Did Edmure save Robb's Life?

[Chancho]

This battle hardened bullshit again, do you think Tywin's men were playing hide and see during war? Why strategies, placement and tatics only fits you when is Robb who is going to use? Tywin can use all that...

... If Tywin is chasing him, he will be hurrying, he can do well or not (he can't lose time tought, so have to be careful with that), battle of the fords is an example. Tywin knows Robb want to go EAST, he don't even need large army to block the way  wich is narrow, there is tons of advantage of him being there first and preparing the terrain... HOW is Tywin just allowing Robb to go east, if Tywin's will be there first?

If King's Landing fell and Tywin surrender... Robb has a good argument, but those things can be predicted truly and if Tywin wants to get less fucked he has to get some upper hand on Robb (or at least try anyway), or he doesn't get Jaime back ever.

*Tywin's men fought, raided, pillaged and conquered more than anyone stop using this excuse... They are battle hardened

*The Freys are gone.

[Blackfish Tully]

33 minutes ago, Chancho said:

This battle hardened bullshit again, do you think Tywin's men were playing hide and see during war? Why strategies, placement and tatics only fits you when is Robb who is going to use? Tywin can use all that...

... If Tywin is chasing him, he will be hurrying, he can do well or not (he can't lose time tought, so have to be careful with that), battle of the fords is an example. Tywin knows Robb want to go EAST, he don't even need large army to block the way  wich is narrow, there is tons of advantage of him being there first and preparing the terrain... HOW is Tywin just allowing Robb to go east, if Tywin's will be there first?

If King's Landing fell and Tywin surrender... Robb has a good argument, but those things can be predicted truly and if Tywin wants to get less fucked he has to get some upper hand on Robb (or at least try anyway), or he doesn't get Jaime back ever.

*Tywin's men fought, raided, pillaged and conquered more than anyone stop using this excuse... They are battle hardened

  *The Freys are gone

 

There are several ways out of the WesterlAnds so Tywin would need to block all of them and that means splitting his men up to several smaller groups which gets rid of his biggest advantage and who said Robb was looking to leave the Westerlands?, the whole point is to keep Tywin in the Westerlands . If one army wants to fight but the other is trying to just delay it can lead to a long drawn out affair . Tywin would be very careful because he is down to his last army because of Robb crushing two his armies and he still has Stannis to deal with plus the fact that Dorne and the Vale were still wildcards and could join the war at any time so he would not risk his men recklessly so he would be wary of splitting up his men and falling into any traps. 

Also how do you know that the way East is narrow? How narrow is it? 1 mile wide ? 5 miles wide? That can make a big difference 

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

The point of the exercise was to take the war to the Westerlands and harry Tywin Lannister's home base.

No, it was not. The original point of the exercise was to stop Stafford's host before they could trap Robb's forces at Riverrun, nothing about taking the war to the Westerlands. Edmure was given no such plan, Robb expected him to figure this out based purely on how long Robb had been gone

Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross?

Which on the face of it is ridiculous, which is probably why the men at Riverrun were under the impression that they were supposed to guard Robb's rear . While Theon thought the plan was for Robb and the Ironborn to meet up and quickly take the West before Tywin was even aware that he was being attacked and Cat was led to believe that she was negotiating an alliance with Renly (news of Stannis crowning himself only comes later) and for them to join together to beat Tywin. 

There does not appear to have been any actual plan set in stone when Robb and his chosen ambassadors left Riverrun, it seems he was winging it.  

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without that army, there is nothing to keep Robb from sacking castles and towns at will, meaning Tywin has to come back west.

The garrisons are there to prevent that. Notice how no towns were touched, the only important place Robb took was the Marbrand's Ashemark, nothing else, not even the ruinous Crag, was important. 

And no, it does not mean Tywin has to go west. Robb remains in the West for some time after the Backwater and Tywin does nothing and faces no uproar from his vassals over his inactivity. The very fact that Tywin did not enter the West while Robb was there proves he did not have to do anything. 

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Your summer working as a bookie has been wasted. 

No, that was almost a decade ago while I was still a student and it paid off my tuition for that year. It was far from wasted, buy good for you on giving an uneducated guess on something you know nothing about. 

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If Kings Landing falls, Tywin loses the war.Full stop.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  If you cannot understand this, you need to reread the books.

i'm sorry, can you quote where I or anyone else has suggested otherwise? please stick to arguments that have been made, not ones you imagine have been made. 

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You don't have much of a brain so you've constructed all these other scenarios, all of which also mean Tywin loses.

dude your constant need for petty insults to disguise how empty your points are not lost on anyone. 

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I'm not sure how "defend Riverrun" is vague.

clearly it was. It was not just Edmure but Mallister, Bracken, Blackwood and the other Riverland command who thought they were doing the right thing by defending Robb's rear. 

Either the 15 year Robb, commanding his first ever war, was vague with his meaning or all the lords at Riverrun are complete imbeciles. You can believe what you want, but I am going to go with common sense on that matter. 

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What would be more specific?  If he said "defend your lands," that would be vague.  He was told to hold a single, specific castle, and ONLY that single, specific castle.  It is not possible, and I mean that literally, to be more specific.

Except that does not appear to be the case. 

"Would that it were. My brother commands in Riverrun?"

"Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

Gods grant him the strength to do so, Catelyn thought. And the wisdom as well.

 

and it just so happens Theon thought the same thing

 

"Once it falls, he'll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin's host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west."

 

Now the Riverlords getting it wrong is one thing, but Theon also getting it wrong implies that the orders the teenage Robb gave were not clear.  They were vague, we know this because Robb and his subordinates were not on the same page. 

 

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And Robb is most certainly not clueless on the Tyrells position,

Yes he is. he chastises himself for not even realizing they were an option. 

"I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it," Robb said as they walked the gallery. "If I'd offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey's. I should have thought of that."

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since the first thing he says on coming back was "I told you not to stop Tywin specifically so that Stannis would take Kings Landing," showing he has a good understanding of the political situation

yes, months after it happened he is able to describe what happened. we can all do that. 

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- that the Tyrells have no reasonable claim to the throne after Renly's death and they can only help the Lannisters at that point.

exactly, he has zero idea if they would or would not have attacked Kings Landing with or without Tywin. he can not possibly know that, so him blaming Edmure for Stannis' defeat seems especially churlish, but reasonable given Robb's desperate position and his need to make Edmure quickly marry a Frey. 

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Edmure is a young aristocrat hungry for glory

as is Robb, really that describes much of the male nobility. 

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and to make up for earlier failures in a society where martial prowess is the highest form of social currency.  He sees his nephew hailed as a hero and military genius and wants some of that action, as he himself says.  That is why he disobeys a direct order.

except he didn't. there was no direct order, there was vague instructions

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 This cannot be clearer.  His instruction is highly specific and unambiguous. 

so how come no one in Riverrun thinks Edmure plan was wrong? 

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Except we know they didn't, because Robb stacks both Ashemark and the Crag, which shouldn't be possible, really, with well-garrisoned castles.

the ashemark is inland, behind the golden tooth, there is no real reason why a castle that far inland needs a strong garrison given that Robb was not expected to be able to enter the West without serious battle. 

the crag is a ruin ruled by a House that is heavily in debt, and even they had a stronger garrison than the Robb left Winterfell with. 

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The Greatjon captures a bunch of gold mines.  Maege Mormont raids the coast.  You know what that sounds like?  Like a bunch of armies, free to roam at will, capturing what should be well defended locations (castles, mines) and burning everything else.

while the vast majority of the nobility and their actual riches remain safe behind castle walls. 

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All of the main levies have been called up.  Tywin doesn't have a reserve of garrisoned forces to call upon, they're all fighting with him in the Riverlands.

well that seems bogus considering even the Westerlings had a stronger garrison than the Starks themselves had

The Westerlings were old blood, but they had more pride than power. It would not surprise him to learn that Lady Sybell had brought more wealth to the marriage than her highborn husband. The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold. A romantic ruin

The majority of the other Lords will have had stronger garrisons than that at the Crag. 

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You are aware that Robb is with a big honkin army, and not doing all of this literally by himself, right?

obviously. can you quote the passage where I suggested Robb was all alone in the West? 

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  And that Tywin is reacting not to Robb's presence, but the presence of that big army burning the shit out of his vassals' lands and peasants and goods, right? 

 

According to GRRM he is actually reacting to Stannis holding Storm's End under siege, but what would he know, right? 

And why did Tywin not bother to move out after the Blackwater? If Robb's presence was that much of a threat why does he do nothing when he has the biggest army he has ever had sitting doing nothing outside the walls of kings landing. 

His actions, and the lack of reactions from the Westerlands nobility, does not suggest that Robb's presence was as important as you describe it to be. 

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Cuz it doesn't seem like you understand that, at all.  Robb has lots of commanders, who, aside from Edmure, seem to get the big picture - get Tywin away from Kings Landing so Stannis can do his thing.

name all these commanders. quote them in the book. 

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Not the case.  You have an incredibly bad sense of how easy it is to supply a large army on the move,

well yes, if Robb chooses to travel with a baggage train then that slows him down. that is exactly my point, 

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Tywin can't just stop in a town and go to the grocery store;

He can actually stop at a castle and stock up, winter is coming, reserves will have been built up. we see this in the North, the reserves for winter are still there despite Robb's host making a much larger journey. 

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and Robb can just as easily sack the town collecting it as Tywin can stop there for the night.

he can that is my point and doing so takes time and risk. see, you are beginning to understand. 

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Again, horses don't grow on trees,

wait, were you under the impression that someone suggested they do? and you saying again, is this the second time you have had to point out horses don't grow on tree's? or do you just go around imagining arguments that have never been made? 

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 Owning and provisioning and stabling a horse is such an expensive proposition that it requires being given a bunch of land and its tax revenues to do it.

gee, it is a good thing that the Westerlands are the richest realm. those castles are going to have horses, I am not suggesting a single castle will have thousands or that his entire cavalry will have new horses but there are going to be a great deal of refreshed mounts at the cash rich settlements of the west. 

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And Robb doesn't need to build super well protected camps;

of course he is, it would be idiotic not to when he is in the middle of enemy territory. 

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And Robb can go around the road, you know? 

precisely my point, going around roads usually means longer journeys, see you do understand and on some level, though you will never admit it, agree. 

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And again, there aren't "many garrisons" of the West, which is why Robb's armies have such success in doing whatever the fuck they want after Oxcross.

you are confusing an army with a garrison. 

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You don't think that those garrisons would be defending castles

they are defending their castles, that is why for the most part Robb's army is concentrating on livestock and empty mines. 

the intelligent thing to do when there is a marauding army on horse is to let them do as they please while the majority are safe. this is pointed out for people like yourself in the very first book

 "Mind you, Princess, if the lords of the Seven Kingdoms have the wit the gods gave a goose, it will never come to that. The riders have no taste for siegecraft. I doubt they could take even the weakest castle in the Seven Kingdoms, but if Robert Baratheon were fool enough to give them battle . . . "

"Is he?" Dany asked. "A fool, I mean?"

 Ser Jorah considered that for a moment. "Robert should have been born Dothraki," he said at last. "Your khal would tell you that only a coward hides behind stone walls instead of facing his enemy with a blade in hand. The Usurper would agree. He is a strong man, brave . . . and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark . . . " He spat.

 

The Westerlands garrisons are doing what they are expected to do. This does not mean they do not exist. 

 

[Chancho]

6 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

There are several ways out of the WesterlAnds so Tywin would need to block all of them and that means splitting his men up to several smaller groups which gets rid of his biggest advantage and who said Robb was looking to leave the Westerlands?, the whole point is to keep Tywin in the Westerlands . If one army wants to fight but the other is trying to just delay it can lead to a long drawn out affair . Tywin would be very careful because he is down to his last army because of Robb crushing two his armies and he still has Stannis to deal with plus the fact that Dorne and the Vale were still wildcards and could join the war at any time so he would not risk his men recklessly so he would be wary of splitting up his men and falling into any traps. 

Also how do you know that the way East is narrow? How narrow is it? 1 mile wide ? 5 miles wide? That can make a big differenc

Narrow enought that the mapsof ice and fire only show a narrow road trought a mountain region as the only way... the rest of the área is mountains, mountains and mountains...should i say again the people on the book on both sides think there is not a way besides by the Golden tooth?

There is no splitting needed he has +- 20000 men, plus Golden tooth lot... Only has to place some of that blocking the road, good placing and some preparation for battle will do just Wonders... 

Robb don't even has the Freys,his army is small by this point... Saying he can just run freely is a exageration, if Tywin surrender Robb is good, but why the hell is giving up of getting this small army with a enemy king, he is already fucked anyway if king's landing fell...

I understand you have your point of view, but act like everything can only be in andvantage Robb,hethe one who indicate that they will give battle at some point.

[Blackfish Tully]

3 hours ago, Chancho said:

Narrow enought that the mapsof ice and fire only show a narrow road trought a mountain region as the only way... the rest of the área is mountains, mountains and mountains...should i say again the people on the book on both sides think there is not a way besides by the Golden tooth?

There is no splitting needed he has +- 20000 men, plus Golden tooth lot... Only has to place some of that blocking the road, good placing and some preparation for battle will do just Wonders... 

Robb don't even has the Freys,his army is small by this point... Saying he can just run freely is a exageration, if Tywin surrender Robb is good, but why the hell is giving up of getting this small army with a enemy king, he is already fucked anyway if king's landing fell...

I understand you have your point of view, but act like everything can only be in andvantage Robb,hethe one who indicate that they will give battle at some point.

Why would the Freys be gone? If Edmure does not slow down Tywin then there is no need for Robb to attack the Crag and so no marriage to Jeyne. 

You act like Tywin putting a few hundred men blocking the road is enough to stop Robb when he has over 6000 horsemen so you will need at least a few thousand soldiers to have any chance of stopping him, also you would need to block the Gold Road and the Ocean Road as well plus any other roads that are not on the map and just because you block the road does not mean there are not other ways around , the Westerlands are hundreds of miles across and down , that’s a lot of room to cover , probably about the size of Arizona. 

[Chancho]

He will surely find plenty of ways by the ocean road and surroundings, there is enough flat terrain there to do that, but South doesn't achieve much and leaves him far from war, allies and intel... But if you think you are going to Chile and the Andes Mountain for example and will be able to move without taking roads, well be prepared to hike to death and take a billions years to get somewhere if you get... You already know that concerning going east the choices are limited, people on the book already lay that clear so stop disputing that.

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Why would the Freys be gone? If Edmure does not slow down Tywin then there is no need for Robb to attack the Crag and so no marriage to Jeyne. 

He was already on his way to the Crag before Tywin battled Edmure

"At last word he was marching toward the Crag, the seat of House Westerling," said Maester Vyman. "If I dispatched a raven to Ashemark, it may be that they could send a rider after him."

and Riverrun receives news of both Edmure's victory and Robb's victory at the same time. 

 Even the servants were gone. She had given them leave to join the celebration.

The walls of the keep were thick, yet even so, they could hear the muffled sounds of revelry from the yard outside. Ser Desmond had brought twenty casks up from the cellars, and the smallfolk were celebrating Edmure's imminent return and Robb's conquest of the Crag by hoisting horns of nut-brown ale.

 

They happened around the same time, logically the battle of the Crag happened first as news of the Crag victory would take far longer to reach Riverrun than Edmure's. 

 

 

And we know Cat receives news of the fall of her sons at the same time as these celebrations

 

"Thank you, Maester, but no. I will not sleep away my grief. Bran and Rickon deserve better from me. Go and join the celebration, I will sit with my father for a time."

 

While at the same time Robb was still being nursed to health by Jeyne. 

 

It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." 

 

The timeline is more than clear.  Now he may not have lost the Freys by the time Tywin is close by but he certainly would have taken and been injured at the Crag. 

9 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

You act like Tywin putting a few hundred men blocking the road is enough to stop Robb when he has over 6000 horsemen

He does not have over 6,000 horsemen after the battle of Oxcross and he may not have even had that many before the battle either as 6,000 was what he had at before the battle of the Whispering Wood

Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends

By the time Tywin was coming West Robb's number was less than 4,500 including the Freys. 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was already on his way to the Crag before Tywin battled Edmure

"At last word he was marching toward the Crag, the seat of House Westerling," said Maester Vyman. "If I dispatched a raven to Ashemark, it may be that they could send a rider after him."

and Riverrun receives news of both Edmure's victory and Robb's victory at the same time. 

 Even the servants were gone. She had given them leave to join the celebration.

The walls of the keep were thick, yet even so, they could hear the muffled sounds of revelry from the yard outside. Ser Desmond had brought twenty casks up from the cellars, and the smallfolk were celebrating Edmure's imminent return and Robb's conquest of the Crag by hoisting horns of nut-brown ale.

 

They happened around the same time, logically the battle of the Crag happened first as news of the Crag victory would take far longer to reach Riverrun than Edmure's. 

 

 

And we know Cat receives news of the fall of her sons at the same time as these celebrations

 

"Thank you, Maester, but no. I will not sleep away my grief. Bran and Rickon deserve better from me. Go and join the celebration, I will sit with my father for a time."

 

While at the same time Robb was still being nursed to health by Jeyne. 

 

It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." 

 

The timeline is more than clear.  Now he may not have lost the Freys by the time Tywin is close by but he certainly would have taken and been injured at the Crag. 

 

 

 

maybe you are right about the timeline but it's definitely not "more than clear"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

 

the only timeline i have ever seen (link above)  shows the taking of the Crag a week after Tywin is turned back by Edmure but either way it makes it less likely that Robb will have time to marry Jeyne and lose the Freys if he knows that Tywin is coming . As for him being injured that probably not be as bad as you might think . He took an arrow in the arm and would have a couple of weeks to recover as Tywin would need to get from the Golden Tooth to the Crag . As long as Robb can ride he would be fine .

[Bernie Mac]

33 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

maybe you are right about the timeline but it's definitely not "more than clear"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

it pretty much is. that document gives zero reason why they have come to their conclusion so i am going to go with the books on this one. 

33 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

As for him being injured that probably not be as bad as you might think . He took an arrow in the arm and would have a couple of weeks to recover as Tywin would need to get from the Golden Tooth to the Crag . As long as Robb can ride he would be fine .

Robb is still being nursed by Jeyne when he hears news of his brothers, it is only after he is 'comforted' by her. Cat hears about her sons at the same time as the result of the battle of blackwater. we have a pretty accurate time frame. 

the distance between the green fork and the crag is smaller than the distance between the green fork and kings landing, given that Tywin has had time to get to kings landing we know he would have easily made it to the Crag before news of winterfell had reached Robb and while he was still bedridden. 

Edmure very likely saved Robb's life. 

[Blackfish Tully]

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

it pretty much is. that document gives zero reason why they have come to their conclusion so i am going to go with the books on this one. 

Robb is still being nursed by Jeyne when he hears news of his brothers, it is only after he is 'comforted' by her. Cat hears about her sons at the same time as the result of the battle of blackwater. we have a pretty accurate time frame. 

the distance between the green fork and the crag is smaller than the distance between the green fork and kings landing, given that Tywin has had time to get to kings landing we know he would have easily made it to the Crag before news of winterfell had reached Robb and while he was still bedridden. 

Edmure very likely saved Robb's life. 

you do realize that when Cat hears about something has nothing to do with when they actually happened . News in Westeros is not instantaneous so you can hear about two events on the same day when those two events may have happened days or weeks apart . The distance from Casterly Rock and Oxcross is a 3 day ride (we know this from the book ) so look at a map and you can see that for Tywin to go from the Golden Tooth to Oxcross looks to be a week of travel then around the mountain to the Crag looks like 10 days or maybe 2 weeks so Robb has plenty of time to recover before Tywin gets there especially if you are right that Oxcross happens before Battle of the Fords because it would take Tywin 3 or 4 days to make it to the Golden Tooth

.https://quartermaester.info/

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

you do realize that when Cat hears about something has nothing to do with when they actually happened .

of course I do, i have actually made this point to you when discussing this subject. Before the battle of the Fords she asks where Robb is and she is told the last they heard she he was on his way to the Crag. or that the news of the Crag reaching Riverrun at the same time as Edmure's celebration meant that it likely happened before the battle of the fords, not a week later. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

News in Westeros is not instantaneous so you can hear about two events on the same day when those two events may have happened days or weeks apart .

of course. but lets face facts, Riverrun will have been sent word of Winterfell before the Crag. Cat will have received the news before Robb anjd because we know he was still injured when he heard the news we have a clearer understanding of the timeline. 

Robb is still injured when the battle of blackwater takes place, the fords are far, far closer to the Crag than Kings Landing is so even ignoring the battle and the time it would have took a raven to reach Riverun about the victory would give Tywin more than enough time to get to the crag while Robb is still injured. 

Edmure saved his life. 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

Robb is still injured when the battle of blackwater takes place, the fords are far, far closer to the Crag than Kings Landing is so even ignoring the battle and the time it would have took a raven to reach Riverun about the victory would give Tywin more than enough time to get to the crag while Robb is still injured. 

Edmure saved his life. 

 

i will not argue timelines with you , the POV system makes timelines very difficult to keep up with but i will argue that the Crag is definitely not "far, far closer than Kings Landing" especially if you are talking about an army traveling on land . Look at the map , Tywin would have to go from the Ford to  the Golden Tooth and then down the length of the Westerlands to get to Oxcross and then several days of travel to get around the mountains and then up the coast road, we are looking at several weeks and hundreds of miles of hard traveling . To get to Kings Landing all Tywin had to do was march to Tumbler Falls and then floated down the river and disembarked half a day from Kings Landing so it would have taken him far less time for him to get to Kings landing then it would have to the Crag .

Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear."

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

sorry for the two separate replies but i'm having trouble with the quote system

We don't know what the state of Robb's injury was when he heard the news of Bran and Rickon

I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell

It says that Jeyne was with him when he heard the news of Bran and Rickon but it does not not make it clear whether or not that was before or after the fever had passed.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

i will not argue timelines with you , the POV system makes timelines very difficult to keep up with but i will argue that the Crag is definitely not "far, far closer than Kings Landing" especially if you are talking about an army traveling on land .

The crag is closer to the Riverrun/ the Fords than Kings Landing is. 

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Look at the map ,

I have done, Riverrun is clearly closer to the Crag than it is to Kings Landing. How can you be confused on this. Going by the map and using the Wall as scale (which is 300m) we can deduce that it is around 750 miles from Riverrun to Kings Landing and just under 600 between the Crag and Riverrun. 

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Tywin would have to go from the Ford to  the Golden Tooth and then down the length of the Westerlands to get to Oxcross and then several days of travel to get around the mountains and then up the coast road,

What mountains? Where is it stated there is nothing but mountains in the way of the Crag? 

Theon claims Robb would be out of the mountains within a day "By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth," Theon said. "Once it falls, he'll be through the hills in a day." and we know. according to the app, that Oxcross is located near the pass of the Golden Tooth while we also know that it is only three days ride from Lanniport. 

and you are acting like there are no such obtacles in the Riverlands, its many rivers would also mean a direct route can't be taken. 

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we are looking at several weeks and hundreds of miles of hard traveling .

Well no, that is clearly bullshit. How on earth did Tywin beat Ned to kings Landing if the journey, just to the fords, would have taken several weeks? 

You are going to have to come up with evidence as this comes across like a desperate attempt to save face over your position that the injured, outnumbered and in enemy territory somehow was not against the odds. 

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To get to Kings Landing all Tywin had to do was march to Tumbler Falls and then floated down the river and disembarked half a day from Kings Landing so it would have taken him far less time for him to get to Kings landing then it would have to the Crag .

There is 150 miles difference and the battle to be fought and won before the raven could leave and reach Cat. 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

We don't know what the state of Robb's injury was when he heard the news of Bran and Rickon

we know it was serious enough that he was bedridden and his men had to trust in enemies to nurse him back to health 

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell

It says that Jeyne was with him when he heard the news of Bran and Rickon but it does not not make it clear whether or not that was before or after the fever had passed.

I noticed you did not finish your quote. 

 And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers' names. "That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother."

 

He was still being nursed, the relationship happened after the news. And it is another few months before he returns back to Riverrun while we hear of no more victories, stands to reason that it was their leaders injury that delayed them so long. 

[Blackfish Tully]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The crag is closer to the Riverrun/ the Fords than Kings Landing is. 

I have done, Riverrun is clearly closer to the Crag than it is to Kings Landing. How can you be confused on this. Going by the map and using the Wall as scale (which is 300m) we can deduce that it is around 750 miles from Riverrun to Kings Landing and just under 600 between the Crag and Riverrun. 

 

let's say you are right and it's 600 miles to the Crag? how long would it take Tywin to march his army there ? if they go 20 miles a day it would take 30 days which i would think would be plenty of time for Robb to recover from his arrow wound , at least enough to ride.

 

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

. 

 

and you are acting like there are no such obtacles in the Riverlands, its many rivers would also mean a direct route can't be taken. 

 

it's funny that you mention rivers as being obstacles and completely ignore my quote were it stated that Tywin floated down the river all the way from Tumbler Falls to half a day from Kings Landing , that would have cut the time it took to Kings Landing dramatically .  how long would it take to float down the river compared to marching 500 or so miles ?

Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear."

 

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I noticed you did not finish your quote. 

 And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers' names. "That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother."

 

He was still being nursed, the relationship happened after the news. And it is another few months before he returns back to Riverrun while we hear of no more victories, stands to reason that it was their leaders injury that delayed them so long. 

all it says is that she was with him but we have no idea what state he was in at the time or where they were when the news was given to him . They could have been on a walk or eating dinner or just hanging out not to mention that they had sex that night so he could not have too bad off .

[Bernie Mac]

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

let's say you are right and it's 600 miles to the Crag?

it is actually less than 600, but I rounded up. there is over a 150 mile difference between the distances from Riverrun to the Crag and Riverrun to Kings Landing. The Crag is nearer. 

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

how long would it take Tywin to march his army there ?

around a similar amount of time it took Tywin to get to kings landing

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

if they go 20 miles a day it would take 30 days which i would think would be plenty of time for Robb to recover from his arrow wound , at least enough to ride.

except thanks to the ravens spreading news we have a fair understanding of the timeline

Cat receives news of her sons death at the same time as news of Tywin's win on the blackwater, Robb is still being nursed when he hears of his brothers murder and then has sex with his nurse.

logically Robb would still have been injured by the time Tywin made the shorter journey to the Crag.

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

it's funny that you mention rivers as being obstacles and completely ignore my quote were it stated that Tywin floated down the river all the way from Tumbler Falls to half a day from Kings Landing ,

you do realize there is more than one river in the Riverlands, right?

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

all it says is that she was with him but we have no idea what state he was in at the time or where they were when the news was given to him . They could have been on a walk or eating dinner or just hanging out not to mention that they had sex that night so he could not have too bad off .

dude, you are grasping right now. can you not admit that from the available evidence it reads like Robb was still injured when he heard the news about his brothers?

and if it was so quick to heal, why does it take so long for Robb to return home? 

[Universal Sword Donor]

I know I am late to this party, but the Golden Tooth didn't have the entire 4000 person army commanded by Forley Prester.First; did Ser Forley

Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

So just based on text we know that the golden tooth is a small castle -- couple of hundred in the garrison like RR? -- and "many" of the veterans went to Stafford. I'd guess that there at most 1000 men in or around the Golden Tooth, but that's just my gut feeling.

[Chancho]

You could be right at not 4000, but Martyn only say many, its know that is the border castle, in times of war that literally should be the most guarded place since it border the war zone, doubt there is less then 1000 men there, not everone need to camp inside...anyway enough walls, bowmens and castle defenses to Robb only horses army avoid, placing there is great, Robb would find buring casualties there. 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I know I am late to this party, but the Golden Tooth didn't have the entire 4000 person army commanded by Forley Prester.First; did Ser Forley

Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

So just based on text we know that the golden tooth is a small castle -- couple of hundred in the garrison like RR? -- and "many" of the veterans went to Stafford. I'd guess that there at most 1000 men in or around the Golden Tooth, but that's just my gut feeling.

 

[Blackfish Tully]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

and if it was so quick to heal, why does it take so long for Robb to return home? 

it's 600 miles from the Crag to Riverrun (your numbers not mine ) that's a massive amount of ground to cover . Robb has just gotten married and he needs to collect his men who are scattered across the Westerlands and  make his way out of the Westerlands and with Jeyne along he will not be able to push it to hard . The timeline shows that it was about 5 weeks between Robb's marriage and his return to Riverrun so it really did not take him to long to get there considering he had to travel 600 miles through mostly enemy territory and carrying his wife and all her crap  along . 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

dude, you are grasping right now. can you not admit that from the available evidence it reads like Robb was still injured when he heard the news about his brothers?

 

we did not have a POV in the Westerlands so making any kind of definite statement about what went down there is really problematic , if you want to believe that Robb would have still been bed ridden after Tywin covered 600 miles to get to the Crag go ahead. 

 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

it is actually less than 600, but I rounded up. there is over a 150 mile difference between the distances from Riverrun to the Crag and Riverrun to Kings Landing. The Crag is nearer. 

around a similar amount of time it took Tywin to get to kings landing

 

 so Tywin floating down the River from Tumbler Falls to half a day of Kings Landing did not cut his trip dramatically?   How long do you think it took him to float his army down the river on barges versus him having to force march his men 500 or so miles .

 Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear."

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 hours ago, Chancho said:

You could be right at not 4000, but Martyn only say many, its know that is the border castle, in times of war that literally should be the most guarded place since it border the war zone, doubt there is less then 1000 men there, not everone need to camp inside...anyway enough walls, bowmens and castle defenses to Robb only horses army avoid, placing there is great, Robb would find buring casualties there. 

 

Yeah not really debating that there couldn't be more but that they would need to fit in the relatively small castle for the most part makes sense. They are either camping in the pass, blocking traffic, or they are in the castle. The terrain itself -- quite mountainous with only the pass --  does not lend itself to large, fortified camps. Blocking the pass with the troops would make more sense though, akin to the way Tywin had near the Green Fork