Jump to content
AlaerysTargaryen

Foreshadowing the true king, a new clue I haven't seen referenced before.

Recommended Posts

I'm currently rereading AGOT, after a long time and it's definitely delightful to encounter so many hints and seeds of future plotlines that flew over my head the first couple of times I read the book. There are many quotes foreshadowing Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron throne, particularly mindblowing, this one from Arya in dialogue with Jon in AGOT, when he is not permitted to sparr with Joffey and Robb:

Why aren't you down in the yard?" Arya asked him. He gave her a half smile. "Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes" he said. "Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords."

Another great one:

"Kings are a rare sight in the north." Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

 

Getting to the point, I think I've come across another one that I've never seen mentioned before.

Robert sat down again. "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."(AGOT, Edward VII)

Eddard Stark , being the closest highborn relative to the rigful king, would've become Regent until Jon came of age. Perhaps Ned should've climbed those steps an sit on the Iron throne as Cersei tells him when the twincest is revealed. Such a Sad mistake.

That's all, folks.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."(AGOT, Edward VII)

Eddard Stark , being the closest highborn relative to the rigful king, would've become Regent until Jon came of age. Perhaps Ned should've climbed those steps an sit on the Iron throne as Cersei tells him when the twincest is revealed. Such a Sad mistake.

That's a good one.:cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

 

Robert sat down again. "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."(AGOT, Edward VII)

Eddard Stark , being the closest highborn relative to the rigful king, would've become Regent until Jon came of age. Perhaps Ned should've climbed those steps an sit on the Iron throne as Cersei tells him when the twincest is revealed. Such a Sad mistake.

That's all, folks.

 

Jon Arryn* 

But yea the author purposely made it interchangeable. Everyone's a Robert and a Jon. 

 

 

Sad that nobody figured out his 2 other brothers had as much as Targaryen blood as he did himself....

Edited by Frey Kings

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But was the purpose of the rebellion to depose Aerys or to end the Targaryen Dynasty? I'd say it was the former at first, and Ned had no desire to be King. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

 

Robert sat down again. "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."(AGOT, Edward VII)

Eddard Stark , being the closest highborn relative to the rigful king, would've become Regent until Jon came of age. Perhaps Ned should've climbed those steps an sit on the Iron throne as Cersei tells him when the twincest is revealed. Such a Sad mistake.

That's all, folks.

 

Nice! :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I'm currently rereading AGOT, after a long time and it's definitely delightful to encounter so many hints and seeds of future plotlines that flew over my head the first couple of times I read the book. There are many quotes foreshadowing Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron throne, particularly mindblowing, this one from Arya in dialogue with Jon in AGOT, when he is not permitted to sparr with Joffey and Robb:

Why aren't you down in the yard?" Arya asked him. He gave her a half smile. "Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes" he said. "Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords."

Another great one:

"Kings are a rare sight in the north." Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

 

Getting to the point, I think I've come across another one that I've never seen mentioned before.

Robert sat down again. "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."(AGOT, Edward VII)

Eddard Stark , being the closest highborn relative to the rigful king, would've become Regent until Jon came of age. Perhaps Ned should've climbed those steps an sit on the Iron throne as Cersei tells him when the twincest is revealed. Such a Sad mistake.

That's all, folks.

 

Wow. This is cool. I noticed the first one you said when I was reading, but not the second. Good find. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had the same reaction when I read that passage.  On the surface, it means one thing, Ned and then Jon Arryn.  Of course, there is a subtext that it should have been Ned as regent and then Jon Snow.   I'm reminded of Ned's thought about Sansa revealing Joffrey's parentage, when she says she would give him sons with gold hair.  He puts two and two together from Sansa's naive, but revealing statement.  Robert's statement about 'Ned and Jon' seems to fall into that same category, but it's the reader who is meant to question the meaning.  Robert is referring to the Iron Throne, but we also have a new situation with the King in the North, which seems more relevant to me.  So yes, I think it's foreshadowing of some kind.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course the real beauty about the passage where Jon is not allowed to spar with Joffrey is the double irony and the fact that the reason for the two not being allowed to spar remains legitimate when the truth is revealed, only in the opposite direction than intended.

Namely that Joffrey is the one whose sword is not allowed to bruise Jon, since Joffrey is in fact bastard born and Jon is a trueborn prince.

Delicious little quote, that one, with several layers of meaning. One of my personal favourites.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Of course the real beauty about the passage where Jon is not allowed to spar with Joffrey is the double irony and the fact that the reason for the two not being allowed to spar remains legitimate when the truth is revealed, only in the opposite direction than intended.

Namely that Joffrey is the one whose sword is not allowed to bruise Jon, since Joffrey is in fact bastard born and Jon is a trueborn prince.

Delicious little quote, that one, with several layers of meaning. One of my personal favourites.

George is smart and people have interpreted theories in basically every line.

Edited by Brynden Blackfyre
Grammer man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm... I think it's very unlikely given the lack of familiarity that Robert has for Jon Snow at other times. He dismissively refers to Jon as "your bastard" to Ned, which isn't exactly the sort of thing he'd say.

And there's no indication that he knows anything about Jon's character, so there's no reason that he'd make such a statement.

I think that it refers to Jon Arryn and nothing more. Jon Snow is named for Jon Arryn (at least, his fake name is, not whatever Lyanna called him), but I just can't see there being anything further to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Yukle said:

And there's no indication that he knows anything about Jon's character, so there's no reason that he'd make such a statement.

I think that it refers to Jon Arryn and nothing more. Jon Snow is named for Jon Arryn (at least, his fake name is, not whatever Lyanna called him), but I just can't see there being anything further to it.

Of course Bob has no idea about Jon. And yes Bob is referring to Jon Arryn. 

But George knew that some readers would notice this on subsequent readings of GoT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brynden Blackfyre said:

George is smart and people have interpreted theories in basically every line.

I’m not sure I follow.

Are you disputing either that Jon is a prince or that Joffrey is a bastard? If not, this interpration is not theory, it is fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2018 at 5:48 AM, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I'm currently rereading AGOT, after a long time and it's definitely delightful to encounter so many hints and seeds of future plotlines that flew over my head the first couple of times I read the book. There are many quotes foreshadowing Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron throne, particularly mindblowing, this one from Arya in dialogue with Jon in AGOT, when he is not permitted to sparr with Joffey and Robb:

Why aren't you down in the yard?" Arya asked him. He gave her a half smile. "Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes" he said. "Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords."

Another great one:

"Kings are a rare sight in the north." Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

 

Getting to the point, I think I've come across another one that I've never seen mentioned before.

Robert sat down again. "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."(AGOT, Edward VII)

Eddard Stark , being the closest highborn relative to the rigful king, would've become Regent until Jon came of age. Perhaps Ned should've climbed those steps an sit on the Iron throne as Cersei tells him when the twincest is revealed. Such a Sad mistake.

That's all, folks.

 

Jon might still be a bastard, just Raegar's bastard. So he would not have been the rightful king anyway, meaning it would have passed to Viserys if the Targaryens had not been usurped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KingMudd said:

Jon might still be a bastard, just Raegar's bastard. So he would not have been the rightful king anyway, meaning it would have passed to Viserys if the Targaryens had not been usurped.

This is an important point. We don't know--we can speculate based on textual hints, but we don't know. And even if Rhaegar did take Lyanna as his second, concurrent wife, I would think many (outside the Iron Islands, of course) would consider Jon to be little more than a bastard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This is an important point. We don't know--we can speculate based on textual hints, but we don't know. And even if Rhaegar did take Lyanna as his second, concurrent wife, I would think many (outside the Iron Islands, of course) would consider Jon to be little more than a bastard. 

Unless before marrying with Lyanna, he has divorced with Elia. And I even see a reason, why Elia would have agreed to it.

As Rhaegar has said, shortly after Aegon's birth - there should be one more. But then he received news from maesters, that Elia is unable to bear children. Rhaegar believed in the prophecy, same as his father and grandfather. Three generations of Targaryens suffered a lot, because of that prophecy, because they tried to fulfil it.

Jaehaerys forced his son and daughter to marry, even though they didn't loved each other, and furthermore it's possible, that Rhaella at that time loved someone else. Furthermore Jaehaerys' father, Aegon V, also was against it. So Jaehaerys, for what he did, was hated by his children and his father.

Aerys and Rhaella lived for over 20 years in a very unhappy marriage.

Rhaegar wasn't interested in being a warior or a knight. He was more like Sam, only with better genetics, which made him pretty, and prevented him from gaining excessive weight (or maybe he wasn't overeating, as a means against stress, like Sam did). But eventually, because of the prophecy, Rhaegar forced himself to become a knight, and furthermore even succeded in becoming a great knight. To fit into the profile of the promised Prince, Rhaegar had to break the very core of what he was. He made himself to become someone else. He suffered because of that, for the rest of his life.

So it's likely, that when Rhaegar came to Elia, and said to her, that he needs one more child, but she is unable to give it to him, she agreed to give him divorce, and let him marry with another woman, that will give him that child. Because she respected and cherished him, so she didn't wanted him to break himself even more, and to become an adulterer, just to have one more child, because that would have went against his nature, same as becoming a knight. So divorce was a good solution for that problem. Even if Rhaegar's second wife would have given birth to a boy, still Elia's Aegon was first in line of inheritance. So eventually, he and not Lyanna's son, would have became King of 7K. 

Thus it's possible, that Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate child, and Rhaegar's marriage with Lyanna is as valid, as was his marriage with Elia. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Unless before marrying with Lyanna, he has divorced with Elia. And I even see a reason, why Elia would have agreed to it.

As Rhaegar has said, shortly after Aegon's birth - there should be one more. But then he received news from maesters, that Elia is unable to bear children. Rhaegar believed in the prophecy, same as his father and grandfather. Three generations of Targaryens suffered a lot, because of that prophecy, because they tried to fulfil it.

Jaehaerys forced his son and daughter to marry, even though they didn't loved each other, and furthermore it's possible, that Rhaella at that time loved someone else. Furthermore Jaehaerys' father, Aegon V, also was against it. So Jaehaerys, for what he did, was hated by his children and his father.

Aerys and Rhaella lived for over 20 years in a very unhappy marriage.

Rhaegar wasn't interested in being a warior or a knight. He was more like Sam, only with better genetics, which made him pretty, and prevented him from gaining excessive weight (or maybe he wasn't overeating, as a means against stress, like Sam did). But eventually, because of the prophecy, Rhaegar forced himself to become a knight, and furthermore even succeded in becoming a great knight. To fit into the profile of the promised Prince, Rhaegar had to break the very core of what he was. He made himself to become someone else. He suffered because of that, for the rest of his life.

So it's likely, that when Rhaegar came to Elia, and said to her, that he needs one more child, but she is unable to give it to him, she agreed to give him divorce, and let him marry with another woman, that will give him that child. Because she respected and cherished him, so she didn't wanted him to break himself even more, and to become an adulterer, just to have one more child, because that would have went against his nature, same as becoming a knight. So divorce was a good solution for that problem. Even if Rhaegar's second wife would have given birth to a boy, still Elia's Aegon was first in line of inheritance. So eventually, he and not Lyanna's son, would have became King of 7K. 

Thus it's possible, that Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate child, and Rhaegar's marriage with Lyanna is as valid, as was his marriage with Elia. 

True, but all we can do at this time is speculate and recognize that any theories we construct, which assume that Jon is the legitimate, trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen could be a house of cards. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like both of those, but my favorite was always this:

Quote

"He needs to make some haste. It's getting colder, can't you feel it? We need to get below Snow before the sun goes down."

From Alayne's second chapter in Feast, and it's not one I've seen mentioned in my time lurking here. 

 

As for the legitimacy thing, I always found it odd that Rheagar and Elia (a sickly woman and a man from a family known for stillbirths and sickly children) had a healthy boy conceived at the same time as Ashara and Stark (When from what we've seen of the Starks tend to have lots of healthy children) had a sickly girl, and both mothers were rumored to be on Dragonstone so I have suspected a baby swap to buy time, and a marriage contract between Rheanys and Lyanna and Rheagars first born son. (hence why the Dornish then wanted a marriage with Visery's when they believed Rheagar never had the other child he planned for, it also explains Neds reaction and the timing of Ashara's suicide, but I know it's not a popular idea :)...)

Edited by Azarial
adding more detail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×