Jon Snow and Sexuality

[JaneSnow]

I think it is interesting and worth discussing the way Jon seems to view his sexuality throughout the books. While the other boys such as Theon and Robb are fairly confident in it, especially Theon, Jon seems almost ashamed of it. He had no qualms about the chastity part of his vows, something I'm sure most boys his age would. With Ygritte, he is shy and embarrassed by her advances and although he is attracted to her he carries a lot of shame with it. A lot of this is due to his vows and his desire to never father a bastard, but he also seems disgusted by this very human part of him, as shown when he is caught in the act by the other wildings and one threatens to pour water over them if he doesn't stop and he feels as though they were like "A pair of rutting dogs" and weak. Another point he laments "If this is so wrong, why did the gods make it feel so good?" It seems as though he is unable to let himself just relax and enjoy it due to his own internal reservations. I think a lot of it has to do with because he is a bastard(Whether you believe that or R+L=J or whatever, the point is he was raised to believe it and presented as such), something that has led to his life being a bit tougher than his trueborn siblings. Bastards come about as a result of a sexually immoral act(adultery) and thus because his existence, his struggles(at least some of them) stem from sex he tends to regard the act in a negative way. Thoughts?

[Darth Sidious]

I think you answered most of your own questions Jane.  Jon's bastard status gave him a giant chip on the shoulder in many ways.  He is a bastard born out of wedlock and conceived from dishonor.  He took vows never to father children.  It is understandable why the bastard would have mixed feelings about having sex.

[JaneSnow]

42 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

I think you answered most of your own questions Jane.  Jon's bastard status gave him a giant chip on the shoulder in many ways.  He is a bastard born out of wedlock and conceived from dishonor.  He took vows never to father children.  It is understandable why the bastard would have mixed feelings about having sex.

I just wanted to hear others opinions on it, see if they agreed with me or not

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 minutes ago, JaneSnow said:

I just wanted to hear others opinions on it, see if they agreed with me or not

Your analysis is pretty good. The character seems to internalize the bigotry put on bastards which makes sense if he was constantly reminded of his status, weather it was playing king of the castle with Robb or being looked down upon by Cat 

[JaneSnow]

Also to see if anyone had anything to add to it

[Makk]

It's not only the fact he is a bastard, but he also has an extreme personal moral/honour code. There are plenty of other bastards who simply don't have this issue, but he doesn't want a child to grow up going through the same issues, but probably worse since their father wouldn't be a lord, that he did. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

While the other boys such as Theon and Robb are fairly confident in it, especially Theon,

Where are you getting Robb is fairly confident in it? 

4 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Jon seems almost ashamed of it. He had no qualms about the chastity part of his vows, something I'm sure most boys his age would. W

To be fair-he didn't really realize what he was promising to give up-he was 14 after all. 

5 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

A lot of this is due to his vows and his desire to never father a bastard, but he also seems disgusted by this very human part of him, as shown when he is caught in the act by the other wildings and one threatens to pour water over them if he doesn't stop and he feels as though they were like "A pair of rutting dogs" and weak.

Well pre-marital sex in general is something, he and his father as well brother seem to heavily frown upon in general-regardless of gender. Not to say he feels doesn't feel a constant shame at very human emotions-for instance being envious of Robb, or desiring the same privelages of those of other children of the nobility. . 

[chrisdaw]

Yeah that's the arc up until this point.

Where it is headed is he will get a woman not his wife pregnant and feel immense shame for having done so. Then he finds out about R+L=J and they were wedded and it's even worse because he himself isn't a bastard, he hasn't even repeated the mistakes of his father(s), they were better men than him and he's not worthy. Then when the child is born and he holds his daughter in his arms all his shame will be washed away, as bastard or no it doesn't matter, blood of his blood the child can be nothing but a beautiful thing and not at all a mistake. And I guess he would then become sex positive like our author, only he's not going to live much longer and won't get to express it.

I'm rather interested to see how close the world isn't going to view Jon's and Dany's arcs as leaning into pro-life territory.

[Lollygag]

I think the conclusion is right, but I think more is at play. In modern times, we may often separate sex, marriage and children but the Westerosi (and real life past) holds that they are all tied together. So Jon's view of sex is linked to his view of marriage and children.

This made me really realize how badly bastards are stigmatized in regards to sexuality.

ASOS Sansa VI

"Alayne." Her aunt's singer stood over her. "Sweet Alayne. I am Marillion. I saw you come in from the rain. The night is chill and wet. Let me warm you."

The old dog raised his head and growled, but the singer gave him a cuff and sent him slinking off, whimpering.

"Marillion?" she said, uncertain. "You are . . . kind to think of me, but . . . pray forgive me. I am very tired."

"And very beautiful. All night I have been making songs for you in my head. A lay for your eyes, a ballad for your lips, a duet to your breasts. I will not sing them, though. They were poor things, unworthy of such beauty." He sat on her bed and put his hand on her leg. "Let me sing to you with my body instead."

She caught a whiff of his breath. "You're drunk."

"I never get drunk. Mead only makes me merry. I am on fire." His hand slipped up to her thigh. "And you as well."

"Unhand me. You forget yourself."

"Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know . . . there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?"

"I'm a maiden," she protested.

"Truly? Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods you did. I'll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa."

Sansa jerked away from him, frightened. "If you don't leave me, my au—my father will hang you. Lord Petyr."

"Littlefinger?" He chuckled. "Lady Lysa loves me well, and I am Lord Robert's favorite. If your father offends me, I will destroy him with a verse." He put a hand on her breast, and squeezed. "Let's get you out of these wet clothes. You wouldn't want them ripped, I know. Come, sweet lady, heed your heart—"

Sansa heard the soft sound of steel on leather. "Singer," a rough voice said, "best go, if you want to sing again." The light was dim, but she saw a faint glimmer of a blade.

 

That said, on my first read when Benjen warned Jon about joining the NW before being with a woman and Jon responded (paraphrasing), "Pfffttt, I got this. I know what I'm doing," I knew right then that Jon was going to have problems in this area. I wasn't surprised that Jon went from not sleeping with Ygritte, then sleeping with her only just enough to convince Mance, to going at it like bunnies.

Now Jon is checking out Alys, is attracted to Mel though she also repulses him, is making googly eyes at Val and even is fascinated by Satin, I think there's a lot of set up for Jon to, er, get around in TWOW and ADOS. More so the longer he spends in Ghost getting all wolfy and having that reduce his inhibitions.

[Sea Dragon]

18 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

I think it is interesting and worth discussing the way Jon seems to view his sexuality throughout the books. While the other boys such as Theon and Robb are fairly confident in it, especially Theon, Jon seems almost ashamed of it. He had no qualms about the chastity part of his vows, something I'm sure most boys his age would. With Ygritte, he is shy and embarrassed by her advances and although he is attracted to her he carries a lot of shame with it. A lot of this is due to his vows and his desire to never father a bastard, but he also seems disgusted by this very human part of him, as shown when he is caught in the act by the other wildings and one threatens to pour water over them if he doesn't stop and he feels as though they were like "A pair of rutting dogs" and weak. Another point he laments "If this is so wrong, why did the gods make it feel so good?" It seems as though he is unable to let himself just relax and enjoy it due to his own internal reservations. I think a lot of it has to do with because he is a bastard(Whether you believe that or R+L=J or whatever, the point is he was raised to believe it and presented as such), something that has led to his life being a bit tougher than his trueborn siblings. Bastards come about as a result of a sexually immoral act(adultery) and thus because his existence, his struggles(at least some of them) stem from sex he tends to regard the act in a negative way. Thoughts?

Jon is nervous because he has not met his queen yet . He is saving himself unconsciously. He will chose Arya as his ice wife and Danaerys as his fire wife. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yup all about Jon's feelings about his own bastardy in a world that views them as sinister untrustworthy sexual promiscuous etc. Obviously there is a bit more to it. 

But I have two guinea fowl in the oven that I was concerned might be burning/drying out. 

[kissdbyfire]

On 5/7/2018 at 9:19 PM, Agent Orange said:

He is a bastard born out of wedlock and conceived from dishono

Wishful thinking much?

 

[JaneSnow]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:01 AM, Lollygag said:

I think the conclusion is right, but I think more is at play. In modern times, we may often separate sex, marriage and children but the Westerosi (and real life past) holds that they are all tied together. So Jon's view of sex is linked to his view of marriage and children.

This made me really realize how badly bastards are stigmatized in regards to sexuality.

ASOS Sansa VI

 

"Alayne." Her aunt's singer stood over her. "Sweet Alayne. I am Marillion. I saw you come in from the rain. The night is chill and wet. Let me warm you."

 

The old dog raised his head and growled, but the singer gave him a cuff and sent him slinking off, whimpering.

 

"Marillion?" she said, uncertain. "You are . . . kind to think of me, but . . . pray forgive me. I am very tired."

 

"And very beautiful. All night I have been making songs for you in my head. A lay for your eyes, a ballad for your lips, a duet to your breasts. I will not sing them, though. They were poor things, unworthy of such beauty." He sat on her bed and put his hand on her leg. "Let me sing to you with my body instead."

 

She caught a whiff of his breath. "You're drunk."

 

"I never get drunk. Mead only makes me merry. I am on fire." His hand slipped up to her thigh. "And you as well."

 

"Unhand me. You forget yourself."

 

"Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know . . . there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?"

 

"I'm a maiden," she protested.

 

"Truly? Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods you did. I'll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa."

 

Sansa jerked away from him, frightened. "If you don't leave me, my au—my father will hang you. Lord Petyr."

 

"Littlefinger?" He chuckled. "Lady Lysa loves me well, and I am Lord Robert's favorite. If your father offends me, I will destroy him with a verse." He put a hand on her breast, and squeezed. "Let's get you out of these wet clothes. You wouldn't want them ripped, I know. Come, sweet lady, heed your heart—"

 

Sansa heard the soft sound of steel on leather. "Singer," a rough voice said, "best go, if you want to sing again." The light was dim, but she saw a faint glimmer of a blade.

 

 

 

That said, on my first read when Benjen warned Jon about joining the NW before being with a woman and Jon responded (paraphrasing), "Pfffttt, I got this. I know what I'm doing," I knew right then that Jon was going to have problems in this area. I wasn't surprised that Jon went from not sleeping with Ygritte, then sleeping with her only just enough to convince Mance, to going at it like bunnies.

Now Jon is checking out Alys, is attracted to Mel though she also repulses him, is making googly eyes at Val and even is fascinated by Satin, I think there's a lot of set up for Jon to, er, get around in TWOW and ADOS. More so the longer he spends in Ghost getting all wolfy and having that reduce his inhibitions.

Are you insinuating that Jon steal Cersei's throne as Queen of the Whores in the next books?

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, JaneSnow said:

Are you insinuating that Jon steal Cersei's throne as Queen of the Whores in the next books?

I don't know why,  but the idea really cracks me up. But no, I don't get the impression that Jon will sleep around for political benefit, more because as Benjen warned, Jon isn't suited to celibacy and add impulse control problems.... Jon has his strengths, but we all know that politics isn't among them and politics is why Cersei sleeps around.

I think that Jon will be a leader, but I'm not sure he'll be ever be a clear-cut king. Maybe some will see him as king, but I'm guessing based on Westeros' fracturing, the king/queen situation in Westeros will continue to be messy especially as the author seems to favor such situations.

He might challenge Cersei in the drinking department though. What's up with all of his wine-drinking in ADWD?

[Vaedys Targaryen]

As someone already said, you've answered your own question; Jon's status, and treatment, as a bastard has given him reasons why he wouldn't want to father one himself and put his own child through the same thing.

He has also taken vows as a member of the Night's Watch to never father any children and would be put to death if he broke that vow, which could cause anyone to feel shame and fear. And speaking of vows, Jon does seem to think very highly of Ned, who Jon associates with honour and duty and would therefore feel a lot of shame when he thinks that the only vow Ned ever broke was his marriage vow to Catelyn.

But also, remember that Jon is only around 14-years-old; he is going through puberty and if my talking to postpubescent men has taught me anything then it is that puberty, specifically the sexual part of it, for boys is really not that fun (from my perspective).

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

Wishful thinking much?

 

In his mind that's exactly what he is. He really is the perfect noble's bastard. Hates himself yet loves and could always be counted to serve the interests of the house of his father when called uponeven if R+L=J is true there's bound to be some debate on whether or not Rheagar marrying Lyanna is valid. 

[JaneSnow]

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

He might challenge Cersei in the drinking department though. What's up with all of his wine-drinking in ADWD?

We all know he's got her beat in the hair department. 

7 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

 

But also, remember that Jon is only around 14-years-old; he is going through puberty and if my talking to postpubescent men has taught me anything then it is that puberty, specifically the sexual part of it, for boys is really not that fun (from my perspective).

I think he's about 16 to 17 as of ADWD

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't get the impression that Jon will sleep around for political benefit, more because as Benjen warned, Jon isn't suited to celibacy and add impulse control problems.... Jon has his strengths, but we all know that politics isn't among them and politics is why Cersei sleeps around.

Meh, Jon's potential lovers are limited and undesirable(practically, and due to his very nature). Alys, and Val and Melisandre may have expressed an interest in him and he may have genuine attraction to each, but he'd just have gotten over a coup and he already distanced himself from his friends at the start of ADWD. I imagine him being more reclusive. Perhaps if he died(I really can't see how he couldn't), lost his libido. 

[JaneSnow]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, Jon's potential lovers are limited and undesirable(practically, and due to his very nature). Alys, and Val and Melisandre may have expressed an interest in him and he may have genuine attraction to each, but he'd just have gotten over a coup and he already distanced himself from his friends at the start of ADWD. I imagine him being more reclusive. Perhaps if he died(I really can't see how he couldn't), lost his libido. 

What about Satin?

[Lord Lannister]

11 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

But also, remember that Jon is only around 14-years-old; he is going through puberty and if my talking to postpubescent men has taught me anything then it is that puberty, specifically the sexual part of it, for boys is really not that fun (from my perspective).

As many have touched upon, it's hard to enjoy something when the very act by it's nature touches upon Jon's perceived inadequacies as a bastard, but I think this has just as much to do with it. Being shy and nervous about sex is perfectly natural for a 14 year old boy in of itself. 

I will say he seems to have matured since his relationship with Ygritte ran it's course. He doesn't seem as touchy or frightened in his internal dialogues when considering Val for example. Just a bit of longing weighed down by sadness and duty.