannis can't be that harsh. Shireen's a sweet girl.

Walder ain’t no Lord of Riverrun that quote is from the stupid blasphemous TV show! 

 

On topic Lysa is nothing but puppet of LF dancing on his tunes!Dont have any sympathy for her action in main series 

[Frey Kings]

On 5/7/2018 at 0:46 AM, Helena Kyle said:

I am going to defend Lysa's decision to poison her husband.  Maybe it's the feminists in me kicking in!  

1. Lysa fell in love with Petyr.  They have sex and she gets pregnant.  Hoster makes her abort.
2. Hoster sends Petyr away.
3. Lysa is forced to marry an old man with bad breath.
4. Lysa gives birth to a son.  A physically weak boy.
5. Lysa has no more children.  The one son is all she has.
6. Jon Arryn wants to foster his son away to a man who can be considered harsh.  Lysa would know this.
7. Lysa has no way to talk her husband out of his plan to send their sickly son away.

I can understand why Lady Lysa would poison Jon Arryn.  She was desperate.  Lysa was a mother who was desperate to protect her son.  I don't think Robin would survive his fostering.  A mother knows her son and she knows he's not made for fighting.  

Lysa gets criticized a lot for staying out of the War of the Five Kings even thought it's the smart thing to do.  The families who stay neutral for as long as they can are the ones who avoid taking unnecessary damage.  Case in point, Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey.  All Lysa wants to do is keep her son safe.  Keeping neutral and staying on that mountain was her best option.  It would have been complete stupidity to support the Starks against the Lannisters.  Eddard already admitted to treason and lost his life.  It wasn't her fault that the Lannisters are sacking the Riverlands.  That was Cat's fault.  

Lysa gave Tyrion his trial and let him go when he won.  Trial by combat is complete stupidity.  It's nothing more than giving the lord a way to settle disputes without actually having to pass judgment.  Nevertheless, it was fair and Lysa let an enemy go free because he won the trial.  Would Cersei do the same?  Would Stannis be so fair?  

Honey, this incoherent rambling of yours is your "feminists in me kicking in!"? uhhhhh