is the WoT series worth reading

[Ran]

Folks, given that this thread was started by someone who explicitly has not read the novels, throwing in a bunch of spoilers seems a bit rude.

Start a fresh WoT spoiler thread if you guys want to discuss them.

[Astromech]

49 minutes ago, Ran said:

*tugs braid* Folks, given that this thread was started by someone who explicitly has not read the novels, throwing in a bunch of spoilers seems a bit rude.

Start a fresh WoT spoiler thread if you guys want to discuss them.

FTFY

[Rhom]

Hey!  That’s the first time I’ve used the new react button.

Not only did you bring back my dearly missed Like button, it had received an upgrade!  

@Ran you’re the best!

[fionwe1987]

On 5/14/2018 at 2:31 PM, Rhom said:

Perhaps @fionwe1987 can clue us in.  I noticed the comments in the thread.

I was summoned... 

Yeah this is all legit. Terez is one of the foremost WoT experts I know. And she actually dug into a lot of RJ's files. Someday, I'd love to see a "History of Middle Earth" type thing done for WoT. The nuggets that have been revealed have always been interesting. Taimandred being real was interesting to me, but not shocking. It had always  seemed possible RJ simply changed his mind due to fan reaction.

But given how masterfully he handled Verin, I really do wish he had figured out a way to keep Taimdred canon while throwing the readers off.

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I was summoned... 

Yeah this is all legit. Terez is one of the foremost WoT experts I know. And she actually dug into a lot of RJ's files. Someday, I'd love to see a "History of Middle Earth" type thing done for WoT. The nuggets that have been revealed have always been interesting. Taimandred being real was interesting to me, but not shocking. It had always  seemed possible RJ simply changed his mind due to fan reaction.

But given how masterfully he handled Verin, I really do wish he had figured out a way to keep Taimdred canon while throwing the readers off.

Which is why I was so disappointed by that "companion" book, which is just an extensive glossary.

[fionwe1987]

On 5/15/2018 at 4:50 AM, TheRevanchist said:

I don't remember this happening. She kept the rulers of some other (and much smaller) country as pets, not Shara IIRC.

Isn't Demandred the only Forsaken who is on Shara, and he actually did a revolution there?!

Graendal captures them, purely for her collection, and that sets off the revolution, since they die before the appointed 7 years, when the true rulers, the Aes Sedai, usually killed one and made the surviving spouse the ruler. The sudden disappearance broke the old order, and Demandred capitalized on the chaos.

Frankly, it was a bit hard to believe that Graendal would leave such fertile ground after putting so much effort into capturing the rulers. Worse, that she would leave behind no spies in a country which she infiltrated first was weird (though this may be a Sanderson-ism, since RJ may just have had her reveal she knew exactly what Demandred was up to all along). Graendal was the best of the Foresaken, and this definitely weakens the narrative of her being the master manipulator and information gatherer.

 

[fionwe1987]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Which is why I was so disappointed by that "companion" book, which is just an extensive glossary.

No arguing that. But I think it serves a purpose, I just wish they'd made the ebook indexed so you could find what you wanted quickly. 

[fionwe1987]

Is WoT worth reading? Hmmm. I'd say my answer isn't as firm a yes now as it once would have been. Partly, I think I've been more successful at teasing apart why I loved (and still like) the books so much vs. whether they will be liked by everyone.

Put simply, WoT has a lot of good aspects. And also a lot of shitty aspects. Where the balance between them falls for you is up to you to decide.

For myself, what captivated me about WoT (which I started a year after finishing LoTR), was not the story so much (though the Prologue is an excellent hook, way better than most first chapters in fantasy novels), but the sheer variety and number of women in the books.

Ignore the people who say all the women are the same. They've usually not read most of the books with any attention to detail, and are parroting an easy line they probably heard someone make.

Nor am I saying these women are particuarly deeply written. Jordan doesn't do too many deep characters, male *or* female. But there are certainly main characters (of both genders) who are given strong, and logical, arcs which you mostly get to see done right.

No, what I'm saying is that the sheer number and variety of roles women are given in WoT... it really ends up making the case for gender equality very strongly. More so, in my opinion, than the very real gender issues in the magic system, the way some characters are written, the endings for the female villains, etc. can take away from it. 

This is still revolutionary, I feel. There's no way to tell, in WoT, whether the random merchant, , spy, villain, philosopher or scientist is going to be male or female. Some professions do see a gender imbalance, but as many such as there are favoring men, there are those favoring women, and it rarely falls into traditional masculine/feminine stereotypes. Even when it does, counterexamples abound, so at the end, it becomes really easy to feel that this is world where women and men have equality.

Of course, that equality is of a "separate but equal" variety, which is quite quite regressive, but I'm really hard pressed to name another fantasy series where as many women play as much of a role, whether of the "Save the world" type or "provide some short term excitement" type.

Its always like this with WoT. There's all this progressive stuff, some still unmatched by a lot of modern works, but blended in is regressive stuff that makes you want to pull your hair out.

You will find a pansexual, mass rapist female villain who is a master political manipulator (who fits no known stereotype I know of, but borrows from quite a few), and her pan-sexuality is obvious but never mentioned as such or judged in any way at all. You will also absolutely no male character who is queer, at all.

You will find a female lead who is allowed to be ambitious and thirsty for knowledge who is not judged by any of her fellow characters (though the fandom, sadly, is a whole other case). And then you'll find major female characters who are old and experienced but somehow turn into complete idiots when it comes to romance. 

Like I said, the books are a mixed bag, and not just about how gender relations are portrayed. 

Frankly, I'd take no one's word for it. Read it and see if it works for you. 

But I'll say this... if WoT becomes a TV show, and if  the showrunners have the sense to leave behind the troubling aspects of the books, the core story is excellent and can make for a lot of fun TV. Heck, if someone wrote an abridged version of the books which revisited some of the issues in the series, that'd work really well too.

[Darth Richard II]

6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Which is why I was so disappointed by that "companion" book, which is just an extensive glossary.

That book is just bullshit. I type out a longer post but I think that encapsulates well. Bullshit.

[TheRevanchist]

On 5/18/2018 at 4:10 PM, fionwe1987 said:

Graendal captures them, purely for her collection, and that sets off the revolution, since they die before the appointed 7 years, when the true rulers, the Aes Sedai, usually killed one and made the surviving spouse the ruler. The sudden disappearance broke the old order, and Demandred capitalized on the chaos.

Frankly, it was a bit hard to believe that Graendal would leave such fertile ground after putting so much effort into capturing the rulers. Worse, that she would leave behind no spies in a country which she infiltrated first was weird (though this may be a Sanderson-ism, since RJ may just have had her reveal she knew exactly what Demandred was up to all along). Graendal was the best of the Foresaken, and this definitely weakens the narrative of her being the master manipulator and information gatherer.

 

Ah, I have totally forgot about this part.

Graendal was awesome, but my favorite Forsaken was easily Ishamael. He was awesome and he deserved much more than the ending Sanderson gave to him.

 

[TheRevanchist]

Anyway, a few years back when I read the books, I made a theory about Demandred and posted it in some other forum. Here it is:

 

Also, some interesting speculation. We have always been told that even when the Dragon goes over to the Shadow - it results in a draw. Which has always seemed strange. Perhaps Demandred was actually a pawn of the Pattern - a grand weaving of 3000+ years. If Rand had not had his VoG moment, he would most likely have ended up serving the Shadow. In this case, he would probably have had the Chodean Kal, Callandor, experience, and the Forsaken on his side. 

Demandred with his Ayyad, Sarkarnen and his own knowledge, quite possibly could have been set in place to kill Rand, and save the Pattern from total destruction. Obviously, it wouldn't be his intention to do so, and he would likely also die in the process - the Pattern wouldn't want him beyond that. However, he would have been the only one - some would say bold, others crazy - enough to defy the Shadow and attack Rand (who would probably be Nae'Blis). His hatred of Rand defined him - it lead to his downfall. But in the world of If, could it not also have been the Pattern's tool? It seems much like a back-up plan, like Fain was in case Rand actually did decide to kill the DO. 

This way you could take the prophecy of "he who is owned by the land" in two ways. 

One would be the reference to his hatred of Rand - who is one with the land. His hatred owned Demandred, so in a way, Rand owned him, he was so obsessed. 

Also, you could take it to mean he was a tool of the Pattern. If Rand turns - Demandred kills him. If not, then the Pattern discards him. 

In a way, it also makes sense in terms of Demandred's actions in aMoL. The Pattern could have woven him to be the commander over the Shadow precisely because of his hatred of Lews Therin. Demandred didn't kill everyone all at once, nor did he care about actually winning the Last Battle. All he did was to lure out Rand and face him. 

If say - Graendal or Moghedien were in Demandred's position, and had his skill with battle, they would have totally destroyed the armies of the Light and fought to kill - not to goad Rand. 

So, the Pattern sets up Demandred - the Last Battle hinges on him basically. (Even had Rand won, most of the people would be dead and the bulk of the remaining forces loyal to the Shadow) With Rand post - VoG, Demandred was no longer needed to kill Rand - however, still served the Pattern by being the cause of the Shadow's loss. When he died, everything fell to pieces. You could argue that the Shadow still could have won the battle - which indeed they could have - but if Demandred remained alive - there was NO chance of winning. 

It makes more sense this way - even though most of it is speculation. I prefer to fill in the gaps with Patterns, makes it much more vivid.

Unfortunately, there are some terms that I wrote there (like VoG, Ayyad and Sarkarnen which I have no idea what they are.

[TheRevanchist]

On 5/18/2018 at 10:28 PM, Darth Richard II said:

That book is just bullshit. I type out a longer post but I think that encapsulates well. Bullshit.

And also inconsistent with Jordan's writing. Apparently Rahvin is as powerful as Rand (the books clearly tell that only Ishamael is near the power of Rand, almost equal, with Lanfear being the second most powerful one). Or that Cadsuane is more powerful than the supergirls (bar Nynaeve), despite that it has been mentioned that Elayne and Egwene are the most powerful Aes Sedai in the last thousand years (with Nyn even stronger).

I read just some part of it, but yeah, it is total bullshit that should be dismissed.

[Errant Bard]

Hah, power levels, how fun. I would like to read those authors take on sport stars: "But Ronaldo is clearly more powerful than Froome and Federer"