Did Edmure save Robb's Life?

[Bernie Mac]

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

I was referring to the original plan to head west and attack Stafford .

and to link up with the ironborn, that was the original plan. 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Even if Robb does not find the secret passage he still would have went west ,

sure, but he would either suffered significant casualties in getting past the Golden Tooth, which in turn alerts Stafford to his presence in the West or he is kept out. 

his magical direwolf finding a secret path into the West was extremely fortunate, as was Stafford not posting any sentries. these are not factors that generals plan for, this is luck. 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

there was really no need to try and take the Golden Tooth he could simply bypass the castle ,

and the only way to do that is fight the men stationed at the castle. in case some readers are unfamiliar with what the actual purpose of castles were in medieval times GRRM tells the reader through exposition

"How did the king ever take the Tooth?" Ser Perwyn Frey asked his bastard brother. "That's a hard strong keep, and it commands the hill road."

"He never took it. He slipped around it in the night. It's said the direwolf showed him the way, that Grey Wind of his. The beast sniffed out a goat track that wound down a defile and up along beneath a ridge, a crooked and stony way, yet wide enough for men riding single file. 

 

there was no bypassing the Tooth without a fight.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

his main goal was Stafford and his army . Not finding the path around Golden Tooth would have made surprising Stafford impossible but he would have still had faith that his experienced soldiers  would defeat Stafford

sure, but after the fight against Prester at the Golden Tooth and the now alert  Stafford at the Oxcross Robb will have taken significantly more casualties than he did, that is even if he was successful, which is no sure thing.

 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

and his inexperienced soldiers and then he could plunder the west and at the very least cut off Tywin from his reinforcements and resources . His goal was to destroy the Lannisters and cutting off Tywin from the west and plundering his resources while Tywin fights Renly and/or Stannis was the best path to that goal and the added goal of setting himself up to dealing with either Stannis or Renly if they come out on top . 

no, his best option was to join up with one of the other factions if he wanted to destroy the Lannisters. His second best option would be to have his forces combined and prevent Tywin, either wholly or partially, from helping Kings Landing when it was attacked. Another option would be to remain in the Riverlands and attack Tywin in the rear when he was going to defend the capital.

Him spending months in the West after Stafford was beaten was not the best option to end the Lannisters, he was hoping that Tywin would come West at the exact same time the capital was attacked. This is a long shot, it takes everything out of Robb's own hands and relies on luck not military strategy. 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

expect for the fact that sieges are unpredictable ,that siege could have lasted a year or just one day

I'm sorry, but they are not that unpredictable. Do you think the medieval era would have saw so many castles built and maintained if sieges were unpredictable? 

Storm's End is one of the two strongest castles in the continent of Westeros, it is a castle that have been around for thousands of years. It has a proven record, when characters in the series say it should have for at least 6 months they know what they are talking about. 

The very fact that Stannis had to resort to using magic to take the castle should highlight just how strong the castle is. 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

but Edmure lacked the foresight to see that Tywin in the Westerlands was the best plan and that's OK , everybody makes mistakes , Robb made mistakes some really big ones and so did Edmure so I'm not sure why it's so hard to admit that . 

Where have I claimed that Edmure made no mistakes? Please quote exactly where you think that I have claimed that Edmure has never made a mistake? You can't just make up arguments that no one has made. 

Whether Edmure attacking Tywin was good or bad for the fate of Kings Landing is something that will be continued to be debated but what we do know is it likely saved the injured Robb's life, who made a colossal error in judgement attacking the Crag and becoming bedridden in the process. 

We also know that had Tywin gone West the odds were heavily in his favor given the numbers and the territory. Perhaps Robb was happy with sacraficing himself if it meant Joffrey was killed. 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Look at it this way . there is 100% chance that Edmure stopping Tywin leading to Robb's death , that's just a book fact . 

it is not actually a fact. Edmure did not force Robb to betray the Freys, Edmure did not tell Robb to execute Karstark and in turn give Roose more allies, in fact he advised against it, and Edmure did not make Robb go home via the Twins when the Kings road was an option. 

In fact Robb could still have saved his life by swallowing his pride and suing for peace after the Blackwater. He choose not to. Blaming Edmure for Robb's death is actually ignoring the variables and the odds of the situation. And at worst Edmure extended Robb's life. 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:14 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

except it allows Stafford the chance to raise and train his army and link up with the 4K at the Golden Tooth 

as I said in my original post, Robb going West was good it was him sticking around after he defeated Stafford at the battle of Oxcross which was a waste of his time. 

He would have been better of returning to Riverrun and being able to properly coordinate his forces. 

 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

one of the main advantages for Robb is that he does not need a victory all he has to do is not be destroyed by Tywin

except that is not the case as we see the Tyrells were in a position that Tywin was not really needed. 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

. Beating Tywin in the Westerlands would be a huge task maybe impossible but just keeping Tywin engaged and not being destroyed by him is not nearly as difficult .

but the odds were heavily against him doing so, even before he was injured at the Crag. Once bedridden his fate seemed more certain, he was doomed. 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Tywin has to be careful of falling into the very type of trap that Blackfish

and Robb and his army don't?

They are in the Westerlands, with the castles, garrisons, ravens, food supplies all at Tywin's disposal. Robb has to be far more careful in enemy territory than Tywin does in his own homeland. 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

is trying to spring so he can't just chase after Robb without any regard for his own safety so that would enable Robb to possibly stay away from any type of full scale battle .

except Robb's secret plan was to give battle. Was he talking shit? 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Tywin is the one who is on a time crunch so Robb does not have to defeat Tywin just keep him  in the West for as long as possible .

No, Robb is also on time crunch. Or do you not think he or his army have to eat or sleep? 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Just Tywin getting from Harrenhall to the Crag would take at least a couple of weeks and then the trip back potentially fighting through the Riverlands would take a couple of more weeks maybe longer so every day that Tywin is engaged in the West is one more day that Stannis can take Kings Landing . 

Those are possibilities, but not expected as Stannis, Tyrion and the author himself all point out how long Storm's End was expected to last. The author is more than clear on the subject, the fact that it took magic to resolve the situation so quickly proves this to be the case. 

Now maybe because Robb's magical direwolf found a hidden pathway into the West he was banking on another feat of magic to give him another advantage, but this is still hoping for a longshot. 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

I just find it hard to believe that Blackfish would lie or exaggerate when it come to matters of warfare , maybe that makes me naive but that's just what i believe . 

Why? He is not a saint, his nickname is the 'blackfish', that does not suggest he is someone who is above lying or exaggerating when the stakes are this high. Even Ned lied when he needed to. 

Given the severity of the situation, the belief from Robb that without the Freys there was no hope do you really not think he would lie if he felt it was for the greater good? 

 

On 5/23/2018 at 12:20 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

Assuming that Tywin's goes west and Edmure don't stop him. Then Edmure can deny Tywin passage east. This means Tywin could be contained in the West.

Not really, otherwise Edmure would have been able to contain him in the opening battles of the war. Edmure successfully stopped Tywin from going crossing the Red Fork, but unlike the North there are multiple entrances into the West. 

 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb went to the Westerlands and by passed the Golden Tooth without problem,

yup, thanks to his magical direwolf. a longshot paid off.

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

there he ambushed Stafford also without problem,

yep, his magical direwolf got him into the west undetected while an incompetent commander refused to use sentries. Once again, unbelievably lucky.  

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

he split his forces, he then raided and looted the place,  captures several castles

two castles. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

and drove thousands of livestocks from the west to the riverlands, without oposition,

of course. they were not really in a position to deal with 6k cavalry. it would have been idiotic for the remaining westerland forces to try and meet up and attack as they would be exposed

the intelligent play was to remain in their castles were Robb could not strike. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

all of this show us that he knew the place well enough.

it shows he can read a map, but the fact that he was unchallenged means there was little actual pressure on him. 

obviously, and I can't believe some of you are still arguing this point 6 pages later, the Westerland forces are going to have the superior knowledge of their own homeland. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Even when the freys clashed with Robb and went home alone they still made it without problem.

they didn't clash, there was no fighting, they peacefully left. Now the Greatjon wanted to attack the people who were his allies only the day before, but there was no clash

this is the frustrating part, having to argue with people who have not even read the books properly. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

it's pretty clear that Robb could have went in and out of the Westerlands without problem.

except he was injured in the West. Is that not a problem? 

When Tywin was heading West Robb was getting himself injured and taking himself out of action, leaving him exposed. He fucked up and Edmure likely saved his ass. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

His plan was to lure Tywin west and them put him in a merry chase  at the coast them outmanuver him and keep running until they reach a fortified position that he found earlier.

Yup, and it is a poor plan, if it was ever actually a real plan. 

Though given he was injured and bedridden at the Crag it is hard to see how he could have given Tywin a merry chase. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He is not risking a ambush on Tywin, he does not want to give Tywin a battle, his plan is sound.

It really is not. It is a vague plan and just because some fans are under the impression that not only is the Blackfish capable of lying when so much is at stake but he is also incapable of being wrong. 

We know the situation well, we have the facts. The odds were not in Robb's favor. That does not mean his plan could not have worked, but that it was not likely to given where he was and how outnumbered he was. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Use his smaller and more mobile force to drive Tywin where he wants,

Well no, he can't. There are Westerland castles scattered everywhere, he can not risk himself being trapped between a fortification and an army, he can afford to rest to near a settlement. He can't go 'anywhere he wants'. He is limited like all invading armies against much larger armies in foreign lands are. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

he knows he can't run forever so he set up a strong defensive position that would be foolish to atack them gaining enough time so that Stannis takes KL.

When exactly did he do this? His original plan was to meet up with the Ironborn, when did he figure that was no longer an option?  When did he find out that Stannis was in charge?

How much time were his scouts given to find this magical gamechanging piece of land?

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

We don't know what this position that he prepared is, could be a narrow place where numbers would be useless, could be a higher ground, could be a fort or a rivercross we don't have a POV there to describe it for us.

Exactly, so based on what we do know the odds were against him.

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

The only question is that if you belive or not in Blackfish.

No, the only question is looking at the facts of the situation what is the likely scenario and the likely scenario is that the larger force, in their own homeland, with more horse, the option of staying and feeding at castles, being able to send word to the other garrisons is going to be the more likely to win. The Blackfish's faith does not trump facts. 

Do you think the Blackfish thought Robb would be injured in the taking of the Crag? I hope not, but that is what happened. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

From what he know of him he never made a military blunder.

The Crag was a military blunder given Robb would have been bedridden with Tywin back home. Edmure saved them from being hurt by this blunder. 

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He ambushed Jaime without problem,

Well yeah, but that has more to do with luck. What kind of idiot rides off to deal with bandits after all his scouts go missing. 

Tywin, as quoted in an earlier post. was not about to make the same mistake. In fact here is that post I made in reply to you, you didnt reply back to it. 

 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

and to link up with the ironborn, that was the original plan. 

sure, but he would either suffered significant casualties in getting past the Golden Tooth, which in turn alerts Stafford to his presence in the West or he is kept out. 

his magical direwolf finding a secret path into the West was extremely fortunate, as was Stafford not posting any sentries. these are not factors that generals plan for, this is luck. 

and the only way to do that is fight the men stationed at the castle. in case some readers are unfamiliar with what the actual purpose of castles were in medieval times GRRM tells the reader through exposition

"How did the king ever take the Tooth?" Ser Perwyn Frey asked his bastard brother. "That's a hard strong keep, and it commands the hill road."

"He never took it. He slipped around it in the night. It's said the direwolf showed him the way, that Grey Wind of his. The beast sniffed out a goat track that wound down a defile and up along beneath a ridge, a crooked and stony way, yet wide enough for men riding single file. 

 

there was no bypassing the Tooth without a fight.

 

 

that is just simply not true . If the men who were in the Golden Tooth were willing to come out and fight then Robb would have to fight them but those were the same men who were beaten at the Battle of the Camps so doubtful that they would have tried to stop Robb , they would have alerted Satafford however .  The castle guards the pass but it does not block the pass . 

see the wiki entry 

the Golden Tooth guards the one large pass through the mountains that allows direct travel between the westerlands and the riverlands to the east. It is generally held that in order to attack the westerlands from the east, one must take the Golden Tooth to have a secure passage.[4]

 

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Tywin, as quoted in an earlier post. was not about to make the same mistake. In fact here is that post I made in reply to you, you didnt reply back to it. 

 

I don't think that was a reply to me. 

 

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, the only question is looking at the facts of the situation what is the likely scenario and the likely scenario is that the larger force, in their own homeland, with more horse, the option of staying and feeding at castles, being able to send word to the other garrisons is going to be the more likely to win. The Blackfish's faith does not trump facts. 

 

 

this is the part you can't seem grasp . Robb does not have to win , all he has to do is avoid being destroyed . The odds of Robb defeating Tywin in his homeland with a smaller force is very  small but the odds of him managing to stay away from Tywin and managing to survive a few weeks is much higher . No where does Blackfish make any grand claims about them beating Tywin but he has a plan just to keep him engaged in the West , maybe i'm being naive but it seems pretty reasonable that they could at the least keep Tywin moving for a little while . 

"We were all horsed," Ser Brynden said. "The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours."

 

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

except he was injured in the West. Is that not a problem? 

When Tywin was heading West Robb was getting himself injured and taking himself out of action, leaving him exposed. He fucked up and Edmure likely saved his ass. 

 

 

Considering Robb died because of Edmure's action means that Edmure did not save anybody's ass . Even if Robb had been hurt before Tywin came West(which we don't really know the timeline) , he would have plenty of time to recover . It would have taken Tywin a couple of weeks to get to the Crag from the Golden Tooth so plenty of time for Robb to be able to ride . When he returned to Riverrun he was fully recovered so it could not have been that bad of a injury . 

 

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

I'm sorry, but they are not that unpredictable. Do you think the medieval era would have saw so many castles built and maintained if sieges were unpredictable? 

Storm's End is one of the two strongest castles in the continent of Westeros, it is a castle that have been around for thousands of years. It has a proven record, when characters in the series say it should have for at least 6 months they know what they are talking about. 

 

So you say that sieges are not unpredictable and the siege of Storms End should have lasted 6 months so tell me how long did the siege of Storms End last ?

oh that's right just a few days , isn't that kinda of unpredictable ? 

[Arthur Peres]

33 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

two castles. 

Maester Luwin sent Alebelly away and closed his door. “My lords,” he said gravely, “we have had a message from His Grace, with both good news and ill. He has won a great victory in the west, shattering a Lannister army at a place named Oxcross, and has taken several castles as well. He writes us from Ashemark, formerly the stronghold of House Marbrand.”

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

they didn't clash, there was no fighting, they peacefully left. Now the Greatjon wanted to attack the people who were his allies only the day before, but there was no clash

this is the frustrating part, having to argue with people who have not even read the books properly. 

I didn't mean that they fought each other but that the Freys left Robb's cause and went home alone. 

 

36 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well no, he can't. There are Westerland castles scattered everywhere, he can not risk himself being trapped between a fortification and an army, he can afford to rest to near a settlement. He can't go 'anywhere he wants'. He is limited like all invading armies against much larger armies in foreign lands are.

Robb captured several castles there, he cleary set up the terrain, I doubt very much that he would left hostile castles behind to cut him from the supplies or his way out. Remember they don't even know from where he came.

"this is the frustrating part, having to argue with people who have not even read the books properly. " 

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

except he was injured in the West. Is that not a problem? 

 When Tywin was heading West Robb was getting himself injured and taking himself out of action, leaving him exposed. He fucked up and Edmure likely saved his ass. 

No it's not, Robb was days ahead of Tywin he had the time to recover, also his injury was so bad that he was "jumping on Jeynes bed". When he tell us that he was wounded in battle he never treat this as a grievious wound, only Cat gets scared over it because she doesn't know the details.

Edmure fucked everything up by keeping Tywin on his lands, Edmure's plan was cleary a failure. He couldn't kill Tywin, he failled to cut him out from his retreat to Kings Landing and to trap him between 3 armies. He never reached any of his goals in the battle.

44 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well no, he can't. There are Westerland castles scattered everywhere, he can not risk himself being trapped between a fortification and an army, he can afford to rest to near a settlement. He can't go 'anywhere he wants'. He is limited like all invading armies against much larger armies in foreign lands are. 

You talk like the position Blackfish choose to take was a place surrounded by castles. It cleary isn't and even if it is Robb cleary took the hostile castles in the zone. He set up his the location is dumb to think he would choose a field where he would be in disavantage. Tywin is the one marching Robb can do the wait game or the run game. The iniciative in on Robb's side.

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Crag was a military blunder given Robb would have been bedridden with Tywin back home. Edmure saved them from being hurt by this blunder. 

Quote

No it wasn't. Robb took the castle without problem.

[Arthur Peres]

On 5/18/2018 at 2:48 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Well first of all military scouting does not work like that. the greatest military scout in the Balkans is not going to be on the same level if he is dropped in the middle of China or the Sudan. Being the best scout in one place does not automatically make the you the best everywhere on the planet, even in the modern age were you can bridge a lot of gaps with the internet that is simply not going to be the case, there are just far too many variables involved. Actually go to a marine websites and talk to actual Reconnaissance Battalion marines about this, they will give you a qualified answer on this, they will inform you that they use local guides, that they don't presume no matter how well trained they are that they will automatically be as good in other countries.  Now add in the medieval age factor and it is a hundred times as hard of being able to transfer the knowledge. e.g. if you stuck the Blackfish in Stannis' army in ADWD he is going to be taking direction from Benjicot Branch and the other northern scouts provided by the Glovers as they are going to be more knowledgeable than the Blackfish or Stannis' blackfish equivalent. 

Remember Westeros is a continent, full of realms that still has large gaps in their knowledge about each other, for example Dorne's closest neighbors are under the impression that their populace is around twice what it is, even Jon can't give an accurate estimate on how many men the Mountain Clans can raise. Expecting the Blackfish to be an expert on the terrain, populace and rivers, roads and pathways of the Westerlands is an impossible task. 

And still you are missing the biggest factor in this discussion, even if the Blackfish was the greatest expert on the lands of the Lannisters and their vassals, even if he knew more than all of them that still does not change the fact that without telepathy, without the ability to know exactly what blind spots the Westerlanders have on their own lands he is gambling that he knows more about a random piece of land than they do. This is the very definition of a long shot. 

Secondly, and this should be made very clear, where is it claimed he is the best. Don't get me wrong, he is incredibly competent, but nowhere is it claimed he is superior to all others.  In fact the Blackfish's superiority in his homeland the Riverlands (supported by the Freys, notably Martyn Rivers who takes over the Blackfish's command when he heads West) against the invading foreign Westerland army. This supports my argument. The home side is always going to have the advantage in knowledge on its own region. 

First as you say Blackfish is very competent. Second he is in the position, and he cleary scouted the place to select it to do the job, third the one person finding secret passages is Robb.

Taking a strong defensive position do not require to be Alexander the Great, every decent general can see when a place suits him. Edmure did it when he choose to stop Tywin and he cleary isn't the biggest military mind in the war.

Blackfish may not know everything about the Westerlands, but he is there now and he studied the position to do one think, and he is cleary risking his life on this matter, the last time he did it Robb end up with a great victory that pretty much gave him the control to the flow of the war until Edmure made a mess of everything up.

I take Blackfish words for it when he says it. He was there, he knew his strenght and Tywins strenght and he was still confident in holding position. You're are criticizing the position without even having a POV in the Westerlands, I'm just taking the word of one of the best generals in the series for it.

[Chancho]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

there was no bypassing the Tooth without a fight.

sure, but after the fight against Prester at the Golden Tooth and the now alert  Stafford at the Oxcross Robb will have taken significantly more casualties than he did, that is even if he was successful, which is no sure thing.

Taking more casualties is a under statement, 2000 crossbowmen behind walls taking shots with reckless abandon agaisnt a army on horses only, crossing the only road who could be easily blocked using barricades and such to stop enemy movement for a while (a big while), while they can pick shots to ifinite and horses bodies pile up... They even might have heavy weapons, to throw rocks and other usefull castle defenses in hand... Robb with no siege weapons agaisnt a 4000 plus garrison with thousands of distance weapons.

By there is a GUY in this thread that says they can just pass by... Because The West army is terrified of killing northmens, he even suggest that the Golden tooth only defend one side of the road, like is moat cailin!

[Chancho]

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

No it wasn't. Robb took the castle without problem.

I think it's fair to supose is not a Strong castle, but despite that the KING got hurt, by na arrow, this is a problem tough, a big problem, he is the King.

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, Chancho said:

I think it's fair to supose is not a Strong castle, but despite that the KING got hurt, by na arrow, this is a problem tough, a big problem, he is the King.

Yeah, but not a seriously one. Robb took a arrow in the arm and that was it. He was humping Jeyne few days after that.

[Chancho]

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yeah, but not a seriously one. Robb took a arrow in the arm and that was it. He was humping Jeyne few days after that.

I think it wasn't that serious too, but enough to make changes in his short term strategy at least and took him out of action for a little time too, he shouldn't be at harms way at all, so that was bad decision, bad, he could get arrowed some place else or die from a infected wound (Not counting the rest of the crap he did after he took the Crag).

[Arthur Peres]

That is not a military blunder. Anytime you take a the field you risk your life. He was able to acomplish his goal of taking the castle with very few casualities. Not a blunder.

[Chancho]

Just now, Arthur Peres said:

That is not a military blunder. Anytime you take a the field you risk your life. He was able to acomplish his goal of taking the castle with very few casualities. Not a blunder.

Why exactly he needs to risk himself taking a weaked garrisoned castle? He has an army with him to do that... This was significant enough because Tywin was on the move and close to the Golden Tooth way before Robb got a move on. So if Edmure let them pass, Tywin will have a headstart. Not even taking in account that Robb was bedridden like Bernie Mac pointed out.

[Arthur Peres]

Robb does not have much strenght to spare. Also he wasn't in a very risk position, the ones doing the most dangerous work there were Smalljon and Black Walder.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

that is just simply not true .

how is it not true? this is pointed out to Cat at Riverrun. GRRM provides the exposition to show that Robb should never have got past without a fight.

"How did the king ever take the Tooth?" Ser Perwyn Frey asked his bastard brother. "That's a hard strong keep, and it commands the hill road."

"He never took it. He slipped around it in the night. It's said the direwolf showed him the way, that Grey Wind of his.

Why do you think he included that part? Why does GRRM go into detail about how Robb, because of his magical direwolf, was able to avoid a fight? 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

If the men who were in the Golden Tooth were willing to come out and fight then Robb would have to fight them

how? he never went to the Tooth. He found a hidden secret entrance into the West and the men stationed there were none the wiser till after the battle of Oxcross. Once again, GRRM points this out for the reader. 

My mutton-headed uncle had not even troubled to post sentries, it would seem. His host was raw—apprentice boys, miners, fieldhands, fisherfolk, the sweepings of Lannisport. The only mystery is how your brother reached him. Our forces still hold the stronghold at the Golden Tooth, and they swear he did not pass."

Again, for what purpose do you think GRRM is giving this information? 

 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

but those were the same men who were beaten at the Battle of the Camps so doubtful that they would have tried to stop Robb ,

no, they were not beaten, they were unable to get involved in the battle. The Blackfish, being in his own homeland, was able to use the territory against them. 

And you are confusing deserters with soldiers. Soldiers still under command rarely refuse to follow orders. They don't stop fighting because they suffered a defeat. Notice how Roose's men were sent against a larger army at the Green Fork and they did so, any many were then ordered to go face similar odds at Duskendale and they did so. 

What on earth are you basing this on? 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

they would have alerted Satafford however .  The castle guards the pass but it does not block the pass . 

Dude, research castles and what they were used for in medieval times. I hate to be rude but your ignorance on the subject is a serious roadblock on this conversation as you are making ill informed statements. 

"That's a hard strong keep, and it commands the hill road."

Many castles are placed in strategic places to be effective to stop travelling armies from passing. Notice how Moat Cailin does not cover every inch of land of the border between the Neck and the North yet no army from the south has ever successfully passed. Castles are not just places for Lords to chillax at, or used to flee and hide from the enemy, they are also defensive positions that can be used to harry and more effectively attack, if not outright stop an enemy from advancing. 

 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I don't think that was a reply to me. 

No, the person's name I replied to is quoted above it. Why would you think it was for you?

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

this is the part you can't seem grasp .

Of course I grasp it. Please quote where you think I have said otherwise? What I have been quite clear is that Robb,  outnumbered in enemy territory with many castles does not get to dictate when if a battle happens. 

 Most of the advantages in this situation belong to the home side. That is why Robb's plan, if it was ever a real plan, is flawed. I get it, you think the sun shines out of Robb and the Blackfish's backside but just because they say something does not make it true. 

If Tywin or Stannis were in the North, Vale, Dorne, Riverlands, Reach, Vale or Stormlands facing an army 4x time their number, facing an enemy at the same technological level (if anything the West may be a little more advanced), a system of communication between settlements and a hostile populace then they would more than likely be beaten. This is about simple odds. The commander does not really come into it. They would all be a longshot to win against those odds. 

Quote

The odds of Robb defeating Tywin in his homeland with a smaller force is very  small but the odds of him managing to stay away from Tywin and managing to survive a few weeks is much higher 

 

No, not really. Not when we know he was bedridden at the time Tywin was heading for him. He was fucked. Even ignoring that he still does not get to dictate when he gets to fight as

• Robb's forces have to sleep in enemy territory, this requires finding the right land and building a solid camp that can be defended in case of a surprise ambush, Tywin gets to stay in whichever is the nearest castle
• Robb's forces have to forage or fight for food or slow down his progress with baggage trains with enough food for 6,000 men, while Tywin gets to eat at whichever castle is nearest. 
• Robb can be ambushed at nearby settlements, or face blockades to impede his progress or even have him turn in directions that is not best for him
• Robb, who was at the Crag when Tywin was heading West, is limited in his direction as he can not head directly East towards Tywin nor can he really head towards Casterly Rock and risk being trapped between Tywin and Daven. He is limited in the direction he can go
• Tywin has the access of ravens across his entire realm, he is going to be able to better coordinate his strategy and have better information

 

Now I have been pretty clear, Robb being successful is not impossible but the odds were against him and in enemy territory during war all it takes is one silly mistake, like him getting injured at the Crag, to seriously diminish his chances even further. 

The odds were against him, tangible reasons give Tywin the advantage in this conflict and all I get in response is that "the Blackfish is confident so he would have won." 

 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

No where does Blackfish make any grand claims about them beating Tywin but he has a plan just to keep him engaged in the West , maybe i'm being naive but it seems pretty reasonable that they could at the least keep Tywin moving for a little while . 

Sure, days, weeks at most. Not the 6 months that Stannis was expected to take Kings Landing. That is why the plan sounds dubious.

• Robb and the Blackfish had no idea that Stannis had a magical shadow baby so them counting on Storm's End falling so soon is not something they could have planned on
  • The Blackfish wisely ignores the Tyrells when blaming Edmure for Stannis' loss on the Blackwater
  • the Blackfish wisely ignores the fact that a messenger or a raven at the Golden Tooth could have reached Tywin even after he passed Edmure and he could still have made it back to Kings Landing in time given the battle of the fords lasted days
  • the Blackfish wisely ignores mentioning to Edmure about Robb's injury that rules him out of being able to lead Tywin on a merry choice

In short the Blackfish's plan is a little too contrived. Robb went West to meet up with Theon and he could not have heard about his betrayal till late in the game. But we are expected that on the fly they were able to come up with a plan that would end the war and it was only Edmure's actions, the man he is in desperate need to marry a Frey to make up for Robb's mistake, that had Stannis lose on the Blackwater. It sounds suspicious and a little too convenient and when we look at the actual facts of the situation it makes zero sense. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Considering Robb died because of Edmure's action

No he did not. It was Robb's choice to marry Jeyne, it was Robb's choice to execute Karstark and turn the Karstark foot against him, Edmure had nothing to do with giving Roose the Northern foot and leaving him to do as he pleased for more than half a year. And when Cat pleaded with her son to make peace on the way to the Twins it was not Edmure's choice to refuse, it was Robb and his pride. 

Robb, like Tywin, died because of his own actions. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

means that Edmure did not save anybody's ass .

Well he did. We all die eventually, Edmure simply prolonged Robb's life giving him the freedom to make even more mistakes. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Even if Robb had been hurt before Tywin came West(which we don't really know the timeline) , he would have plenty of time to recover .

Nope. The books are clear that Robb was heading to the Crag before the battle of the Fords. GRRM makes mention of this both before and after the battle.

Not only that but Cat learns about the Battle of Blackwater first then the fate of Bran and Rickon while Robb hearing the news of his brothers is what sends him over the edge to sleep with his nurse Jeyne.  Riverrun would certainly have received word about Bran and Rickon before the Crag. 

Robb, according to the available information we have in the books. would have been injured and still bedridden when Tywin arrived. Edmure did both Tywin and Robb a favor when he gave battle to Tywin. 

 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It would have taken Tywin a couple of weeks to get to the Crag from the Golden Tooth

Likely less time than it took Tywin to go from Riverrun to Kings Landing, defeat Stannis and then word send out to the realm. 

The timing looks very bad for the injured Robb. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

so plenty of time for Robb to be able to ride . When he returned to Riverrun he was fully recovered so it could not have been that bad of a injury . 

He returned to Riverrun about three months after the Battle of Blackwater. On what basis are you claiming it was not a bad injury?

Besides, we know that he was still being nursed when the news of Bran and Rickon came to him. GRRM has provided us with a lot of details of concurrent events so we can deduce when these chapters are taking place. 

 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

So you say that sieges are not unpredictable and the siege of Storms End should have lasted 6 months so tell me how long did the siege of Storms End last ?

Dude, the author is clear, Stannis is clear and Tyrion is clear. Storm's End, one of the two strongest castles in the entire realm, when not taken by a magical shadow baby, is expected to last longer than half a year. The characters and the author are not pulling this information from out of thin air, they are basing it on how strong the castle is and the previous times it held out such as the year against Mace or the two years against the Gardener King. 

That is not to say that it could not fall sooner, but the odds suggest it would not. I don't know if you are a sports fan but any competitive game of sport could go either way but that does not mean one result is not more predictable than the other. The odds, according to very well informed people in the series, considered that Storm's End would last for at least 6 months (Stannis and GRRM actually state a year, but I gave Tyrion's minimum)

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

oh that's right just a few days , isn't that kinda of unpredictable ? 

Yes. Magic does that. Not to be rude, but your knowledge of predictability is disgraceful. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Maester Luwin sent Alebelly away and closed his door. “My lords,” he said gravely, “we have had a message from His Grace, with both good news and ill. He has won a great victory in the west, shattering a Lannister army at a place named Oxcross, and has taken several castles as well. He writes us from Ashemark, formerly the stronghold of House Marbrand.”

At Riverrun and from Robb we only hear of Ashemark and the Crag.  We hear of the mines they took, the cattle but no other castle nor does it mention any other castles took in the appendix. 

if you can name the other castles or the lords who ruled them then I will concede but the information we have is only two castles that were taken. 

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I didn't mean that they fought each other but that the Freys left Robb's cause and went home alone. 

Then your point makes no sense at all. You mention they clashed and boasted how this was not a problem for Robb. Them leaving without any battle is obviously going to be no problem. From what you originally wrote it suggested you didn't actually know what happened. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Robb captured several castles there, he cleary set up the terrain,

two that we know of. I am happy to hear the names of Lords of these other castles.

And of course he can read a map, but his knowledge of the terrain is still going to be inferior to that of Tywin and his army, that is simply a fact. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I doubt very much that he would left hostile castles behind to cut him from the supplies or his way out. Remember they don't even know from where he came.

and that is your entire argument, rather than rely on what actually happened in the book your entire argument is based on your feelings. you don't think Robb would have left the Ashemark without a garrison so  he didnt, you don't think the Blackfish could come up with a plan that was not successful so in your head he must have been right.

this is the problem, I am trying to discuss the odds and information we know and you are arguing with your heart rather than your head. Robb can't be wrong so you will just ignore all the actual information we have 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

"this is the frustrating part, having to argue with people who have not even read the books properly. " 

wow a smiley face. great comeback, clearly you are on solid ground. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

No it's not, Robb was days ahead of Tywin he had the time to recover,

Citation? We know that Riverrun hears of the Blackwater before the news of Bran and Rickon and that Robb was still being nursed when the Greatjon gives him the news of his brothers

all the information we have suggests he was bedriden for more than days, if you have any sources from the book that contradict this I would love to hear them. if you are basing this assumption on your feelings then you should probably keep that to yourself.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

also his injury was so bad that he was "jumping on Jeynes bed".

Why is that in quotation marks? that phrase never comes up in the books.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=jumping+on+Jeynes+bed

You do understand what quotation marks are used for, right? 

 

I even searched 'jump and bed' and 'Jeyne and bed' and there was nothing about Robb jumping on it 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=jumping++bed

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=jeyne+bed

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

When he tell us that he was wounded in battle he never treat this as a wound, only Cat gets scared over it because she doesn't know the details.

eh? he makes it clear that he was bedridden, that he was not healthy enough to move and had to rely on enemy nobles to nurse him back. 

and something does not have to be 'grievous' to keep someone bedridden for months. Plus Robb is now an adult, do you think he is about to whine to his mother, who has just found out her other sons are dead, about how tough he had it? 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Edmure fucked everything up by keeping Tywin on his lands,

No, he likely saved Robb's life. 

Even if he did allow him to pass there is nothing to suggest the Tyrells would not have easily beaten Stannis. 

Even if he did allow them to pass there is nothing stopping Tywin from receiving a messenger or a raven at the Golden Tooth and turning right around. 

Edmure didnt fuck up anything, Robb's vague orders did. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Edmure's plan was cleary a failure.

 

Actually it was not. His plan was to guard Tywin's rear, like we are told he was ordered to do, win back Harrenhal and give Tywin no base of operations in the Riverlands leaving him exposed and no longer in a position to carry out the chevauchee there. 

It was a pretty effective plan that worked. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

He couldn't kill Tywin,

He could, but I agree that was unlikely, however that was not the gameplan. He is very clear on his goals. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

he failled to cut him out from his retreat to Kings Landing and to trap him between 3 armies.

 

Well yeah, like Robb he had no idea about the Tyrells nor did Robb let him know just how long he would be in the West. Clear case of the shit rolling down the hill. Edmure had to improvise due to the radio silence of Robb. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

He never reached any of his goals in the battle.

Yeah, he did. Harrnehall was one of his goals, bringing peace to the Riverlands was a goal. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

You talk like the position Blackfish choose to take was a place surrounded by castles.

Yeah, it pretty much would be. There is at least 38 Lordships in the Westerlands, an unknown amount of knights with their own holdfasts, the second or third most populated region while also being the richest increased the amount of castles there is likely to be in a region that is less than a fith the size of the North. 

There is going to be a fair amount of castles, the entrances into the Westerlands are going to be well fortifed, similar to the Golden Tooth, and because of the Ironborn the coast, the route the Blackfish was planning on taking, would also have more castles per square mile than the central are of the Westerlands. 

If you disagree with any of the above because of knowledge rather than feelings I would be greatful to hear it.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

It cleary isn't

How so? Given that it is a subjective statement with no numbers attached how on earth can you claim my thoughts on the subject are wrong?

What tangible statement to do you think 'clearly isn't'? 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

and even if it is Robb cleary took the hostile castles in the zone. He set up his the location is dumb to think he would choose a field where he would be in disavantage.

He's not got much of a choice, that is one of the drawbacks of fighting in enemy territory, the invading side does not usually get to decide the terms. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Tywin is the one marching Robb can do the wait game or the run game. The iniciative in on Robb's side.

Except he can't, not if he wants to sleep, feed and have to abandon the more direct routes because castles or unforeseen problems are in his way. The advantages are with the home side just like they would be with Robb if the same thing was happening in the North. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

No it wasn't. Robb took the castle without problem.

You are kidding right? Are you that desperate to be right that you have ignored Robb being injured and then bedridden. Or are you under the mistaken impression that is not a problem? 

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yeah, but not a seriously one. Robb took a arrow in the arm and that was it. He was humping Jeyne few days after that.

Where is it claimed that it was a few days after? And you do realize that sex is not nearly as strenuous as riding of most of the day in light Armour. 

[Trigger Warning]

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I doubt very much that he would left hostile castles behind to cut him from the supplies or his way out. Remember they don't even know from where he came.

The entire point of castles is that they're hard to take by storm, most castles in history that were captured didn't fall to storm. It's not like Robb has much choice in leaving castles untaken or taken. The idea that Robb can march into the West without some level of castle, keep  or fortification being between himself and where he came from is ridiculous, are you suggesting he besieges and captures every fortress in the West along his line of march? Castles are entirely too undervalued in this community, maybe GRRM's had a pretty heavy influence on that but come on. 

[Arthur Peres]

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

At Riverrun and from Robb we only hear of Ashemark and the Crag.  We hear of the mines they took, the cattle but no other castle nor does it mention any other castles took in the appendix. 

if you can name the other castles or the lords who ruled them then I will concede but the information we have is only two castles that were taken. 

English is not my first language but several means more then 3 at the very least right?

Also this quote is before Robb even march on the Craig. Stop being stuborn. 

We already had this discussion on the Balon invading the westerlands topic, we don't have the details of Robb's campaing, we don't know where the locations of the westerlands are.

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Then your point makes no sense at all. You mention they clashed and boasted how this was not a problem for Robb. Them leaving without any battle is obviously going to be no problem. From what you originally wrote it suggested you didn't actually know what happened. 

My point is that the Freys alone were able to march back to the riverlands without trouble. 

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, it pretty much would be. There is at least 38 Lordships in the Westerlands, an unknown amount of knights with their own holdfasts, the second or third most populated region while also being the richest increased the amount of castles there is likely to be in a region that is less than a fith the size of the North. 

There is going to be a fair amount of castles, the entrances into the Westerlands are going to be well fortifed, similar to the Golden Tooth, and because of the Ironborn the coast, the route the Blackfish was planning on taking, would also have more castles per square mile than the central are of the Westerlands. 

If you disagree with any of the above because of knowledge rather than feelings I would be greatful to hear it.

Let's play your game. Show me now on the map were is the position that Blackfish took and the 38 castles you claim that surround the place...

 

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except he can't, not if he wants to sleep, feed and have to abandon the more direct routes because castles or unforeseen problems are in his way. The advantages are with the home side just like they would be with Robb if the same thing was happening in the North. 

Sure because only Robb has to eat and sleep while Tywin comand the army of the others and won't stop marching ever...Robb has days maybe weaks of advantage, his troops are all mounted and move faster.

 

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How so? Given that it is a subjective statement with no numbers attached how on earth can you claim my thoughts on the subject are wrong?

 What tangible statement to do you think 'clearly isn't'? 

The fact that Blackfish is not idiot to trap his army surrounded by enemy forces

 

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's not got much of a choice, that is one of the drawbacks of fighting in enemy territory, the invading side does not usually get to decide the terms. 

Quote

What is your point here?

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are kidding right? Are you that desperate to be right that you have ignored Robb being injured and then bedridden. Or are you under the mistaken impression that is not a problem? 

 

A minor injury. You act like Robb got the Loras treatment. He was humping Jeyne no long after that.

 

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is it claimed that it was a few days after? And you do realize that sex is not nearly as strenuous as riding of most of the day in light Armour. 

this may surprise you but no, a arrow in the arm won't stop someone to ride a horse. Alexander the great nearly died at the siege of Multan with a arrow in his chest, and even so he was marching again in less than a mounth after that. Robb when is with Catelyn also treats the wound as a minor think.

[Arthur Peres]

17 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

The entire point of castles is that they're hard to take by storm, most castles in history that were captured didn't fall to storm. It's not like Robb has much choice in leaving castles untaken or taken. The idea that Robb can march into the West without some level of castle, keep  or fortification being between himself and where he came from is ridiculous, are you suggesting he besieges and captures every fortress in the West along his line of march? Castles are entirely too undervalued in this community, maybe GRRM's had a pretty heavy influence on that but come on. 

A well provised castle with a good garrison.

The north took less than 20k men and we hear that castles like hornwood and deepwood mottle are poorly guarded, how much better do you think the westerlands are after Tywin taking more than 35k out of there?

GRRM made a very poor job of taking castles serious, Theon took winterfell with 30 men in a night...

[Chancho]

44 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

A well provised castle with a good garrison.

The north took less than 20k men and we hear that castles like hornwood and deepwood mottle are poorly guarded, how much better do you think the westerlands are after Tywin taking more than 35k out of there?

GRRM made a very poor job of taking castles serious, Theon took winterfell with 30 men in a night...

But Golden Tooth specially is one of the best guarded castles during the Series, could be something closer to 5000 thousands blokes there... That's the way West besides goat track. After Robb took 2 castles, every castellan must be in high alert, any 50 something garrison will put a fight, this guys are on horses and with no siege weapons.
Even storming the weaker Crag Robb managed to get hurt.

[Chancho]

57 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

My point is that the Freys alone were able to march back to the riverlands without trouble.

That is a good point, maybe not well tought by martin (i don't know), but hey, they could just be using the same goat track, as long as they ain't be chased, i think they will be fine going there.

But is good to remember that Tywin would get to the Golden tooth way sooner than Robb, because Tywin was almost there before Robb even get out of the Crag. So he couldn't use that track if Tywin passes first to the west.

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

h

Dude, research castles and what they were used for in medieval times. I hate to be rude but your ignorance on the subject is a serious roadblock on this conversation as you are making ill informed statements. 

"That's a hard strong keep, and it commands the hill road."

 

 

Dude I know what a castle is and what it does . A castle may sit next to a road or "command " the road but they usually don't block the road .  Harrenhall is one of the strongest castles in Westeros but if Tywin can't take it from Lady Whent it does not mean he has to turn around and go back , he can just ride right by it . As long as he stays far enough from the walls he would have no problem . Same with Winterfell or even Casterly Rock , if the enemy outside is too strong then they would just stay behind the walls and watch them ride by just like Cat suggested Edmure do to Tywin at Riverrun . Storms End , Kings Landing , Crag , Ashemark etc none of these castles will physically stop an enemy from passing by as far as i know but the main reason to take a castle like the Golden Tooth would be to protect your supply lines but Robb is planning on living off the Westerlands so there is no reason  to take the Golden Tooth .  Why would the 4000 men in the Golden Tooth come out and fight Robb when they can simply send a raven to Stafford and let him deal with him . I guarantee that when Robb left the West he simply road past the Golden Tooth and the men inside just waved at him when he passed , why would they try to stop him from leaving ?

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

A well provised castle with a good garrison.

Yes. Why would you think that many of the castles in the West were not in such a state? The Crag alone had a larger and more experienced garrison than the one Robb left Winterfell and we know how both poor they were and how low on the importance rung they were in the Westerlands. I'd imagine the majority of Lords would have left their castle better defended. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The north took less than 20k men and we hear that castles like hornwood and deepwood mottle are poorly guarded, how much better do you think the westerlands are after Tywin taking more than 35k out of there?

The North and the West are not the same. Seems a poor comparison, just because one area was left poorly defended and unprepared does not mean the other was. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

GRRM made a very poor job of taking castles serious, Theon took winterfell with 30 men in a night...

No, not all castles. There are far more examples of sieges lasting a decent amount of time, Winterfell's capture and Storm's End being taken by magic is clearly not the norm in Westeros. Rodrik with 2,000 men was not successful against those same 30 men, Riverrun in AGOT is able to withstand Jaime's siege, the generals with Robb point out how ineffective it would be to try to take the Twins,  we hear of how the Dreadfort was able to last a two year siege against the Starks, Crakehall was able to stay strong against Maegor,  Storm's End under Stannis more than a year and a Durrandon King to hold out for two years, Deepwood Motte takes months to take, in AFFC we see both Riverrun and Raventree Hall hold up after half a year of being held under siege. And these are just off the top of my head. 

Winterfell is just one of many, many examples. 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Also this quote is before Robb even march on the Craig. Stop being stuborn. 

I'm not being stubborn. When people are singing the tales of Robb in the West and there is zero mention of these castles or the Lords who lost their lands

Her men wanted to hear more of Robb's victory at Oxcross, and Rivers obliged. "There's a singer come to Riverrun, calls himself Rymund the Rhymer, he's made a song of the fight. Doubtless you'll hear it sung tonight, my lady. 'Wolf in the Night,' this Rymund calls it." He went on to tell how the remnants of Ser Stafford's host had fallen back on Lannisport. Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands. Lords Karstark and Glover were raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont had captured thousands of cattle and was driving them back toward Riverrun, while the Greatjon had seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep, and the Pendric Hills. Ser Wendel laughed. 

The same is true in Kings Landing when they are detailing Robb's exploits.

 It would not surprise him to learn that Lady Sybell had brought more wealth to the marriage than her highborn husband. The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold. A romantic ruin, though, jutting up so brave above the sea.

 

  So either there has been some kind of miscommunication, or these other castles and the knights/lords who rule them are completely insignificant. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

We already had this discussion on the Balon invading the westerlands topic, we don't have the details of Robb's campaing, we don't know where the locations of the westerlands are.

Know but we know what the his followers and men are boasting about. Taking important castles would be sung about more than livestock. 

I actually ended that conversation because I thought I'd let you and the Blackfish have the final word. I didn't know that shit would go to your head. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

My point is that the Freys alone were able to march back to the riverlands without trouble. 

Why would they not? Tywin was not in the West and the Westerland nobles are not psychic, they are not going to know they split up.

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Let's play your game. Show me now on the map were is the position that Blackfish took and the 38 castles you claim that surround the place...

How can I show you a position that the Blackfish more than likely made up because Robb was desperate for Edmure to marry a Frey? 

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . ."

Robb is desperate to in win back the Freys, there is a legitimate reason why Robb and the Blackfish would manipulate Edmure, it is for the greater good. The very same chapter this happens Cat herself realizes she is being manipulated by her son

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king. 

Winning back the Freys is worth manipulating Edmure. Robb and the Blackfish are desperate to win, if that means pulling the wool over Edmure's eyes then they will do it. Even Ned Stark has been shown to lie when it is necessary. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Sure because only Robb has to eat and sleep while Tywin comand the army of the others and won't stop marching ever..

dude, please learnt to read.  As I quite clearly pointed out, Tywin has access to the castles of the West for protection while resting and for food supplies. Robb does not, ipso facto Robb is at the disadvantage, capeesh? 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb has days maybe weaks of advantage, his troops are all mounted and move faster.

Tywin has more cavarly and Robb was injured at the Crag. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The fact that Blackfish is not idiot to trap his army surrounded by enemy forces

Again, you are arguinig about your feelings on the matter rather than the facts. I get it, you like and admire the Blackfish but that does not mean he can not be wrong about something. 

If this was any other commanders but Robb and the Blackfish with the exact same odds this would not be a debate 7 pages long were the same two people can't accept that their favorite characters are in a position were the odds are against them. It is ridiculous and the fact that the one argument the two of you keep on resorting to is that the Blackfish can't be wrong makes it shows neither are you care about the reality of the situation.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

What is your point here?

Pretty clear. Reread it. Robb, in enemy territory, does not get to dictate what happens. There are far too many variables for that to happen. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

A minor injury.

Not how it is described in the books. Minor injuries don't leave the victim bedridden for a number of weeks. They don't rely on enemy women to be forced to take care of them. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

You act like Robb got the Loras treatment.

No, I don't. Stop exaggerating. I am simply pointing out what the books tell us, he was too sick to move from the Crag till he recuperated. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

He was humping Jeyne no long after that.

Ask your parents about 'humping'' and how little energy it can take. 

Having sex and horse riding with armor for 10-12 hours a day are not the same level of exertion. Your belief that Robb having sex weeks later (going by the time frame we know) after he was injured means he was not seriously injured reveals more about yourself than ti does Robb. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

this may surprise you but no, a arrow in the arm won't stop someone to ride a horse.

Are you under the impression that every injury of an arrow through an arm has he exact same consequences? 

The books are clear, he was bedridden and stuck at the Crag while he was nursed better. You don't like it, take it up with the author.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Alexander the great nearly died at the siege of Multan with a arrow in his chest, and even so he was marching again in less than a mounth after that.

So even with this example you are stating that Robb would be unable to march for almost a month. Given that Tywin was heading West the same time Robb was taking the Crag then the timeline suggests he would still be injured by the time Tywin arrived. 

Edmure saved his life. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Robb when is with Catelyn also treats the wound as a minor think.

How so? Why would a minor injury incapacitate him for a number of weeks?  It is clear we don't have the same idea what the word minor means.