Jon Snow and Sexuality

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

I could possibly see a situation similar to Irri and Dany going out with Satin and Jon, especially since the boy is so stressed and Satin probably has experience.

Well, considering that they don't exactly sleep in the same bed yet things have to change somewhat to get there.

11 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

But yeah it is kind interesting his lack of drive. I mean, he's no maid as of Storm and while he did enjoy his time with Ygritte(I agree that it wasn't consensual but his body certainly responded the way any boy his age would) but as soon as he's back Castle Black he's done with all of that and doesn't really even think about it. Kinda odd at his age.

But that's the thing - physical reactions don't mean that you want to have sex now or with the person triggering that reaction. Just as Dany getting wet doesn't mean she wanted to have sex with Drogo Jon being aroused doesn't mean he wants to have sex with Ygritte. He is coerced in the whole thing, and it is actually very ugly business considering that the whole really twists him around on an emotional level, forcing him to grow to like a woman who wants to kill his friends, forcing him to take the side of a people who wants to force him to kill his own friends, too.

These people are using Jon's own biological urges against him in an attempt to make him one of their own.

Being not exactly a person who likes to stick to rules I always had a lot of sympathy for Mance's decision to desert the Watch. On a very real level Mallister really behaved like a stupid little bureaucrat there. But Jon really likes rules, honor, vows, and all this stuff. He wants to live up to the example of the perfect Eddard Stark. Trying to use a woman to twist him around wasn't exactly a nice thing to do - nor was it nice or anything from Ygritte to target this young, conflicted, inexperienced boy the way she did.

It is not as subtle or insidious as the machinations of the guys in Les Liaisons dangereuses but in a sense it is the same category. Jon Snow wasn't even remotely prepared to deal with the kind of direct and merciless advances Ygritte made.

[Light a wight tonight]

4 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

So if Jon just does only some of the Night's watch its fine

Cersei-specific. Though "only one" would rule out "some" also.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

and I hate how the fandom (and actors) romanticise it.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To be fair there is general agreement that what had happened to Daenarys at the start of her marriage with Drogo as being abusive. There's no real discussion Jon's sexual abuse by Ygritte at the behest Mance. I kinda feel it's due to the sexist belief women/girls can't really  sexually abuse abuse males especially teenage ones; Jon couldn't have been sexually abused by Ygritte because he was done so at knifepoint; never mind he's at the very least 3 years Ygritte's junior,never mind his stated discomfort to her about the idea of sleeping with her, never mind all of that; he's a male. He should want this. 

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

ecause I feel for Jon emotional attraction is more important than sexual

Care to go into why?

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Being not exactly a person who likes to stick to rules I always had a lot of sympathy for Mance's decision to desert the Watch. On a very real level Mallister really behaved like a stupid little bureaucrat there.

I honestly don't see Malister asking/commanding Mance adhere to the basic dress code of the watch as being unreasonable. Quite honestly, Mance supposedlbly grew up at Castle black; honestly such a rule shouldn't be that hard to follow. Really, he's not a dumb guy if his story for why he deserted is true, he should have known sewing the scarf into his  uniform would be a big no no; if he had kept it stowed away as a keepsake, or wore it as as bandana, ok I might see Malister being too stringent on the rules; but Mance literally tarnished a perfectly good coat. If his story is true I can't help but think Mance did this to provoke Malister.

Quite honestly even if it were true I find his reason for deserting the weakest we've seen; he wasn't some ignorant boy who didn't know how classist and hard the watch was before he joined up,for he grew up with them. He can't claim he was forced to join. He can't claim any less options than anyone else in Westeroes; hell, quite honestly, given his tutelage on how to fight he could've even joined up with a mercenary company. 

[Light a wight tonight]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I honestly don't see Malister asking/commanding Mance adhere to the basic dress code of the watch as being unreasonable. Quite honestly, Mance supposedlbly grew up at Castle black; honestly such a rule shouldn't be that hard to follow. Really, he's not a dumb guy if his story for why he deserted is true, he should have known sewing the scarf into his  uniform would be a big no no; if he had kept it stowed away as a keepsake, or wore it as as bandana, ok I might see Malister being too stringent on the rules; but Mance literally tarnished a perfectly good coat. If his story is true I can't help but think Mance did this to provoke Malister.

Quite honestly even if it were true I find his reason for deserting the weakest we've seen; he wasn't some ignorant boy who didn't know how classist and hard the watch was before he joined up,for he grew up with them. He can't claim he was forced to join. He can't claim any less options than anyone else in Westeroes; hell, quite honestly, given his tutelage on how to fight he could've even joined up with a mercenary company. 

Some good points, but I think Mance had it in mind to leave the Watch. He might have come to the conclusion that they had gone too far from their original task of defending against the real threat, and had come to view the Wildlings as their only reason for existence. We see that attitude from the officer class, while there is a certain amount of trade going on between the Watch and the Wildlings. And maybe he's disgusted that the Watch has become little more than a place to send criminals.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I honestly don't see Malister asking/commanding Mance adhere to the basic dress code of the watch as being unreasonable. Quite honestly, Mance supposedlbly grew up at Castle black; honestly such a rule shouldn't be that hard to follow. Really, he's not a dumb guy if his story for why he deserted is true, he should have known sewing the scarf into his  uniform would be a big no no; if he had kept it stowed away as a keepsake, or wore it as as bandana, ok I might see Malister being too stringent on the rules; but Mance literally tarnished a perfectly good coat. If his story is true I can't help but think Mance did this to provoke Malister.

The issue there is that Mallister either didn't realize or did not care what the mended coat meant to Mance. And that shows that he wasn't really understanding the man, nor doing his best to keep him in the Watch. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Quite honestly even if it were true I find his reason for deserting the weakest we've seen; he wasn't some ignorant boy who didn't know how classist and hard the watch was before he joined up,for he grew up with them. He can't claim he was forced to join. He can't claim any less options than anyone else in Westeroes; hell, quite honestly, given his tutelage on how to fight he could've even joined up with a mercenary company. 

It is pretty clear that the coat thing was just the thing that triggered Mance's decision to go. If that hadn't happened he would have likely found some other reason.

That said, your assessment on Mance's origins seems to one-sided to me. He grew up among the Watch and was basically groomed to join it and take his vows. Saying he could have done something else is, while technically true, not something that would have come easy to him. And his desire for freedom and the lifestyle of the wildlings would have only blossomed, presumably, after he had become a ranger and actually ventured out in the wild to meet and interact with them on their turf. Meeting some trading wildlings at the Shadow Tower wouldn't have given him the full picture of their culture.

[JaneSnow]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

But that's the thing - physical reactions don't mean that you want to have sex now or with the person triggering that reaction. Just as Dany getting wet doesn't mean she wanted to have sex with Drogo Jon being aroused doesn't mean he wants to have sex with Ygritte. He is coerced in the whole thing, and it is actually very ugly business considering that the whole really twists him around on an emotional level, forcing him to grow to like a woman who wants to kill his friends, forcing him to take the side of a people who wants to force him to kill his own friends, too.

These people are using Jon's own biological urges against him in an attempt to make him one of their own.

Being not exactly a person who likes to stick to rules I always had a lot of sympathy for Mance's decision to desert the Watch. On a very real level Mallister really behaved like a stupid little bureaucrat there. But Jon really likes rules, honor, vows, and all this stuff. He wants to live up to the example of the perfect Eddard Stark. Trying to use a woman to twist him around wasn't exactly a nice thing to do - nor was it nice or anything from Ygritte to target this young, conflicted, inexperienced boy the way she did.

It is not as subtle or insidious as the machinations of the guys in Les Liaisons dangereuses but in a sense it is the same category. Jon Snow wasn't even remotely prepared to deal with the kind of direct and merciless advances Ygritte made.

Oh, gosh I didn't mean for it to sound like that. What I meant was its kinda of odd that aside from those two chapters that's the only time we've seen Jon really show any sort of sexual reaction to anything(I agree it was coercion and not okay at all, didn't mean for it to come out like that, I'm not always the best at expressing myself) which is a tad odd for a guy his age

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, JaneSnow said:

Oh, gosh I didn't mean for it to sound like that. What I meant was its kinda of odd that aside from those two chapters that's the only time we've seen Jon really show any sort of sexual reaction to anything(I agree it was coercion and not okay at all, didn't mean for it to come out like that, I'm not always the best at expressing myself) which is a tad odd for a guy his age

Oh, I didn't want you to give the impression you did. I just wanted to stress the fact that a man having an erection doesn't have to mean he wants to fuck the woman who happens to be in the room with him. People tend to forget that occasionally.

And I'm not trying to make Ygritte an evil woman there - what I try to point out that the whole scenario - Ygritte, the other wildlings, the situation Jon finds himself in - make it impossible for him to properly give consent to what is happening there.

And he sure as hell is confused. In the end George gives him the easy route out by causing the whole setup to explode before they reach Castle Black - or get close to it.

Jon's feelings after they have the relationship are sort of confused. He grows to like Ygritte and really enjoys their time together but they are not really deeply in love or anything. They have very little in common and it is pretty clear what makes Jon overlook Ygritte's flaws is hormone/sex-induced infatuation.

In general, I'd say Jon still has to learn what it means to be really in love. I mean, neither Melisandre nor Val or Satin is really much on his thoughts in the way that could one expect that he seriously wants to be with them as a person. There are POVs where the people are really, really in love with someone and really, really desire to be with someone - just think of Arys Oakheart's obsession for Arianne, Jaime's thoughts of Cersei (and vice versa), Tyrion's thoughts about both Shae and Tysha, etc.

Just as neither Lyanna nor Rhaegar seemed to have understood 'love' before they met each other (despite it being possible that not only Rhaegar but Lyanna, too, had some mild experiences in the romance field), Jon might only understand what love means when he meets Aunty Daenerys.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

that Mallister either didn't realize or did not care what the mended coat meant to Mance. And that shows that he wasn't really understanding the man, nor doing his best to keep him in the Watch. 

Quote

I don't see what other better response can possibly given to such an offense as ruining a good cloak by stiching red into it. This isn't even a private thing. Mance if he did this would have done it in front of multiple brothers under Malister's command. A military commander cannot simply let any of the people under shirk protocol so brazenly, in front of him and his men. 

Yes, the scarf has sentimental value to Mance; he should have stowed away, then to keep.

This situation shows Mance as being entirely at fault.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

ment on Mance's origins seems to one-sided to me. He grew up among the Watch and was basically groomed to join it and take his vows. Saying he could have done something else is, while technically true, not something that would have come easy to him. And his desire for freedom and the lifestyle of the wildlings would have only blossomed, presumably, after he had become a ranger and actually ventured out in the wild to meet and interact with them on their turf. Meeting some trading wildlings at the Shadow Tower wouldn't have given him the full picture of their culture.

I don't really see anyone pressuring him quite frankly. Most of the brothers there aren't going to be there by choice so they're going to not sing Mance praises toward the brotherhood, I don't imagine Mance would have mingled with the noble's who see the glory in the watch. He knew the reilty of the watch going in. He'd have no less choice in what to do with his life than 99% of Westeroes. Fact I see him having more options given the skills he picked up at Castle black. Hell I imagine he'd even learned how to read. I really don't feel that much sympathy for the man. Out of all the reasons to desert his by far is the weakest I've seen. Hell likely there are some men there who were guilty of no more than stealing food to feed themselves who served faithfully. Mance is a pure andrenline junkie. I will admit it probably was the best decision of Mance's life to desert.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He is coerced in the whole thing, and it is actually very ugly business considering that the whole really twists him around on an emotional level, forcing him to grow to like a woman who wants to kill his friends, forcing him to take the side of a people who wants to force him to kill his own friends, too.

Yeah, the whole way Ygritte and Jon happened was pretty icky to me. She pretty much blackmails him into having sex with her. Basically verbally abuses him when he tries to decline to get naked in the cave with her. Then she tells him how lucky he is to have her because she's a red head and gets angry with him when he doesn't morn dead giants. What's also frightening is that she tries to convert his way of thinking to hers, almost felt like she getting him to join a cult. When I take a step back and reflect on it it was all pretty strange. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Oh, gosh I didn't mean for it to sound like that. What I meant was its kinda of odd that aside from those two chapters that's the only time we've seen Jon really show any sort of sexual reaction to anything(I agree it was coercion and not okay at all, didn't mean for it to come out like that, I'm not always the best at expressing myself) which is a tad odd for a guy his age

I got your meaning-I would guess Jon hasn't been masturbating or feeling much sexual frustration because of who he is generally and because he's stressed.

[WildlingWitch]

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To be fair there is general agreement that what had happened to Daenarys at the start of her marriage with Drogo as being abusive. There's no real discussion Jon's sexual abuse by Ygritte at the behest Mance. I kinda feel it's due to the sexist belief women/girls can't really  sexually abuse abuse males especially teenage ones; Jon couldn't have been sexually abused by Ygritte because he was done so at knifepoint; never mind he's at the very least 3 years Ygritte's junior,never mind his stated discomfort to her about the idea of sleeping with her, never mind all of that; he's a male. He should want this. 

 

Actually there were a few did Ygritte rape Jon threads a few years back that I stumbled across when I was just a lurker. You could probably still find them though they've probably been  closed down by now. It gets very in depth if you want to try to find them.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, WildlingWitch said:

Actually there were a few did Ygritte rape Jon threads a few years back that I stumbled across when I was just a lurker. You could probably still find them though they've probably been  closed down by now. It gets very in depth if you want to try to find them.

My mistake.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Yeah, the whole way Ygritte and Jon happened was pretty icky to me. She pretty much blackmails him into having sex with her. Basically verbally abuses him when he tries to decline to get naked in the cave with her. Then she tells him how lucky he is to have her because she's a red head and gets angry with him when he doesn't morn dead giants. What's also frightening is that she tries to convert his way of thinking to hers, almost felt like she getting him to join a cult. When I take a step back and reflect on it it was all pretty strange. 

Yes she's manipulative, condescending and generally all and all dismissive to what  Jon wants if goes against what she wants. Textbook bad partner material. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 5/8/2018 at 9:01 AM, JaneSnow said:

I think it is interesting and worth discussing the way Jon seems to view his sexuality throughout the books. While the other boys such as Theon and Robb are fairly confident in it, especially Theon, Jon seems almost ashamed of it. He had no qualms about the chastity part of his vows, something I'm sure most boys his age would. With Ygritte, he is shy and embarrassed by her advances and although he is attracted to her he carries a lot of shame with it. A lot of this is due to his vows and his desire to never father a bastard, but he also seems disgusted by this very human part of him, as shown when he is caught in the act by the other wildings and one threatens to pour water over them if he doesn't stop and he feels as though they were like "A pair of rutting dogs" and weak. Another point he laments "If this is so wrong, why did the gods make it feel so good?" It seems as though he is unable to let himself just relax and enjoy it due to his own internal reservations. I think a lot of it has to do with because he is a bastard(Whether you believe that or R+L=J or whatever, the point is he was raised to believe it and presented as such), something that has led to his life being a bit tougher than his trueborn siblings. Bastards come about as a result of a sexually immoral act(adultery) and thus because his existence, his struggles(at least some of them) stem from sex he tends to regard the act in a negative way. Thoughts?

I think Jon's mindset is more common than you think amongst men/boys. Our culture and the media have popularized being confident and successful with women as "what it means to be a man". However, sexuality comes in a large spectrum which includes both people that are not desiring it quite so constantly as well as many who are not confident. I don't actually think many of the other characters who are "confident" were born that way. They simply exude the personality expected by their society. I actually think Theon is mostly all talk. Inside he just wants to be a Stark and wants to be loved and accepted as "strong", "smart", or "good" by his friends and family (both his real one and his adopted one). Jon also took Eddard's words to heart, and has a basic respect for all women that most men in ASOIAF are lacking. Again, this is part of their society, but one that Eddard, amd therefore Jon and Robb, rejected. I mark Jon as almost normal compared to other sexually crazed male characters in the books (Robert, Tyrion, other rapey characters). 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 5/13/2018 at 9:15 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You know, @Lord Varys may a pretty good case that Mance tasked Ygritte and Tommen of getting Jon to fall for Ygritte-hench the forced sleeping together with the girl and the instance by both she's his wife. It makes sense Mance would want to humanize the wildlings in Jon's eyes as much he can given the boys connection to the Starks and how so obviously favored by them.

Wait are you suggesting to strengthen the alliance literally through allowing black brothers to marry wildling women? I can only see problems with that. Chiefly,  a lot of the black brothers deciding to take up the wildling's favored custom of kidnapping women and forcibly marrying her. Yes, I'm sure the women won't particularly mind(this is what is to be expected of them), if done "fairly" but after the first few brothers gets severly injured, the brothers will stop playing fair, and I imagine if the wife has a  husband, the brothers would create another feud between the watch and wildlings. And yeah, although not something that will insure the destruction of the, every new mouth to feed stretches the already sparse food supply thinner. Every little bit helps. But I'm sure families/women realize this and will take the appropriate actions and find a woodswitch should they face a pregnancy..The alliance is strong so long as land and salvation are offered; they do not need to grow more friendly toward each other. Well that and leave them their gods.

I assume you meant Tormund? If so yes. That theory is pretty well supported. I'd not say I'm totally convinced but it is compelling. 

I think you've misunderstood my use of the word Marry. I meant marry as in join two things together not the legally binding religious contract between a man and a woman.  I suppose I could have used the word Merge to better convey my meaning. 

I think that when all's said and done people won't be as committed to upholding the no sexual relationships for NW men vows in the face of the possible end of all life on planetos.  And yes Moontea is something most wildling women will be familiar with and if they don't know the recipe themselves there are woodswitches within the groups. 

I don't think Jon having a sexual relationship means he'll allow rape. But I do think it might happen. I mean there is a reason why GRRM included Dany Flint in the folkloric tales. When an institutionalised group of men are mixed with women rape is a common occurrence.  Just a very quick google suggests that 1 in 4 military personal are sexually assaulted. And that the figure within the armed forces; not society as a whole, is about the same regardless of sex.

But this is Westeros not the real world and whilst GRRM has represented rape as a tactic of war and the systematic rape and abuse of males by males during war time, he has not chosen the NW as an institution in which to demonstrate that.  But he has given us the tragic story of Dany Flint and Jon has shown awareness of the potential for this problem. So I'd not be surprised if him having to  deal with that crime doesn't crop up in the next books.  Seeing the potential for problems doesn't mean Jon won't make mistakes or that his men will all follow the rules, or that allowing the breaking of the rules won't legitimise rape in the minds of the many NW men who are at the wall for precisely that crime. But equally nor does it mean all NW brothers will go on a rape frenzy fuelled by the sudden freedom from the celibacy vow. Some will remain celibate, some will have consensual sexual relations and yes some will probably rape. And Jon will have to deal with that as he see's fit. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I don't think Jon having a sexual relationship means he'll allow rape. But I do think it might happen. I mean there is a reason why GRRM included Dany Flint in the folkloric tales. When an institutionalised group of men are mixed with women rape is a common occurrence.  Just a very quick google suggests that 1 in 4 military personal are sexually assaulted. And that the figure within the armed forces; not society as a whole, is about the same regardless of sex.

We do see Jon going out of his way to make sure Val is safe in her tower, with a giant guarding her. Though he is more worried about Stannis' men then NW brothers, because of the Princess and Winterfell thing linked to Val on top of her being very attractive. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

24 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

We do see Jon going out of his way to make sure Val is safe in her tower, with a giant guarding her. Though he is more worried about Stannis' men then NW brothers, because of the Princess and Winterfell thing linked to Val on top of her being very attractive. 

I don't think the probablity of rapes happening at the wall relates to Val. I was meaning more like the wildling women as a group. SHe's unlikely to be attacked by the NW men. Given that she is clearly high status and well protected. Victims are chosen based on accsess and likelyhood of getting away with it. 

The Queens men are after her yes, but not one of them has the abillity to get to her. She'd probably slit his ball sack open for him. 

But yes this and moving the women to their own tower all show that Jon is aware this could become a problem. Wether he can realistically keep his men in line is another matter. And allowing consensual relationships does not equate to allowing rape. I think Jon will face yet another challenging lesson here. One in which teh NW as an institution becomes increasingly unviable and in which it becomes obvious changes are going to have to happen if these two groups are to band together against the greater foe. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

 I think that when all's said and done people won't be as committed to upholding the no sexual relationships for NW men vows in the face of the possible end of all life on planetos.  And yes Moontea is something most wildling women will be familiar with and if they don't know the recipe themselves there are woodswitches within the groups. 

No one's really been committed to upholding the celibacy clause for quite some time; Jeor was allowed his men to seek out sex workers in Mole's town to fufill their carnal desires and no ones really tried  suggest bringing any punishment for doing so. 

 

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I don't think Jon having a sexual relationship means he'll allow rape. But I do think it might happen. I mean there is a reason why GRRM included Dany Flint in the folkloric tales. When an institutionalised group of men are mixed with women rape is a common occurrence.  Just a very quick google suggests that 1 in 4 military personal are sexually assaulted. And that the figure within the armed forces; not society as a whole, is about the same regardless of sex.

Whoah! Who said anything about Jon allowing rape? I said many of the brothers would honest to god tempted to try into engage in kidnapping women of to have sex with under the idea they won't mind-admitably wildlings have a might is right view of the world -if you're strong enough to take it you deserve it-this train thought not exclude sex. Many of the brothers although willl mock these savages will still see it as a no brainier since there is really no sharp difference between how wildlings see rape and consenting sex, the women won't really mind it

 

 The true problem arises when these women (because they're culture commands), fights back. Jon wildly underestimated the risks of intergrating a female fighting force; mainly when a brother is killed, or seriously wounded in his attempt to get satisfaction from one of these women the non-wildling watchmen are going to get inflamed-likely accuse the girl of slitting the brother's throat when he failed to be seduced by the savage temptress that murdered him. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 14, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Lord Varys said:

And I'm not trying to make Ygritte an evil woman there - what I try to point out that the whole scenario - Ygritte, the other wildlings, the situation Jon finds himself in - make it impossible for him to properly give consent to what is happening there.

I don't think the word evil could describe Ygritte-she is merely the sum of her culture, and it's mores in regards to sex does not prioritize consent. Jon can no more have given consent to the first time he and Ygritte had sex than a slave can give consent to her master to bed her-it's simply not her choice. Jon did have a sexual attraction toward Ygritte true(which many have used in her defense), but by mere fact of having such an attraction is not itself a sighn of consent. I'm reminded of this scene from MAD Men;

 

The woman and question does have a sexual attraction to the man, in fact he's her fiancé. It's clear she desires him and would like to have sex with him. Those things however don't make it so that when she says "no" or "stop" less of a big deal than if was a ugly stranger who forced her to have sex than her handsome fiancée.