How would Ser Davos react to Stannis giving Shireen to the flames?

[The Fattest Leech]

35 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I do not doubt you heard what you heard or read what you read. I am questioning the source of what you read or heard.

I’m guessing the reveal tag information implies Stannis returns to the Wall. Or Mel, Selyse, Shirleen and the retinue/entourage leave CB to seek out Stannis.

 

Anything is possible. Maybe the Banker and his entourage arrive back CB with him saying, “Dead, no Stannis was alive when I left him.”  Massey says, “Dead you say. Shirleen, come here girl, your father said I was to see to it that you sit the throne.”

It would be interesting if someone could dig up martin voicing his opinion --- did he say I intend Shirleen to die or did he say I intend Shirleen be burned (at Stannis’ comand)?

Curious, I am.   It seems to be a bit wonky considering LC Snow’s state of limbo.

 

 

The only thing I know of is this...

Spoiler

Mr Showrunner (not sure which is which) says many funny things that are factually wrong about his own show, but in there Mr Showrunner says something vague about "when Martin told us about this...", not “Stannis burns Shireen.” 

Maybe someone else has a direct quote from the author himself? If so, please share.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 1:10 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stannis would not let the people who killed his only heir to escape justice. end of story 

It is this simple.  Book Stannis will NOT consent to Shireen's burning, and even for a minute let's say he did, the OP was about if Stannis found out it happened without his consent but was satisfied with how things turned out for him... uhh, he is already king and it isn't necessarily so that her sacrifice led to his victories while away from Mel and Selyse, so yeah they are going to get Stannis' justice swiftly.  And even in the preposterous case that Stannis was okay with it as posed in the OP, Davos would leave his service.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Davos would leave his service.

Unlikely. Stannis is per Davos's words is his God(yes I know the context of the words being a way to deflect from the question of what God), He stayed with Stannis when he burned the seven, after he took serious thought to burning his nephew, and even when imprisoned by Manderly, when thinking of himself possibly being tortured doing it in such a way that won't shame his master. I believe he'd stay and try to fix him.

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Davos would leave his service.

I agree. Said it on page two.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I believe he'd stay and try to fix him.

Are you saying Davos is co-dependent?

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I do not doubt you heard what you heard or read what you read. I am questioning the source of what you read or heard.

Again, GRRM was asked about the Shireen scene on his NAB years ago when the season in question came out. And he revealed it that he hadn't written that scene yet. He refused to comment on it further than that but he confirmed that this scene is going to come and that he hadn't written it at that point.

Now what does this mean?

Spoiler

Dumb and Dumber confirmed that Shireen being burned goes back to GRRM. They told us that he, George, told them about that particular development. Thus it is a given that Shireen is going to burn. There is no longer a question about that.

Is it possible that these guys got some convoluted mess of a plot from George in which people like Melisandre, Selyse, Ser Axell, Val, etc. come up with some weird reason as to why Shireen Baratheon has to burn, didn't like that all that much, and then decided to change it so that Stannis burns his own daughter?

Sure, that is theoretically possible.

But what we have to ask ourselves what is the most likely scenario coming from George. What is the most heart-breaking outcome, what the deepest betrayal, what the most satisfying plot from a story-telling POV?

And there the idea that Stannis Baratheon - this self-proclaimed 'just man' - goes so low as to sacrifice his only child is much more satisfying then having some secondary characters or extras do this.

This is what we can expect from George. There is no question about that. What he has to do is deliver it properly, in a scenario where such an heinous act makes sense within in the narrative framework of the story. Which it never did in the Dumb & Dumber setting.

The reason why people run around believing that Shireen has to burn soon is also because of that blasted show thing. But there is no reason to believe Shireen will die soon. If that was the case she would be with her father right now. Or George would have written that scene already, considering it would happen pretty soon after the Prologue of TWoW.

If you ask me, Shireen might still be alive and kicking by the time TWoW ends (although one would assume she is likely going to be very cold). It depends how far the story is going to progress in that book.

I mean, right now Stannis is snowbound and pretty much fucked, but the man seems to be rather happy and is completely in control of the situation. He isn't afraid, nor is he desperate. He is looking forward to deal with the Boltons. He has to be at a completely different place to even contemplate sacrificing his only child.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The reason why people ran around believing that Shireen has to burn soon is also because of that blasted show thing. But there is no reason to believe Shireen will die soon.

Agreed.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

That is actually the reason why I think Stannis' last sacrifice - the one Melisandre is never going to see coming - will be Melisandre herself. She is the woman Stannis loves now, not his wife (whom he never even liked) nor his daughter he doesn't particularly care for. The end of the rope there isn't Shireen (it would be cruel and all, but it won't be Stannis' ultimate sacrifice) it is Melisandre herself.

Melisandre herself does not see it that Stannis loves her-she has her uses,but does not love her and she's pretty emotionally intelligent. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

39 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Are you saying Davos is co-dependent?

Meh, based on 5 minutes of googling symptoms of co-dependant, I'd probably say yes.  I think Davos could only leave Stannis, if Stannis had intentionally done harm to Davos's family. 

[The Fattest Leech]

These are the only two Not a Blog comments I could find:

mjy6478

Jun. 10th, 2015 04:35 am (UTC)

Game of Thrones (I'm sorry)

Hi George, before I get to my question let me just say that I am a big fan of both the books and the show. I have no problems with changes in the show, for I view the show and the books as the accounts of two different historians trying to relay the same history. Historians always contradicted and disagreed with each other, and it is our job to discern what really happened. Anyways, on to my question. There is a raging debate online about the Shireen burning. The show runners have stated that you told them that Shireen would burn in the books. However, there is a disagreement about whether Stannis himself will give the order to burn Shireen or consent in anyway to its occurrence. I just want to know if Stannis is himself responsible in anyway for Shireen's death in the books. If you do not wish to disclose this, I will understand. Thanks!

Link | Frozen | Thread

grrm

Jun. 10th, 2015 05:08 am (UTC)

Re: Game of Thrones (I'm sorry)

If I start to comment on what might or might not happen in scenes that I have not written yet, I will be "spoiling" my own books.

I have no further comment at this time.

 

[and then this one]

 

Sinjun Balabanoff

Jun. 8th, 2015 09:32 am (UTC)

Can we get any clarification on "When George told us about this?" in the Benioff & Weiss interview after Episode 9?

I figured Shireen would meet that sad fate eventually, but Stannis ordering it seems entirely out of character in the books. Not expecting a reply, but I had to ask. Huge fan of your work through the years, and I've kind of always been rooting for Stannis to pull through - tonight's episode was very depressing.

Link | Frozen | Thread

Andy MacDonald

Jun. 8th, 2015 08:12 pm (UTC)

How does this have anything to do with Deborah Harkness?

Link | Frozen | Parent | Thread

grrm

Jun. 8th, 2015 09:18 pm (UTC)

What Mr. MacDonald said.

Please stay on topic.

[Clegane'sPup]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, based on 5 minutes of googling symptoms of co-dependant, I'd probably say yes.  I think Davos could only leave Stannis, if Stannis had intentionally done harm to Davos's family. 

I was being snarky. My comedy failed.

 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

These are the only two Not a Blog comments I could find:

mjy6478

Jun. 10th, 2015 04:35 am (UTC)

Game of Thrones (I'm sorry)

Hi George, before I get to my question let me just say that I am a big fan of both the books and the show. I have no problems with changes in the show, for I view the show and the books as the accounts of two different historians trying to relay the same history. Historians always contradicted and disagreed with each other, and it is our job to discern what really happened. Anyways, on to my question. There is a raging debate online about the Shireen burning. The show runners have stated that you told them that Shireen would burn in the books. However, there is a disagreement about whether Stannis himself will give the order to burn Shireen or consent in anyway to its occurrence. I just want to know if Stannis is himself responsible in anyway for Shireen's death in the books. If you do not wish to disclose this, I will understand. Thanks!

Link | Frozen | Thread

grrm

Jun. 10th, 2015 05:08 am (UTC)

Re: Game of Thrones (I'm sorry)

If I start to comment on what might or might not happen in scenes that I have not written yet, I will be "spoiling" my own books.

I have no further comment at this time.

 

[and then this one]

 

Sinjun Balabanoff

Jun. 8th, 2015 09:32 am (UTC)

Can we get any clarification on "When George told us about this?" in the Benioff & Weiss interview after Episode 9?

I figured Shireen would meet that sad fate eventually, but Stannis ordering it seems entirely out of character in the books. Not expecting a reply, but I had to ask. Huge fan of your work through the years, and I've kind of always been rooting for Stannis to pull through - tonight's episode was very depressing.

Link | Frozen | Thread

Andy MacDonald

Jun. 8th, 2015 08:12 pm (UTC)

How does this have anything to do with Deborah Harkness?

Link | Frozen | Parent | Thread

grrm

Jun. 8th, 2015 09:18 pm (UTC)

What Mr. MacDonald said.

Please stay on topic.

The first one is the one I seem to recall. I don't keep track on all George comments I've read ;-).

It is an implicit confirmation that the death of Shireen is a scene he has yet to write.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I was being snarky. My comedy failed.

 

Oh no I got that from the emoji -but the question of if Davos being co-dependent still worth a serious answer. Which I see as a probably. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

21 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He is still a bastard and a usurper. that is all that matters 

On May 17, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Stannis stands to punish Joffery as well his siblings; Tommen and Mycerla for the crime of being the spawn of Cersi and Jaimie. If it was just Joffery and he only planned to punish the boy for unknowingly "stealing Stannis's throne, sure it's by no means fair, but justice in westeroes isn't usually so; but he stands to condemn Joffery, Mycerla and Tommen for who their parents are as well.

21 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Again, not a court of law reviewed by legal scholars 

No, a court is not necessary for most trials in the feudal system of the seven kingdoms. A lord or King can condemn any of his subjects as guilty for a crime with no more evidence than his intuition or proclaim the accused completely innocent even if the evidence against him is a apparent. 

But, in most cases an actual crime is put forth. 

Stannis seems to simply want to take Varys' head on the mere basis of having an off feeling about the man; not for any specific crime. 

The only crime you point to where he could reasonably condemn Varys for is one Stannis to which Stannis himself has committed. 

If Stannis did this condemned  Varys to death on this basis well simply put he would simply be a hypocrite.

21 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

ng a story with your own sense of morality. The morality of Stannis is literally spelled out. That is what is important here 

On May 17, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We're given firsthand looks on what is dealing out justice to peasants who steal; and it looks much harsher than the punishment Stannis inflicted on Davos; it would basicly be like a judge sentencing a man some hours of community service or a month in jail for murder.

Stannis was really merciful to Davos quite frankly. 

Overly so probably than the majority of Westerosi lords who'd pay the smuggler for his food but offer no more after they are no longer in need of him. 

I'm not actually trying to chastise Stannis here; I just see his action showing him to be more merciful.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Stannis stands to punish Joffery as well his siblings; Tommen and Mycerla for the crime of being the spawn of Cersi and Jaimie. If it was just Joffery and he only planned to punish the boy for unknowingly "stealing Stannis's throne, sure it's by no means fair, but justice in westeroes isn't usually so; but he stands to condemn Joffery, Mycerla and Tommen for who their parents are as well.

No, a court is not necessary for most trials in the feudal system of the seven kingdoms. A lord or King can condemn any of his subjects as guilty for a crime with no more evidence than his intuition or proclaim the accused completely innocent even if the evidence against him is a apparent. 

But, in most cases an actual crime is put forth. 

Stannis seems to simply want to take Varys' head on the mere basis of having an off feeling about the man; not for any specific crime. 

The only crime you point to where he could reasonably condemn Varys for is one Stannis to which Stannis himself has committed. 

If Stannis did this condemned  Varys to death on this basis well simply put he would simply be a hypocrite.

We're given firsthand looks on what is dealing out justice to peasants who steal; and it looks much harsher than the punishment Stannis inflicted on Davos; it would basicly be like a judge sentencing a man some hours of community service or a month in jail for murder.

Stannis was really merciful to Davos quite frankly. 

Overly so probably than the majority of Westerosi lords who'd pay the smuggler for his food but offer no more after they are no longer in need of him. 

I'm not actually trying to chastise Stannis here; I just see his action showing him to be more merciful.

 

Either way, Stannis will not put his daughter and heir to Mel's sacrificial flames 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Either way, Stannis will not put his daughter and heir to Mel's sacrificial flames 

I do not claim he will-I'm simply pointing out it is a possibility. If the situation becomes grim enough,and Melisandre makes a case Shireen's sacrifice would save the entire war-effort Stannis may do this; we are after all talking after all the survival of the human race.

Or perhaps even in the face of Armageddon he'll opt the course that would put humanity at risk(immensely selfish-if so Show Stannis would be far more selfless than his book counterpart) Or a more immediate call for action call to burning Shireen will be prompted and Melisandre would do so with out waiting for his possible consent. Kinda like how Davos freed up Edric Storm. Stannis was too weak to do something, and thus it was up to his servant to make the hard choice for him. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 18, 2018 at 8:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is actually the reason why I think Stannis' last sacrifice - the one Melisandre is never going to see coming - will be Melisandre herself. She is the woman Stannis loves now, not his wife (whom he never even liked) nor his daughter he doesn't particularly care for. The end of the rope there isn't Shireen (it would be cruel and all, but it won't be Stannis' ultimate sacrifice) it is Melisandre herself.

But Melisandre does not believe Stannis loves her, and Stannis has been given the impression that a person's blood is what determines the impact of the sacrifice; Kings' blood being the most effective way to get Rh'lor's power. Would her blood even be seen as being acceptable by Rh'lor? Hell add on to that she's a priestess of Rh'lor. Wouldn't it be likely Stannis thinking burning cause the red God to be angry.

I do believe, the actual worth of the human sacrifice is how valuable it is the person making it more so than what blood of the sacrifice; I mean the salt wives of Euron were concubines, whores, unlikely people of proper blood yet still generated an effect because they mattered to him. 

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I do not claim he will-I'm simply pointing out it is a possibility. If the situation becomes grim enough,and Melisandre makes a case Shireen's sacrifice would save the entire war-effort Stannis may do this; we are after all talking after all the survival of the human race.

Or perhaps even in the face of Armageddon he'll opt the course that would put humanity at risk(immensely selfish-if so Show Stannis would be far more selfless than his book counterpart) Or a more immediate call for action call to burning Shireen will be prompted and Melisandre would do so with out waiting for his possible consent. Kinda like how Davos freed up Edric Storm. Stannis was too weak to do something, and thus it was up to his servant to make the hard choice for him. 

In order for Stannis to give consent for Shireen to be burned, Stannis must be present, unless people are communicating by ravenmail.

As it stands Stannis is at a crofters village. Stannis told Massey should he die Massey is to see to it Stannis' daughter is to sit the throne.

Either Stannis returns to the Wall or Mel, Selyse and Shireen leave CB to seek out Stannis.

As of the end of DwD the only implied threat against Shireen has been made by a wildling/free folk.

Are you suggesting that Stannis is successful in the cleaning of WF? That Stannis returns to the Wall. That in the face of the Other and their minions onslaught that Mel convinces Stannis to burn his one and only heir?

Mel's box of potions and powders is running low. Stannis never really bought what Mel was selling. Now that Stannis has been distanced from Mel and her potions & powders Stannis seems to be Stannis.

Why did martin in DwD tell his readers about Mel's stash if not to expose her as a fake & fraud:

"Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them."

Shireen may die in WoW or DoS but I dunna see Stannis doing or being part of the deed.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 19, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

returns to the Wall or Mel, Selyse and Shireen leave CB to seek out Stannis.

 

Well that or they communicate using Ravens at winterfel. 

On May 19, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

nnis to give consent for Shireen to be burned, Stannis must be present, unless people are communicating by ravenmail.

 

Yes. He could travel back to see what exactly is the situation at the wall to see if it is that serious or deliver the verdict through Raven; or he could have ordered Shireen and Selyse to be brought to winterfell to which they'd be much safer.

On May 19, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

DwD the only implied threat against Shireen has been made by a wildling/free folk.

 

The threat of being sacrificed been seen shown since ASOS to really on anyone with reports of kings blood to which are under Stannis's grasp.

On May 19, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Mel's box of potions and powders is running low. Stannis never really bought what Mel was selling. Now that Stannis has been distanced from Mel and her potions & powders Stannis seems to be Stannis.

 

What are you talking about? He's basically shown throughout the series that yes, he does see Rh'lor's power to be a real thing, hench his using of him in his declaration of war, hench his human sacrifices(continuing during the siege of winterfel) to the god hench him seriously considering giving up his own nephew to the god. Stannis believes it. There's no doubt about that. 

On May 19, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Why did martin in DwD tell his readers about Mel's stash if not to expose her as a fake & fraud:

 

He also showed her not to be some evil witch whose doing all the harm she's doing for some diabolical purpose ; she very much believes in her mission and would not be advocating the sacrifices she has been if she genuinely didn't think it would provoke a response from Rh'lor. 

Whether or not she isn't completely genuine in her methods, Stannis believes she is the real deal. 

On May 19, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Stannis told Massey should he die Massey is to

And that request is impossible. Shireen is dead if Stannis dies. If anyone could get this through to him, to see his folly, anyone not afraid to give him a hard truth, it is either going to be Davos or Melisandre. humanity is at stack. Could Stannis be so selfish and unreasonable to never waver regardless of the circumstance and allow humanity to die regardles of whose laying out the reilty to him? I don't think so. .

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 5/19/2018 at 1:36 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I do not claim he will-I'm simply pointing out it is a possibility. If the situation becomes grim enough,and Melisandre makes a case Shireen's sacrifice would save the entire war-effort Stannis may do this; we are after all talking after all the survival of the human race.

No chance. if stannis is alive by the time the others breach the wall and head south he will still be concerned with the life of his daughter and only heir.  Besides, there is other kings blood in the north. 

On 5/19/2018 at 1:36 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or perhaps even in the face of Armageddon he'll opt the course that would put humanity at risk(immensely selfish-if so Show Stannis would be far more selfless than his book counterpart) Or a more immediate call for action call to burning Shireen will be prompted and Melisandre would do so with out waiting for his possible consent. Kinda like how Davos freed up Edric Storm. Stannis was too weak to do something, and thus it was up to his servant to make the hard choice for him. 

and to drive the point home, stannis would never agree to burn his daughter as a sacrifice 

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

On May 19, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

No chance. if stannis is alive by the time the others breach the wall and head south he will still be concerned with the life of his daughter and only heir.  Besides, there is other kings blood in the north. 

It doesn't have to be just when the ofher's breach; it could be when they're trying to as well. In either case, however if Melisandre truly sees no other way to adequately stop the menace, or delay them enough, Stannis may very well concede if a good case to him; he's proven quite malleable in the series so far if needed. 

Tthe greyjoys haven't been kings for centuries. And Stannis will not accept Greyjoy is a king. Mance simply isn't a king and for all Stannis knows is dead; or Stannis and thus is showing again a willingness to compromise, this time with allowing a mass murderer escape justice and condemn a man he legally pardoned. 

Mance's son is safe with Sam and Gilly. 

Selyse's little pet wildling who had an ancestor who had an ancestor who was a king beyond the wall, should be of far less worth then Shireen.

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

the point home, stannis would never agree to burn his daughter as a sacrifice 

Give the man some credit-he might not be this selfish and pigheaded, to where when actually confronted with the reilty of a situation. 

If he dies Shireen is dead. 

If the other's win, Shireen is dead as well-the only difference probably is that she'll be turned into a living abomination; in which case I think Stannis would see Shireen burned then turned into a walker.