Foreshadowing the true king, a new clue I haven't seen referenced before.

[Brynden Blackfyre]

13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I’m not sure I follow.

Are you disputing either that Jon is a prince or that Joffrey is a bastard? If not, this interpration is not theory, it is fact.

So sure?

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 5/8/2018 at 10:18 AM, AlaerysTargaryen said:

There are many quotes foreshadowing Jon being the rightful heir to the Iron throne, particularly mindblowing, this one from Arya in dialogue with Jon in AGOT, when he is not permitted to sparr with Joffey and Robb:

Actually, no. Rhaegar was the crown prince but he dies before becoming king. Aerys the Mad then names Viserys crown prince. So when GoT begins, if there's a "rightful" king, it would be Viserys. Following his death later in GoT, Dany becomes the heir because presumably Viserys names her heir. Jon is a prince, but he is still only half a Targ. And if (f)Aegon is actually who he says he is, then he would be Jon's elder brother and higher up in line to claim the throne. 

But none of this really matters. The Targs were usurped. So the rightful king would legally be the next person to conquer Westeros and claim the throne. So far, Cersei has a hold of the throne, but we know that won't last long. 

I think Jon is now the rightful heir to the throne of the North, given that he is the oldest surviving Stark male. However, he took the oath of the NW, so he is not eligible for any throne regardless of his heritage. He shall be a man of the NW until all his days end (being "dead" is carefully left out of the oath). 

17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This is an important point. We don't know--we can speculate based on textual hints, but we don't know. And even if Rhaegar did take Lyanna as his second, concurrent wife, I would think many (outside the Iron Islands, of course) would consider Jon to be little more than a bastard. 

But aren't Westerosi already used to Targs taking more than one wife? Both of Aegon's sons were kings and no one called the younger Maegor a bastard. We Rhaegar took Lyanna to wife, then Westerosi would have to accept that marriage. 

On 5/11/2018 at 10:50 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Of course the real beauty about the passage where Jon is not allowed to spar with Joffrey is the double irony and the fact that the reason for the two not being allowed to spar remains legitimate when the truth is revealed, only in the opposite direction than intended.

Namely that Joffrey is the one whose sword is not allowed to bruise Jon, since Joffrey is in fact bastard born and Jon is a trueborn prince.

Haha, good one. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

But aren't Westerosi already used to Targs taking more than one wife? Both of Aegon's sons were kings and no one called the younger Maegor a bastard. We Rhaegar took Lyanna to wife, then Westerosi would have to accept that marriage. 

When Maegor tried to carry on polygamy, the Faith revolted. No Targaryen before Rhaegar did it after Maegor. Only on the Iron Islands do we see see a form of legal polygamy in the form of rock and salt wives, with the sons of salt wives having a secondary legal status above the status of a bastard. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 5/12/2018 at 4:03 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

When Maegor tried to carry on polygamy, the Faith revolted. No Targaryen before Rhaegar did it after Maegor. Only on the Iron Islands do we see see a form of legal polygamy in the form of rock and salt wives, with the sons of salt wives having a secondary legal status above the status of a bastard. 

Yes but Maegor was cruel. By the time he realized he is infertile, people already hated him for his sadism. I suppose the later Targs didn't need to take more than one wife because they didn't need to. If there are multiple male siblings, there would be problems if one brother took two or three sisters to wife. 

And GRRM has said that if you have dragons, you can have as many wives as you want. 

Also, the Faith is not necessarily the people. The Faith have always had problems with Targs incest marriages. But the people don't have similar problems. Considering that Rhaegar was widely liked (even Tywin likes him), him taking a second wife wouldn't have caused a major ruckus. 

[norwaywolf123]

On 5/11/2018 at 7:20 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Of course the real beauty about the passage where Jon is not allowed to spar with Joffrey is the double irony and the fact that the reason for the two not being allowed to spar remains legitimate when the truth is revealed, only in the opposite direction than intended.

Namely that Joffrey is the one whose sword is not allowed to bruise Jon, since Joffrey is in fact bastard born and Jon is a trueborn prince.

Delicious little quote, that one, with several layers of meaning. One of my personal favourites.

Joffrey is only a bastard if society recognises him as such, and Jon is only a trueborn prince if society recognises him as such. Joffrey is only a trueborn prince if society recognises him as such, and Jon is only a bastard if society recognises him as such. 

While these terms have been given meaning and does describe something. These terms are used by humans who are not all knowing. While the terms might have a short and never changing description, it is up to the humans to accept these terms and their descriptions.

[norwaywolf123]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:07 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

But aren't Westerosi already used to Targs taking more than one wife? Both of Aegon's sons were kings and no one called the younger Maegor a bastard. We Rhaegar took Lyanna to wife, then Westerosi would have to accept that marriage. 

It is a long time since Aegon the conqueror and Maegor the Cruel. Also they both had dragons. Maegor also saw revolts against him, many of whom were headed by the Faith of the Seven who denounce polygamy.