Jon Snow and Sexuality

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Coincidentally Catelyn's biggest fear is that Jon will have children, children that will try and usurp her children/grandchildren. Maybe that somehow rubbed off on Jon growing up.

3 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

What about Satin?

True. Plus Jon mentions how pretty Satin is almost as many times as he does Val. 

[Lord Varys]

In a realistic scenario the revelation of Jon's true parentage wouldn't have any effect on how he sees sex and having children out of wedlock. He grew up as a bastard and he'll never lose that upbringing, never mind what he learns about his biological parents.

I'm also pretty sure that Jon Snow the Revealed Prince is not going to suddenly fuck women outside of wedlock just because he isn't a bastard. If is going to enter into another relationship it is likely going to hinge on the prospect of marriage. Living the life of a bastard - even if he never was one, technically - is not going to motivate him to father bastards as soon as he realizes that he himself is not, in fact, a bastard.

In fact, it should be the reverse. He should continue to chide and criticize people who father bastards, and might even invoke laws to punish men who do this or force them to treat them more like they treat legitimate children, etc.

His issues with the Ygritte relationship are not only on that level, though. The boy was sexually abused by a more older, more experienced woman who put him into a position - with the help of her fellow wildlings, of course - where he had to enter into a sexual and romantic relationship when he was neither willing nor ready for it.

That will leave a mark on him - something we really see in the way he deals with both Melisandre and Val in ADwD. They are attractive and all, and he notices that, but he has no interest in pursuing another romantic or sexual relationship.

[Brynden Blackfyre]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In a realistic scenario the revelation of Jon's true parentage wouldn't have any effect on how he sees sex and having children out of wedlock. He grew up as a bastard and he'll never lose that upbringing, never mind what he learns about his biological parents.

I'm also pretty sure that Jon Snow the Revealed Prince is not going to suddenly fuck women outside of wedlock just because he isn't a bastard. If is going to enter into another relationship it is likely going to hinge on the prospect of marriage. Living the life of a bastard - even if he never was one, technically - is not going to motivate him to father bastards as soon as he realizes that he himself is not, in fact, a bastard.

In fact, it should be the reverse. He should continue to chide and criticize people who father bastards, and might even invoke laws to punish men who do this or force them to treat them more like they treat legitimate children, etc.

His issues with the Ygritte relationship are not only on that level, though. The boy was sexually abused by a more older, more experienced woman who put him into a position - with the help of her fellow wildlings, of course - where he had to enter into a sexual and romantic relationship when he was neither willing nor ready for it.

That will leave a mark on him - something we really see in the way he deals with both Melisandre and Val in ADwD. They are attractive and all, and he notices that, but he has no interest in pursuing another romantic or sexual relationship.

Thats when condoms would come in handy

[Lollygag]

12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, Jon's potential lovers are limited and undesirable(practically, and due to his very nature). Alys, and Val and Melisandre may have expressed an interest in him and he may have genuine attraction to each, but he'd just have gotten over a coup and he already distanced himself from his friends at the start of ADWD. I imagine him being more reclusive. Perhaps if he died(I really can't see how he couldn't), lost his libido. 

I think there'll be a major arc change for Jon and I see Jon's basic nature as partly comprising what's shown in my Saint Jon thread. A lot of things have been set up for how his arc will change so I dunno how it would look. I also don't think he's died. So yeah, I agree with you about his current arc anyhow - his options are quite limited, but can't deny what his feelings are as it's all there in black and white. Kid's horny as all get out.

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

What about Satin?

 Well even if Jon does have an attraction to Satin(I personally think people are reading far to heavily in Jon thinking a pretty boy is pretty), You don't fuck your brothers. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

In fact, it should be the reverse. He should continue to chide and criticize people who father bastards, and might even invoke laws to punish men who do this or force them to treat them more like they treat legitimate children, etc.

 

I can see him trying something akin the latter that if he ever becomes Daenarys' consort. I don't see him personally wagging his fingers at people who do father bastards though.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 His issues with the Ygritte relationship are not only on that level, though. The boy was sexually abused by a more older, more experienced woman who put him into a position - with the help of her fellow wildlings, of course - where he had to enter into a sexual and romantic relations

Wow it kinda sounds when you think about it Jon was sexually abused no the first time he slept with Ygritte?  He's given the distinct impression if doesn't he'll be branded a crow and promptly killed. It's literally do or death. And Mance did plan on Ygritte, to seduce Jon to be sure.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I think there'll be a major arc change for Jon and I see Jon's basic nature as partly comprising what's shown in my Saint Jon thread. A lot of things have been set up for how his arc will change so I dunno how it would look. I also don't think he's died. So yeah, I agree with you about his current arc anyhow - his options are quite limited, but can't deny what his feelings are as it's all there in black and white. Kid's horny as all get out.

He feels certain attractions to members of the opposite. Perfectly natural. And he will probably continue to grow, and evolve in the next book. I don't dispute that. But, honestly would he go father than aweknowlgenebt and admiration for their looks? I don't see so. Val's talk of euthanizing Shireen and vow to start a rebellion if Selyse pushes Rh'lor on her people already caused a disruption and I can only see things escalating. Arys is for the Thenns. He won't go to a sex worker. Dare I say he wouldn't even go to one of the free wildling women starioned at Castle black for his position of lord commander. I simply don't see Jon even if he does plan to break his oaths to not fuck women (at least in his mind), that he could bring himself to do it again. Especially since he's going to be far more likely to distance himself among people and be far more cautious.

[Lollygag]

27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He feels certain attractions to members of the opposite. Perfectly natural. And he will probably continue to grow, and evolve in the next book. I don't dispute that. But, honestly would he go father than aweknowlgenebt and admiration for their looks? I don't see so. Val's talk of euthanizing Shireen and vow to start a rebellion if Selyse pushes Rh'lor on her people already caused a disruption and I can only see things escalating. Arys is for the Thenns. He won't go to a sex worker. Dare I say he wouldn't even go to one of the free wildling women starioned at Castle black for his position of lord commander. I simply don't see Jon even if he does plan to break his oaths to not fuck women (at least in his mind), that he could bring himself to do it again. Especially since he's going to be far more likely to distance himself among people and be far more cautious.

I already said that I don't think he's staying in the NW though I do think he'll be fully committed to fighting the Others regardless of where he ends up, so I've no response to this. The pattern of behavior is already there.

[JaneSnow]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Well even if Jon does have an attraction to Satin(I personally think people are reading far to heavily in Jon thinking a pretty boy is pretty), You don't fuck your brothers. 

Someone ought to tell that to Cersei

[JaneSnow]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 1:06 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Where are you getting Robb is fairly confident in it? 

 

Well he isn't shy about discussing it with his mom it seems.

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Well he isn't shy about discussing it with his mom it seems.

Meh, he had give his reason for why he has to break his marriage agreement with the Freys. And he didn't exactly come off as comfortable in talking about it; whether it's more due to the sever gravity of the situation, or its his mother who he's talking to I don't know. When discussing the trouble he's been having getting his wife pregnant I imagine he sees it as more stately buisness and does have bearing upon what Robb plans(lacking some empathy for his mother,) to inform Catelyn on his wish to name Jon his heir until/if  he has an heir. He also sees sex as being something that if done outside of holy matrimony as being such a crime that requires the participants to get married.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Jon is placed in an awkward situation when he ends up with the wildlings, he has no choice about having sex because Mance makes it clear that he see's the breaking of his vows as proof of his turning his cloak. Jon wants to sleep with Ygritte but wants to retain his personal view of honouring his vows. Despite the fact that Qorhin told him he must do whatever it takes to infiltrate the wildlings and discover Mances plans.  Jon is 15 when he looses his virginity and the inner conflict is really well written, the natural driving urge to have sex is at odds with both his vows and his feelings about himself, bastardy, Ned's shame etc.  The relationship plays out as a way for Jon to learn that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. And that the free folk are no less human for living north of the wall.  As well as learning a few lessons about history, his own faith & religion, the roles of House Stark, and the NW, and the threat the Others pose. 

Phase two of Jon's journey brings him face to face with the choice between the woman he has grown to love and loyalty to his brothers, ultimately he chooses the latter and returns to the NW. Upon his return he has to prove he is loyal to his vows despite having so publicly broken them. And this begins the conflict between him and several other NW men. They simply don't trust him and this festers away. 

Eventually Jon is elevated to Lord Commander, and Val re-enters the stage We first met her in Mances tent when 15 year old Jon was shitting a brick trying to convince Mance to spare him. She is introduced as Dalla's sister. He first see's her again when he uses a one eyed spying glass; a Myrish Lens to observe Mances camp from atop the wall. Here Jon is embodying an Odin/warrior leader role one eyed, "seeing" trying to gain knowledge for advantage in battle. Jon see's her milking a goat. In Valhalla the mead given to the fallen hero's comes from the teat of a magical goat. And is dispensed by the Valkyries. The Valkyries have a symbolic role in Norse society embodied by a class of women known as the Volva or anglicised as Vala. These women came in sort of two formats. One an older and nomadic woman seen as very wise and having powerful seer abilities. And the other noble women marrying chieftains or warlords and playing the Valkyrie role in his hall, serving mead ritualistically, and weaving in a magical ceremony when he was out fighting and seeing performing the same magics; being a volva. The weaving representing the weaving of time and magic and outcome is another job of Valkries, Freya and Frigg both are shown as being about this business, as well as having roles relating to love and sex. The Volva we know of are often found buried with drugs  such as cannabis and henbane. Which have mind altering, hallucinogenic and aphrodisiac qualities. All this points to Jon as the Odin warrior figure and Val as the Freya/Volva figure having a relationship akin to that of the warchiefs and Volva's in Norse society who were enacting an embodiment of their gods relationship. 

There is even evidence of this in the books when we examine the historical woods witches of Westeros. We know the historical accounts reflect the non andalasised version of the Old Gods faith more accurately. And many have long considered Val to be more than meets the eye in terms of who she is and what skills she might have. The suit of white clothing with that Weirwood face brooch being the big flags for that along side her name itself, and that of her sister.  I have been proposing that the role of woods witch itself has more significance than we first imagine and that this is becoming more and more prominent to us as readers the more material GRRM puts out and as we begin to explore wildling culture more. I've written a blog post on this topic which I'll link to here.  http://theweirwoodseyes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/woodswitches-comprahensive-review.html 

But in the mean time I'll get back to Jon & Val. 

Jon is 17 now and he's definitely attracted to Val, and she to him. He's still not keen to break that celibacy vow but there is every possibility that after the stabbing Jon won't be as committed to retaining the arbitrary rules of the NW. Wether or not one fathers a child or marries doesn't seem so vitally important when faced with the Ice apocalypse. And with the blend of NW men and Wildlings currently being the first line of defence in this fight he has to marry the two populations in a way that keeps the alliance strong. So I think he'll be willing to bend the rules significantly because the greater good is what matters. This was one of his lessons he learnt whilst with Ygritte. That the big fight is with the others not against the wildlings and that them being with them in that fight is better than them being ice wights coming for them in their tens of thousands. 

TBH we don't know that he's not keen to break his celibacy vow so much as he is yet to do so. He's had opportunities but he's got other stuff to focus on, he's trying very hard to keep the institution of the NW true to the principles they operate under. Whilst trying to integrate the very people those men have been fighting against for years. As well as balance these factors against the presence of Stannis and his men and the principle of not taking sides in the wars between the various factions of westerosi nobility. And into that mix arrives the news that Arya is in need of his help and Ramsey Snow holds her and WF.  The lads not really got a lot of mental energy to invest in starting a relationship. 

Post stabbing though things should become clearer for Jon.  And the wildlings should begin to have more sway after the more traditional element of the NW have literally stabbed him in the back.  I think Jon will give in to his sexuality once more but in a way that is more on his terms. Val won't be forcing him into her bed. 

@The Fattest Leechhas some brilliant ideas  about these two. 

 

And ultimately if he does end up with Dany this would align with GRRM's favoured rule of three theme. Three lovers for each of them; we don't count Hizdhar no emotion went into their relationship it was a political transaction. 

17 year old Jon isn't as bogged down by his emotions pertaining to his bastardy or Ned's perceived shame. They are still relevant but he learnt from Ygritte & the wildlings that the way his culture views such things is just a social construct. 

[Pikachu101]

On 5/11/2018 at 12:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

The boy was sexually abused by a more older, more experienced woman

Finally someone gets it! Jon/Ygritte was not consensual nor should it be seen as romantic.

I can see Jon as demisexual, he's clearly attracted to Val but he's also fond of Satin so it's anyone's guess. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Mance makes it clear that he see's the breaking of his vows as proof of his turning his cloak.

You know, @Lord Varys may a pretty good case that Mance tasked Ygritte and Tommen of getting Jon to fall for Ygritte-hench the forced sleeping together with the girl and the instance by both she's his wife. It makes sense Mance would want to humanize the wildlings in Jon's eyes as much he can given the boys connection to the Starks and how so obviously favored by them.

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Wether or not one fathers a child or marries doesn't seem so vitally important when faced with the Ice apocalypse. And with the blend of NW men and Wildlings currently being the first line of defence in this fight he has to marry the two populations in a way that keeps the alliance strong. So I think he'll be willing to bend the rules significantly because the greater good is what matters.

Wait are you suggesting to strengthen the alliance literally through allowing black brothers to marry wildling women? I can only see problems with that. Chiefly,  a lot of the black brothers deciding to take up the wildling's favored custom of kidnapping women and forcibly marrying her. Yes, I'm sure the women won't particularly mind(this is what is to be expected of them), if done "fairly" but after the first few brothers gets severly injured, the brothers will stop playing fair, and I imagine if the wife has a  husband, the brothers would create another feud between the watch and wildlings. And yeah, although not something that will insure the destruction of the, every new mouth to feed stretches the already sparse food supply thinner. Every little bit helps. But I'm sure families/women realize this and will take the appropriate actions and find a woodswitch should they face a pregnancy..The alliance is strong so long as land and salvation are offered; they do not need to grow more friendly toward each other. Well that and leave them their gods.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Finally someone gets it! Jon/Ygritte was not consensual nor should it be seen as romantic.

I can see Jon as demisexual, he's clearly attracted to Val but he's also fond of Satin so it's anyone's guess. 

 

You mean bi-sexual right? 

Also, you know he'd also have this in common with Daenarys; their first lover, was in effect their abuser. Though both are looked back with Rose collared lenses the initial stages were shown a teenager with virtually no choice but give up their virginity to a near stranger, to avoid death. 

[Lord Varys]

On 5/11/2018 at 5:52 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Well even if Jon does have an attraction to Satin(I personally think people are reading far to heavily in Jon thinking a pretty boy is pretty), You don't fuck your brothers. 

As of yet there are subtle hints about homosexual relationships among the watchmen. Considering that George really seems to want to give gay people more space in the story it doesn't seem unlikely that we'll get more of that stuff in future books.

Jon might actually be more comfortable with a gay relationship/sex considering that this is not going to lead to bastards nor dishonor the woman in question. Satin is also not unlikely to be one of the main character handling his corpse in the near future - and therefore possibly also one of the crucial characters dealing with his resurrected body after Jon is brought back.

Things could go to interesting places from there. Or not.

But then - the boy really doesn't seem to have as strong a sex drive as Daenerys, Tyrion, Arianne, etc. He doesn't masturbate as far as we know, nor is there anything about assisted masturbation in his chapters. And while Dany is very quickly infatuated with Daario in ASoS Jon doesn't feel remotely as attracted to either Melisandre, Val, or Satin. 

On 5/11/2018 at 8:50 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I can see him trying something akin the latter that if he ever becomes Daenarys' consort. I don't see him personally wagging his fingers at people who do father bastards though.

If he were to hang out around people like Robert, carelessly fathering bastards left and right, he would say something. Not so much because he thinks it is morally wrong to seduce and fuck women out of wedlock but because he cannot stand the thought that the children born from such affairs live as shitty a life as he did - or a much worse life, in fact.

If one has some sort of official paramour, mistress, or lover and deeply cares for the children by that women he wouldn't have a big issue with that.

But if he actually has some power to change laws or influence policy on a meaningful degree then one would expect him to better the life of children born out of wedlock, especially the ridiculous nonsense that they born evil/bad due to the fact that they are the children of lust and fornication, etc.

On 5/11/2018 at 8:50 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wow it kinda sounds when you think about it Jon was sexually abused no the first time he slept with Ygritte?  He's given the distinct impression if doesn't he'll be branded a crow and promptly killed. It's literally do or death. And Mance did plan on Ygritte, to seduce Jon to be sure.

Sure, that's pretty obvious. The best way to get a black crow to forget his vows and ensure there is no turning back is to have him fuck some woman and/or fall in love with her. For many deserters women and lust would be a crucial reason for desertion, anyway, but for those who aren't driven by that desire the door is shut when they have their first good fuck north of the Wall.

And while Ygritte is very much naive in a lot of ways she most definitely knows what she wants. Jon is her little plaything, a young exotic boy from a land far away she wants for herself. She makes that very clear.

Jon is about as free in his 'decision' to sleep with Ygritte as I'd be if you had me sleep next to some woman each night, completely unable to shut her presence out. And when the next step is to tell me/Jon that I now have to sleep with her or be killed by the boss, then we are talking rape here, not consensual sex.

The whole attraction thing is irrelevant (which only sets in with Jon after they get the affair started, and then usually hormones kick in, anyway, especially in such a young man), as are physical signs of arousal and the like. The amount of insane pressure Jon was under didn't make his 'decision' to sleep with Ygritte a voluntary choice.

And it is actually a sign of the patriarchal system of Martinworld snapping back at its men when people (including Jon himself) blame him for breaking his vow with Ygritte. He had no other choice and was essentially forced into sex but since it was done by some young woman nobody doesn't really see her as being the one violating Jon. But that's what happened there.

Even if Jon hadn't been given a command by Qhorin, even if he had decided on his own to pretend to join the wildlings only to plan to return to Castle Black as soon as possible, Jon wouldn't have *really* broken his vow if it was - as it happened to be - a choice between death and sex, basically. You have to be able to make an actual choice to break a vow.

[JaneSnow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As of yet there are subtle hints about homosexual relationships among the watchmen. Considering that George really seems to want to give gay people more space in the story it doesn't seem unlikely that we'll get more of that stuff in future books.

Jon might actually be more comfortable with a gay relationship/sex considering that this is not going to lead to bastards nor dishonor the woman in question. Satin is also not unlikely to be one of the main character handling his corpse in the near future - and therefore possibly also one of the crucial characters dealing with his resurrected body after Jon is brought back.

Things could go to interesting places from there. Or not.

But then - the boy really doesn't seem to have as strong a sex drive as Daenerys, Tyrion, Arianne, etc. He doesn't masturbate as far as we know, nor is there anything about assisted masturbation in his chapters. And while Dany is very quickly infatuated with Daario in ASoS Jon doesn't feel remotely as attracted to either Melisandre, Val, or Satin.

I could possibly see a situation similar to Irri and Dany going out with Satin and Jon, especially since the boy is so stressed and Satin probably has experience.

But yeah it is kind interesting his lack of drive. I mean, he's no maid as of Storm and while he did enjoy his time with Ygritte(I agree that it wasn't consensual but his body certainly responded the way any boy his age would) but as soon as he's back Castle Black he's done with all of that and doesn't really even think about it. Kinda odd at his age.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:05 PM, JaneSnow said:

Someone ought to tell that to Cersei

She only did one of her brothers, so it's cool.

[JaneSnow]

6 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

She only did one of her brothers, so it's cool.

So if Jon just does only some of the Night's watch its fine

[Pikachu101]

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Also, you know he'd also have this in common with Daenarys; their first lover, was in effect their abuser. Though both are looked back with Rose collared lenses the initial stages were shown a teenager with virtually no choice but give up their virginity to a near stranger, to avoid death.

It's awful and I hate how the fandom (and actors) romanticise it.

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You mean bi-sexual right? 

I said demisexual because I feel for Jon emotional attraction is more important than sexual