Rickon lives - Jon as regent

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 5/9/2018 at 10:52 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

 

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he also names Shireen his heir and commands Massey to continue the fight in he name should he die, so assuming the IB knows it’s business (which, yeah they clearly do) the obligation to pay the Throne’s debts would also bind her

Thanks for that reminder. So in that case after he dies those left at the wall are obliged to take carry out his wishes in that respect.  I'll have to think carefully about how that outcome impacts upon what I think will be the end play between Sansa and LF at WF.  I Suppose ultimately it all comes down to how far into the book they make the move north and what has played out up there in the meantime. We do know Shireen will be burnt eventually. And one assumes that will put an end to Stannis's promises to the IB.  What happens to her in the meantime though? I wonder if Davos might try to betroth her to Rickon when he returns north to find his King is dead? It could unite Stannis's debts with WF and the Starks. Eugh oh. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 5/9/2018 at 7:09 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

All men must die, but the lie that is the Blue eyed king that casts no shadow will be slain by the Mother of Dragons and her wee bairn...

Davos V, Storm 54

Sorry, I'm not getting you? Being a bit dim so can you explain further for me? Thanks. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Sorry, I'm not getting you? Being a bit dim so can you explain further for me? Thanks. 

The blue eyed king prophecy suggests that Daenerys will slay Stannis, at least that's my take--there is a good argument that she will just slay the lie that he is Azor Ahai reborn. But Stannis also has a vision that he will burn, and Drogon is pretty good at that kind of thing. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The blue eyed king prophecy suggests that Daenerys will slay Stannis, at least that's my take--there is a good argument that she will just slay the lie that he is Azor Ahai reborn. But Stannis also has a vision that he will burn, and Drogon is pretty good at that kind of thing. 

Would you mind giving quotes. I've never considered Dany killing Stannis so am interested in seeing the wording so I can consider it. 

[Pikachu101]

Rickon is a goldmine, he's 4 which means whoever's regent gets unlimited power over the North, Riverlands and possibly Vale. I highly doubt Northern lords would make way for his bastard brother, especially since Cat's family is alive and kicking. 

I do believe Manderly's hoping to be regent as he's the one who found their king, but I can see Sansa intervening because she knows what it's like to be a pawn for adults. Also there's Brynden and Edmure who will want to be the regent of Catelyn's only living son. 

Sorry OP, I just can't see a scenario where Jon will be allowed to be regent.

[Nowy Tends]

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

 Also there's Brynden and Edmure who will want to be the regent of Catelyn's only living son. 

Brynden and Edmure are a bit busy at the moment and it's not guaranteed they survive the havoc in the Riverlands…

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Would you mind giving quotes. I've never considered Dany killing Stannis so am interested in seeing the wording so I can consider it. 

Here...

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a womans name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A clothdragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Daenerys IV, Clash 48

Quote

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?"

Davos V, Storm 54

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 5/9/2018 at 2:09 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

All men must die, but the lie that is the Blue eyed king that casts no shadow will be slain by the Mother of Dragons and her wee bairn...

Davos V, Storm 54

I have a different take on this. Stannis is not the one who is telling the lies. He is only parroting what Melisandre has been telling him. She said he was the PtwP and gave him a shiny sword and he believes her. 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I have a different take on this. Stannis is not the one who is telling the lies. He is only parroting what Melisandre has been telling him. She said he was the PtwP and gave him a shiny sword and he believes her. 

My take is that Dany will slay the actual lie - Stannis isn't AAR - not the liar. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

My take is that Dany will slay the actual lie - Stannis isn't AAR - not the liar. 

We're saying the same thing. I'm massively against (f)Aegon's death tbh, but she can have at Illyrio and Varys.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I have a different take on this. Stannis is not the one who is telling the lies. He is only parroting what Melisandre has been telling him. She said he was the PtwP and gave him a shiny sword and he believes her. 

I like this. I hope Dany will kill Mel and show Stannis the truth. Then she can put cousin Stannis' roughly 33% Targaryen blood to use and have him ride one of her dragons to help save the world. Then Stannis will finally soar like Proudwing would have if Robert didn't bully him. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I like this. I hope Dany will kill Mel and show Stannis the truth. Then she can put cousin Stannis' roughly 33% Targaryen blood to use and have him ride one of her dragons to help save the world. Then Stannis will finally soar like Proudwing would have if Robert didn't bully him. 

Is there any direct evidence in the text that Robert bullied him?

[Pikachu101]

20 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

it's not guaranteed they survive the havoc in the Riverlands

Well Brynden escaped Riverrun before Jaime seized it, if he hears about Catelyn's son the North is the first place he'd go

[Alexis-something-Rose]

26 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Well Brynden escaped Riverrun before Jaime seized it, if he hears about Catelyn's son the North is the first place he'd go

If he survives the prologue of WoW, which fingers crossed he does. 

[Lord Varys]

Regardless whether Rickon lives or dies - I'm pretty sure he'll live for the time being, though, considering the whole Skagos story - Wyman Manderly is not likely going to act as regent in his name. For one, the man is a fat man unable to ride a horse, surrounded by Bolton men with only a retinue of 300 knights most of whom are about to leave Winterfell now to fight against Stannis (or rather: the Freys).

Then there is the fact that Ser Hosteen Frey cut through a couple of the man's chins - which is a pretty serious wound even if we assume that Hosteen doesn't routinely smear shit on his sword to ensure any wounds he deals his enemies fester afterwards (which seems to be something the Freys are wont to do).

Even if Wyman doesn't die of his wound it is likely going to shorten his life span considerably. Regardless whether Roose or Ramsay get around to kill the fat man before they bite the dust Wyman might not live long enough to see Rickon's return from Skagos.

That allows for the possibility that Wylis Manderly, Lord Wyman's heir and likely successor, may try to take such a position, but the Manderlys are not the universally accepted second house in the North. They are influential and the big guys in their corner of the North, but there are other Northmen out there who would challenge the Manderlys if they were to make such a power grab. The Greatjon first among them if he returned unbroken from the Twins.

And if Stannis lives for the time being it is pretty clear, I think, that he would arrange a betrothal for young Lord Rickon (perhaps with Wylla Manderly or even his own daughter, Shireen) and then name a Protector of the North to take charge of young lord. That would likely be a Northman he has learned to trust - perhaps one of the clansmen, perhaps Robett Glover or even a Manderly.

But on their own the Northmen are far to belligerent and quarrelsome to come to choose a universally accepted regent for a King Rickon - in a scenario where Stannis dies and the North tries to continue its foolish secessionist thing.

Giving such a position to Jon Snow would also be very strange. The man is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. And if he turned out to be its former commander then such a man would be clearly too controversial to end being the accepted de facto ruler of the North. Not to mention that he is still a very young man himself.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is there any direct evidence in the text that Robert bullied him?

He called him "weakwing" 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I personally don't think Wyman Manderly went to Winterfell thinking that he would leave there alive. I don't think he's looking to be regent or anything like that. And he waited to secure the release of his son before he set his plans into motion. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 5/13/2018 at 9:18 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Here...

Daenerys IV, Clash 48

Davos V, Storm 54

Thank you. 

I agree the quote does mean she will slay the lie that Stannis is AAR. Her slaying the lie though doesn't mean she will directly kill him we need to be careful here not to make assumptions which are false. She'll slay the lie that Stannis is AAR, and she'll slay the lie that fAegon is a True born Targaryen, and she'll slay whatever lie the shadow breathing beast represents too.  But no where does it imply she will directly kill each person herself. The lie is that he is AAR, or that he is the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen, third one I have no idea I suspect something to do with Euron, or maybe Jon with the lie being his bastardy and currently believed parentage. Tower = ToJ.him bursting forth as a beast= warg.breathing shadow flame = his dragon blood is hidden/in shadow.

just spinning first thoughts there. I'll be honest Dany isn't someone I think about often so I often have not dissected every word of her chapters like I have others. 

 

Stannis could be said to be slain by her already. I mean she did wake dragons from stone, he can't be AAR if she already is. Right? Him being proven false by the very fact she has enacted the prophesy is what Aemon realises just before he dies as well isn't it. 

Last thought, Did Stannis see Viserys getting the crown of melted gold in the flames? Totally random fire vision maybe? I know the traditional interpretation is that he is seeing himself being consumed by the desire for the crown. And he knows his path will kill him but chooses it anyway. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Thank you. 

You betcha. 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I agree the quote does mean she will slay the lie that Stannis is AAR. Her slaying the lie though doesn't mean she will directly kill him we need to be careful here not to make assumptions which are false. She'll slay the lie that Stannis is AAR, and she'll slay the lie that fAegon is a True born Targaryen, and she'll slay whatever lie the shadow breathing beast represents too.  But no where does it imply she will directly kill each person herself. The lie is that he is AAR, or that he is the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen, third one I have no idea I suspect something to do with Euron, or maybe Jon with the lie being his bastardy and currently believed parentage. Tower = ToJ.him bursting forth as a beast= warg.breathing shadow flame = his dragon blood is hidden/in shadow.

I couldn't agree more. I assume that she will kill Stannis and Aegon, directly, like she killed Krazy me Dragonchow in Astapor, or in a dragon fight, or indirectly. I am assuming this based on Stannis's interpretation of his vision that he will burn, and the theory that Daenerys and Aegon will fight in a second Dance of the Dragons. 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

just spinning first thoughts there. I'll be honest Dany isn't someone I think about often so I often have not dissected every word of her chapters like I have others. 

Stannis could be said to be slain by her already. I mean she did wake dragons from stone, he can't be AAR if she already is. Right? Him being proven false by the very fact she has enacted the prophesy is what Aemon realises just before he dies as well isn't it. 

Absolutely, it's a good argument. 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Last thought, Did Stannis see Viserys getting the crown of melted gold in the flames? Totally random fire vision maybe? I know the traditional interpretation is that he is seeing himself being consumed by the desire for the crown. And he knows his path will kill him but chooses it anyway. 

Yes, some folks believe the king Stannis saw  burning could have been Viserys, or the Mance. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, some folks believe the king Stannis saw  burning could have been Viserys, or the Mance. 

I never realised this before. But yes it is a posibillity isn't it. I always assumed it meant he'd be consumed by his desire to be king. That it would destroy him.